Crossing the Bridge of Hope

[Through_Him]

That is true Jesus spoke of the hour a lot and said we don’t know when the hour will be. Example the second coming. So the hope. It bothers me he is thinking of a void. Where is he getting this idea?

 

[Truthstalker]

That is true Jesus spoke of the hour a lot and said we don’t know when the hour will be. Example the second coming. So the hope. It bothers me he is thinking of a void. Where is he getting this idea?

I’m not sure what you mean. Sin has cut us off from God. To go beyond that is to get off topic. Whether the gap is a distance of one foot or is not even distance, it is still something man cannot cross on its own.

And I would appreciate it if you would address me directly, rather than writing about me in the third person. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Truthstalker]

You’ve said it yourself - you can choose.

Calvinistic predestination takes away your choice and the value of your response.
God prepares good works for us, He gives us actual grace to perform those works, but He also give us the free will to choose to act on His gifts or not.
He calls and as everyone knows, nobody comes to Him unless He draws them, but ultimately its our choice to respond or not, or, to respond well or not so well.
Predestination-for-all must remove all of that, and I cannot believe that when all those people who asked Christ - what they must do to be saved - that He told them, you are predestined to hell, there is no hope for you. What He actually told them was to DO what He said and they would be saved. Not, you are already saved but if its ok with you do what I say.
Their salvation was, He said - not me, dependant on their actions, their response, - this do, and thou shalt live.

It is a both-and. We choose AND there is predestination. Not just one. Not just the other. It is like light acting like a wave and a particle. We choose, and we choose freely, but God is still in control. Anything less than that is short of the truth.

 

[Thing]

It is a both-and. We choose AND there is predestination. Not just one. Not just the other. It is like light acting like a wave and a particle. We choose, and we choose freely, but God is still in control. Anything less than that is short of the truth.

If you are predestined for something then you cannot fail.

If you can choose to fail you then cannot be predestined, though, if you choose to succeed you will succeed because help is guaranteed.

Whenever someone asks Christ what they must DO to have Eternal Life, He tells the what they must DO - if they were predestined it would not matter what they did. And from the stories we know that some of those who asked did not DO what they were told they needed to DO - at least, not straight away as far as we know.

 

[Truthstalker]

If you are predestined for something then you cannot fail.

If you can choose to fail you then cannot be predestined, though, if you choose to succeed you will succeed because help is guaranteed.

Whenever someone asks Christ what they must DO to have Eternal Life, He tells the what they must DO - if they were predestined it would not matter what they did. And from the stories we know that some of those who asked did not DO what they were told they needed to DO - at least, not straight away as far as we know.

I have difficulty seeing how what you have written squares with the Catholic Catechism pp 300-314. The CC seems weak on the subject of predestination, probably because of the disagreement between the Thomists and the Molinists.

 

[Thing]

I have difficulty seeing how what you have written squares with the Catholic Catechism pp 300-314. The CC seems weak on the subject of predestination, probably because of the disagreement between the Thomists and the Molinists.

Theres a few bits below from the CCC you cited;

If you are predestined for something then you cannot fail.
&
If you can choose to fail you then cannot be predestined, [This is just logic, I think, assuming you’ve made that choice]

“…though, if you choose to succeed you will succeed because help is guaranteed.”
[Which is the same as saying; 306…But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation…For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.]
Remembering all the while that we are free creatures and not preprogramed creatures;
311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world.

 

[manualman]

Not all Calvinists accept double predestination (which is the belief that God deliberately selects some for heaven and deliberately selects others for hell. I think Catholics accept single predestination, in which God selects some to be saved and passes over the rest.

Is it our choice to be saved? Will those in heaven crow over those in hell, boasting that they chose rightly? I don’t think so.

Actually He said “your faith have saved you.” And we know that faith is a gift from God. In Catholic theology there is prevenient or actual grace, which is given before human right action can occur. Only with God’s action can we be saved; without it we are lost.

Here (in bold) is what I mentioned earlier and you mocked me for presenting as a straw man. Here’s my catholic answer:

1. Yes, it IS our choice whether to accept or reject the gift of salvation.
2. No, those in heaven are, by definition, finished with sanctification and no longer vulnerable to the fallen human temptation to pride and arrogance. They have the proper perspective on freedom, sin, redemption and sanctification and know they’ve got nothing to “crow” about anyways. Are you one of those “covered sin” protestant guys by chance?
3. God offers the gift of salvation to EVERYONE, not just a few chosen. True, being outside of time itself, he knows who will accept the gift and who won’t. And He has selected this outcome as acceptable for His purposes. That’s not the same thing as Calvinists seem to mean by “predestination” in my experience.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

And what is the source of those pious dispositions? Are not these things that God works in us?

Before we can will to do good God works in us. Before we can choose to will to do good He has already acted on our will so we can choose and so we can will.

To say that we can will good on our own, apart from the grace of God, is to come very, very close to a Pelagian position.

God wants all men to be saved. We are all his creations. His grace reaches out to all men through the Holy Spirit, which convicts the world of sin. Jesus says that he draws all men to himself.

We must accept and cooperate with this grace of God to be saved. We can’t be saved without God’s grace, but God’s grace does not condemn anyone.

 

[Truthstalker]

Again, can we ever choose on our own without God’s help? It seems to me you are taking a Pelagian position.

 

[Thing]

Again, can we ever choose on our own without God’s help? It seems to me you are taking a Pelagian position.

Pelagius denied Original Sin. You will not find someone who is Catholic who also denies original sin.
Because Pelagius denied it his views reduced to the person ‘saving himself’ by just being a Nice Person.

In Catholicism Christs Sacrifice is essential, no-one can save themselves.
God gave us the gift of Free Will.
If He did not give us the gift of free will nobody could choose to do wrong. So, nobody would be guilty of any sin, and we would not need a Saviour - we all would just go straight to heaven.

But God did give us Free Will, we cannot save ourselves, but we can choose Christ - who is able to save us. We can also reject Christ, and so, reject salvation.

“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” - Melito of Sardis, died 180 AD

 

[Through_Him]

Again, can we ever choose on our own without God’s help? It seems to me you are taking a Pelagian position.

God enables us to have faith.
You may start the day without prayer or with prayer.
A person can start a company and build a business with out prayer to God or with prayer to God.
He blesses both but with is the path to heaven.

 

[Truthstalker]

You will not find someone who is Catholic who also denies original sin.

There are plenty of Catholics who are totally ignorant of Catholicism, or do not believe it. There are many on this Forum, for example.

Do you agree that if we choose to follow Christ, it is His gift to us, rather than something we do in our own power?

If it takes His grace and our cooperation, and we are brutally honest about our own ability to cooperate, we have no hope.

 

[notsmart]

Do you agree that if we choose to follow Christ, it is His gift to us, rather than something we do in our own power?

 

[Thing]

There are plenty of Catholics who are totally ignorant of Catholicism, or do not believe it. There are many on this Forum, for example. (I said deliberately ‘someone who is Catholic, not someone who is ignorant’)

Do you agree that if we choose to follow Christ, it is His gift to us, rather than something we do in our own power?

If it takes His grace and our cooperation, and we are brutally honest about our own ability to cooperate, we have no hope.

Our co-operation is simply to will the thing.
If we cannot even do that much, you’re right, there is not much hope.

 

[Through_Him]

There are plenty of Catholics who are totally ignorant of Catholicism, or do not believe it. There are many on this Forum, for example.

Do you agree that if we choose to follow Christ, it is His gift to us, rather than something we do in our own power?**
Are you saying that God gives us the choice to follow him or not to follow him, if you are then I say he gives us all the power to follow or reject. But that power to reject actually is our own flesh and pride which comes from the original sin. Why would God give someone a gift to reject him? The gift of faith is the seed planted. Yes this is not our power. But even Judas had the gift of faith but his power was to misuse towards greed. No?**

If it takes His grace and our cooperation, and we are brutally honest about our own ability to cooperate, we have no hope.

 

[Through_Him]

Now just to put in a disagreement with my own post. My husband thinks Judas wasn’t given the gift of faith at all. We disagree on this.

 

[notsmart]

Now just to put in a disagreement with my own post. My husband thinks Judas wasn’t given the gift of faith at all. We disagree on this.

I think it depends on what your husband means specifically.
If he means, that Judas’ faith was Not strong enough to obey Jesus and to accept the teaching of the eucharist, then I agree with him that while he could have had faith that Jesus was the Messiah to originally follow him, it was a faith that did not grow, it withered and died when he was unable to accept that teaching. That does not mean though, that he did not possibly repent before death. We don’t know. He may have realized that his sin, as great as it was could be forgiven- and if that happened then I am sure it was.

 

[Truthstalker]

Our co-operation is simply to will the thing.
If we cannot even do that much, you’re right, there is not much hope.

I am speculating that Catholics would agree that whatever cooperation we have is a gift from God.

Jesus is the way, the truth, the light, the bridge. He is our salvation. We are not our own saviors, nor our own salvation. To say that we are saved because we choose it to me means that we become our own saviors. The choice is then entirely in our own hands. God no longer is sovereign.

In contrast, those who are saved were predestined before the foundation of the world. Our salvation is like a mountain, to which we cannot add even a pebble. When we have done all, we are still unworthy servants.

Everything we have and are is a gift from God. Everything. Even our cooperation is a gift - God went before it to give us the grace to cooperate.

 

[Thing]

I am speculating that Catholics would agree that whatever cooperation we have is a gift from God.

Jesus is the way, the truth, the light, the bridge. He is our salvation. We are not our own saviors, nor our own salvation. To say that we are saved because we choose it to me means that we become our own saviors. The choice is then entirely in our own hands. God no longer is sovereign.

In contrast, those who are saved were predestined before the foundation of the world. Our salvation is like a mountain, to which we cannot add even a pebble. When we have done all, we are still unworthy servants.

Everything we have and are is a gift from God. Everything. Even our cooperation is a gift - God went before it to give us the grace to cooperate.

I will go back to Adam and Eve for a sec., if God gave them the gift of choosing Him - and so being saved, why is it that the Holy Scriptures record them as having chosen against God - is man more powerful than Gods will for us to choose Him?

 

[Truthstalker]

I will go back to Adam and Eve for a sec., if God gave them the gift of choosing Him - and so being saved, why is it that the Holy Scriptures record them as having chosen against God - is man more powerful than Gods will for us to choose Him?

Adam had free choice. What happened then was under a different covenant (leave the fruit alone and everything will be ok) as opposed to the one we experience, where we are rescued from the fall by Christ.

I think you are begging the question. Did God give them that gift? We do not know.

God is more powerful than anyone else. Surely you do not believe man to be more powerful than God?

Any good man does is the result of what God has done in him. If we cooperate, it is because He has worked it in us.

Nonetheless, we are responsible for our own actions. We are powerful enough to truly rebel against God, yet not so powerful as to save ourselves from our sin.