Crossing the Bridge of Hope

[Nita]

I.

Jesus is the way, the truth, the light, the bridge. He is our salvation. We are not our own saviors, nor our own salvation. To say that we are saved because we choose it to me means that we become our own saviors. The choice is then entirely in our own hands. God no longer is sovereign.

.

We **are ****saved because we choose **to believe and accept Jesus. It **does not mean **we are our own saviors.

If you have an operable tumor that would be fatal if not removed by a surgeon, you are free to choose to have the surgery or not to have it. If you choose the surgeon and surgery, you will live – but it was not you who saved your life (who deserves the credit for the action/surgery that saved your life). If you had wanted to live and desired surgery, but chose not let the surgeon near you, you’d be deader than a doornail. Choice is critical, but either way - it’s only the surgeon who does the actual life saving surgery.

Nita

 

[Thing]

…Nonetheless, we are responsible for our own actions. We are powerful enough to truly rebel against God, yet not so powerful as to save ourselves from our sin.

If we can choose to reject God and His will for us and so, lose Life. Then we can also choose God freely, and live?
Is His will for us more powerfull than our own will?
Certainly, it could be, if He wanted it to be. But He does not want to do violence to our freedom. Its not that He cannot, but that He will not.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I am speculating that Catholics would agree that whatever cooperation we have is a gift from God.

 

[Truthstalker]

Maybe we are getting somewhere.

How about:

If we choose to be saved, it is because of the action of God.
If we choose to reject Christ, it is our own fault.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Maybe we are getting somewhere.

How about:

If we choose to be saved, it is because of the action of God.
If we choose to reject Christ, it is our own fault.

We have the opportunity to be saved thanks to the action of God. He doesn’t force us to be saved.

God wants all men to choose to be saved.

 

[Truthstalker]

We have the opportunity to be saved thanks to the action of God. He doesn’t force us to be saved.

God wants all men to choose to be saved.

I agree with all three of these statements.

I have also been reading about prevenient grace. Before we can respond to God properly, He works in us. Only some respond to Him properly. I think you are arguing that prevenient grace is only effective in some cases.

I also wonder if you and some others accept predestination as a Catholic doctrine, or if you ignore it for 100% free will.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I agree with all three of these statements.

I have also been reading about prevenient grace. Before we can respond to God properly, He works in us. Only some respond to Him properly. I think you are arguing that prevenient grace is only effective in some cases.

I also wonder if you and some others accept predestination as a Catholic doctrine, or if you ignore it for 100% free will.

The grace is the same in all cases. As free creatures, we will not all respond identically to God’s grace.

I belive Molinism offers the best explanation.

God knows what our responses will be to the situations that confront us and he also knows what our responses would have been in situations which never confront us.

God chooses those who freely accept his grace, but he doesn’t force our hand.

God has predestined those who he sees will follow his will.

Our destiny is known to God.

He doesn’t choose individuals for heaven or hell withour regard to their decisions on earth.

 

[Truthstalker]

The grace is the same in all cases. As free creatures, we will not all respond identically to God’s grace.

I belive Molinism offers the best explanation.

God knows what our responses will be to the situations that confront us and he also knows what our responses would have been in situations which never confront us.

God chooses those who freely accept his grace, but he doesn’t force our hand.

God has predestined those who he sees will follow his will.

Our destiny is known to God.

He doesn’t choose individuals for heaven or hell withour regard to their decisions on earth.

I am more than a little confused by your position. First, by your moniker: from GKC’s book on Aquinas I would have thought GKC a Thomist, and so you would be. Secondly you seem to be defending Molinism at the expense of Catholicism. Some of what I have stated is actually acceptable, to my knowledge, to a Thomist. You have discounted accepted Catholic belief in favor of Molinism, seeking to promote the latter at the expense of the former. I think that is unacceptable apologetics and has confused this thread. Please distinguish between accepted Thomist beliefs and Molinist beliefs if you wish to defend Catholicism. I suspect you have studied both and may be able to make a case for how this thread’s concept fits (or doesn’t) with Thomism, a part of Catholicism, instead of making it seem like all Catholics are Molinist, which would be a false representation.

As I understand it Catholics have been told both Molinism and Thomism are accepted Catholic belief. Catholics wishing to do apologetics surely recognize that.

Predestination and foreknowledge are separate concepts.