Crossing your arms at Communion

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Is there a better, official, reference to that than You Tube? Hopefully one substantiates the “we” in his statement.
Cardinal Arinze was the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation For Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. I believe that his opinion here, even though in this relaxed setting, is worthy of respect, since he was the head of the Sacred Congregation in Rome that studied the matter at that time. He has more knowledge and understanding than any of us about the subject. So to answer your question if there is “a better, official reference than YouTube?” The only answer that I can suggest is to quote Cardinal Arinze , “There is no liturgical directive for it, and no liturgical directive against it.”
 
Cardinal Arinze was the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation For Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. I believe that his opinion here, even though in this relaxed setting, is worthy of respect, since he was the head of the Sacred Congregation in Rome that studied the matter at that time. He has more knowledge and understanding than any of us about the subject. So to answer your question if there is “a better, official reference than YouTube?” The only answer that I can suggest is to quote Cardinal Arinze , “There is no liturgical directive for it, and no liturgical directive against it.”
When I want accurate information I certainly don’t go to You Tube. I consider Pope Francis to be as reliable a source as we can possibly have but look at how much controversy his off the cuff airplane interview comments generate.

Fr. David presented clear, concise citations that blessing in the communion line was not an approved practice, that is in writing, official, so why should I dump that in favor of what I gather was a relatively informal interview?

I think if the Catholic Church was a competative business enterprise not protected by God it would be a total disaster with the fractured hierarchy that it presently seems to have.
 
When I want accurate information I certainly don’t go to You Tube. I consider Pope Francis to be as reliable a source as we can possibly have but look at how much controversy his off the cuff airplane interview comments generate.

Fr. David presented clear, concise citations that blessing in the communion line was not an approved practice, that is in writing, official, so why should I dump that in favor of what I gather was a relatively informal interview?

I think if the Catholic Church was a competative business enterprise not protected by God it would be a total disaster with the fractured hierarchy that it presently seems to have.
When I want accurate information I go to the experts. So when you want accurate information, you don’t go to YouTube even if what is recorded is coming from the mouth of one of those experts. But you have no problem trusting the words coming from an anonymous, faceless Reverend poster on a discussion board?? 🤷
 
When I want accurate information I go to the experts. So when you want accurate information, you don’t go to YouTube even if what is recorded is coming from the mouth of one of those experts. But you have no problem trusting the words coming from an anonymous, faceless Reverend poster on a discussion board?? 🤷
For each document I quoted, I provided a hyperlink to the Vatican website so that anyone could read the original source. In fact, while those documents are available widely around the internet, I very specifically chose to provide links to the Vatican’s own website.

That’s considerably different from the way you caricature my post in your above remarks.

Do you find any inconsistencies between the words I posted and the actual texts found on the Vatican website, or in any other printing of these Church documents? These documents are a matter of public record. Anyone can read them either online or in print version. By all means, if you find that I have misquoted anything, point that out for all to see.

As far as a credible source is concerned, I submit the following for anyone to consider:

On the one hand, the official document (a Constitution, no less) of an ecumenical council; not some ancient text, but the Second Vatican Council; a relatively recent papal encyclical; and an official Instruction from the Congregation for Divine Worship.

Those words from the Second Vatican Council have been repeated, reiterated, and reinforced time and time again in every significant Church document relating to the Mass for the past 50 years.

The same words (though paraphrased rather than quoted) are found in Canon 838, which likewise, anyone can read here vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2S.HTM

On the other hand, an offhand remark posted on youtube.

Which set of sources should be considered the more authoritative?

You posted this:
When I want accurate information I go to the experts
So, are we to take it that you do not consider these Church documents to have been written by experts? Which ones are not experts? The Ecumenical Council, Pope John Paul II?
 
For each document I quoted, I provided a hyperlink to the Vatican website so that anyone could read the original source. In fact, while those documents are available widely around the internet, I very specifically chose to provide links to the Vatican’s own website.

That’s considerably different from the way you caricature my post in your above remarks.

Do you find any inconsistencies between the words I posted and the actual texts found on the Vatican website, or in any other printing of these Church documents? These documents are a matter of public record. Anyone can read them either online or in print version. By all means, if you find that I have misquoted anything, point that out for all to see.

As far as a credible source is concerned, I submit the following for anyone to consider:

On the one hand, the official document (a Constitution, no less) of an ecumenical council; not some ancient text, but the Second Vatican Council; a relatively recent papal encyclical; and an official Instruction from the Congregation for Divine Worship.

Those words from the Second Vatican Council have been repeated, reiterated, and reinforced time and time again in every significant Church document relating to the Mass for the past 50 years.

The same words (though paraphrased rather than quoted) are found in Canon 838, which likewise, anyone can read here vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2S.HTM

On the other hand, an offhand remark posted on youtube.

Which set of sources should be considered the more authoritative?

You posted this:

So, are we to take it that you do not consider these Church documents to have been written by experts? Which ones are not experts? The Ecumenical Council, Pope John Paul II?
The point of my post was not to insult you nor any of us board members who post links to documents etc. My post was intended to note the irony of the poster whose remark , “When I want accurate information, I certainly don’t go to YouTube.” It doesn’t make sense to me that the poster doesn’t have any problem accepting the commentary of words of an anonymous poster on an internet discussion board, but he scoffs at a YouTube video recording the words of the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments talking about this very topic. Cardinal Arinze was part of that Vatican discussion. And if he says that they discussed it and decided not to say anything about it and leave the decision to the bishops, I don’t take that as an “off hand remark”.
 
Stripping this down to the bare wood; do we really want a Catholic Church in which the rules, even those regulating the Mass, are determined by every individual Archdiocese, potentially every parish? How long before we become unrecognizable as different from Protestantism and all its variations? I don’t think I’m unusual for wanting some sense of tradition, structure and discipline in the religion I choose to adopt and that includes both theology and ritual.
 
I can’t just sit by and keep reading. I must say something here

You’ve posted repeatedly about obedience to the local bishop

What about obedience to the Church? Why does that go by the wayside?
Father, I am now going to make myself **absolutely and positively crystal clear to you **since I seem to have failed to make myself sufficiently precise heretofore

I’ve resisted doing this but you force the issue. So let us say this all now very clearly and openly

You’ve cited in previous posts a letter to a private individual written by Father Anthony Ward, who has been a fine undersecretary of the CDWDS but who wrote a letter to a private individual, whom I will not here name, that was not an official response of the CDWDS – and you know that is so. Father said that an official response will be forthcoming – and we’re still awaiting it. Father has been a fine priest of the Society of Mary and a fine person

I assume you know, although you perhaps may not, that bishops of various dioceses sought of Pope Benedict a clarification on the issue of blessings during the Communion procession. His Holiness – whom I hasten to add himself imparted these blessings and also spoke positively of them – chose to leave the matter as an unanswered question throughout his papacy

On the other hand, I have in my posts cited the man who is now the undersecrtary’s superior: His Grace, Archbishop Arthur Roche. And, Father, you cannot, in point of fact, not know that this is actually the official of whom we are speaking

Let me re-state what I have posted so it may be perfectly clear to readers of this thread
*From the forward on Page V of Celebrating the Mass:

“Celebrating the Mass” will be of great assistance to both communities and individuals /…/

Rt. Rev. Arthur Roche, Bishop of Leeds, Chairman of the Department for Christian Life and Worship *
In the document he promulgated, Celebrating the Mass: A Pastoral Introduction, which was published by the Bishops Conference to address matters and provide clarification on the Mass, we read in Number 212, page 95, we read:
Even though some in the assembly may not receive ‘sacramental’ Communion, all are united in some way by the Holy Spirit. The traditional idea of ‘spiritual’ communion is an important one to remember and reaffirm. The invitation often given at Mass to those who may not receive sacramental communion – for example children before their First Communion and adults who are not Catholics – to receive a ‘blessing’ at the moment of Communion emphasises that a deep spiritual communion is possible even when we do not share together the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ
The Bishop of Leeds is, by the gift of His Holiness Pope Francis, now the number two official of the Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments

Unless, Father David, you are in fact Pope Francis or you are Robert Cardinal Sarah, the Archbishop is now, the supreme authority after those two, on matters of divine worship, the liturgy and administration of the sacraments

You are a priest, Father David. I presume that your priestly formation, as mine many many years ago, included how to submit a dubium to the Holy See

I invited you very kindly in a previous thread to submit a dubium on this very issue

But what you have chosen to write to me on the Catholic Answers Forum has inspired to myself write directly to His Grace, appealing that what is the determination for the United Kingdom, that was published over His Grace’s signature, would now be extended by His Grace to your country as well to the Church across the globe

Thank you, Father David, for your post which inspired me to send this email to His Grace. I am also sending a copy of what you yourself have written above, along with this response from me, so that His Grace may have a sample of what is being written by a priest in the United States, and the tenor employed, on a public forum, on the issue of blessings given in the Communion processions and how this matter is being handled in other English speaking countries, such as the United States, in the hope that the easiest resolution is in fact to simply extend the provision of the United Kingdom

And yes, I am insistent that since we are speaking of a matter that is a dubium, and of people who are not sure what to do – be it those who are extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion or those who are ineligible to receive Communion – the only proper response is fully to comply with and submit themselves to the norms of their local bishop…just as I trust, Father, you yourself submit yourself to ANY directive of your bishop in all things he legislates concerning the liturgy or any other matter – just as indeed I follow with the very greatest precision whatever is the directive of my own bishop and my own conference of bishops without any question whatsoever or even the expression of a doubt or a preference other than what the bishops declare

I gladly stand to defend His Grace…an excellent prelate whom the Pope raised to the very highest levels in the hierarchy and to whom all priests will have to submit in complete obedience on matters of divine worship and the discipline of the sacraments…be they priests in the United States or anywhere else
So, I must repeat my initial question: why advocate so strongly for obedience to the local bishop, while at the same time advocating for (what amounts objectively to) a disobedience to the Catholic Church?
Father, if you have a problem with what your bishops published on ANY matter, then instead of writing me, you should write to them. It’s my experience that bishops will explain to you – and copy your bishop so that your bishop may make sure that you have understood them
 
Stripping this down to the bare wood; do we really want a Catholic Church in which the rules, even those regulating the Mass, are determined by every individual Archdiocese, potentially every parish? How long before we become unrecognizable as different from Protestantism and all its variations? I don’t think I’m unusual for wanting some sense of tradition, structure and discipline in the religion I choose to adopt and that includes both theology and ritual.
That so overly states the issue that it may be in the running for exaggeration of the week.

There seems to be a feeling among some which could be best identified as ultramontanism. Not all issues are defined to their very last jot and tittle. Rome has seen fit to provide some leeway to bishop conferences, and in some circumstances to individual bishops, within the liturgical guidelines and rules.

It is not an insignificant leeway, but it certainly does not toss out the whole of the GIRM. To give an example, the universal norm has people standing much earlier after the Consecration than does the indult to the United States. It may be a bit disconcerting if one is traveling either to or from the US to another area, but it is hardly earth shaking.

So the comment asking how long before we become unrecognizable from Protestantism comes across as if implying that bishops were only to be mid level managers in a grand bureaucracy, unfit and unable to exercise any authority whatsoever in liturgical matters.

2,000 years ago, the Apostles went out across the known earth, and from them and their successors, we find something in the range of 25 or so different liturgies; however, I know of no one who knows the least about these liturgies who would think they are a result of Protestantism. And if the Catholic Church can manage liturgies as different as Ruthenian Rite Byzantine and the Ordinary Form, I would suspect that US Catholics could survive whether or not a bishop would like children, and non-Catholics, and even Catholics to receive a blessing during Communion.

After knowing three auxiliary bishops and 7 archbishops in my own archdiocese (two of whom were later made Cardinals, one of whom was put in charge of the CDF), I have not found them to be incompetent in liturgical matters, nor have they attempted to overstep the boundaries of authority which Rome has granted them in such.

I find it bemusing that if minor matters, and relatively few in number, are ceded by Rome to the local bishop, someone would fear chaos in tradition, structure and discipline in the religion (they) choose to adopt and (one) that includes both theology and ritual.

I understand that Trent moved to regularize the liturgy. However, the minimal amount of leeway granted to bishops (such as whether the congregation stands or kneels during the Domine non sum dignus) is most definitely not going to devolve into a free-for-all mutation of the liturgy, and I sincerely doubt that anyone is going to mistake the Mass for a Protestant service when experiencing such variation. Or, for that matter, whether or not children and non-Catholics can approach for a blessing during Communion. Or heaven forbid, a Catholic who for whatever reason is not receiving. Neither the standing/kneeling nor the blessing decision is going to destroy any tradition, theology, ritual, structure, or discipline. Nor should it be a source of loss of peace of mind - hyperbole notwithstanding.
 
Stripping this down to the bare wood; do we really want a Catholic Church in which the rules, even those regulating the Mass, are determined by every individual Archdiocese, potentially every parish? How long before we become unrecognizable as different from Protestantism and all its variations? I don’t think I’m unusual for wanting some sense of tradition, structure and discipline in the religion I choose to adopt and that includes both theology and ritual.
To even make such a statement reveals that you do not understand how particular law, enacted by the diocesan bishop, is integrated into the observance and compliance with universal law and how the two are distinct but also operate in harmony.
 
Thank you, dear priests, for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Honestly, as a layperson, I see the essential problem as this: many dioceses and parishes seem to believe that blessing people in communion lines is allowed; many do not. The true problem, though, is the confusion this confers on the laity. If a layperson in persistent mortal sin is used to being allowed to receive a blessing due to not being able to receive the Eucharist then visits or moves to a diocese and/or parish that does not allow such blessings to be conferred, then he/she will believe that an injustice has been done to him/her. This would be even more the case if he/she returns to his/her home parish and asks the pastor what happened.

There is nothing more confusing to the laity (especially the fairly mobile laity that we have in the US) than our shepherds arguing about what is allowed at Mass and what isn’t. Other than language, homily, and allowed options for the Penitential Rite/sprinkling, readings (if applicable on a specific Sunday), Eucharistic prayer, profession of faith, and Memorial Acclamation, an Ordinary Form Mass in any given parish on any given Sunday should be the same. And they should be the same regardless of where we are in the world. What is mandatory should be mandatory, what is encouraged should be encouraged, what is merely permitted should be left up to the individual pastors and bishops, and what is not allowed should be not allowed. And if the Holy See has not decided on an issue, pastors should be very careful about encouraging the practice, as many, many people will be upset if what they see as a “right” being “taken away”.
Why? Why do think they “should be the same”?

In Canada and in Europe beyond the United States, the gesture of kneeling is different from in the United States. Personally, I do think, if anything, that the Americans should be made to conform to the practice in Europe: to kneel only from the epiclesis to the mystery of faith. I find the American practice of kneeling throughout the anaphora but then standing for the Our Father disconcerting but provision has preserved it.

In Africa, too, there are very different gestures used for the liturgy plus the presence of liturgical dance which greatly enhances the liturgical celebration.

I see no reason for excessive conformity at all but rather latitude for different cultures and practices.

Personally, I greet very happily an increased devolution on liturgical matters…consistent with the principle and the concept of subsidiarity.

I have never had a problem, when I visit a diocese, asking if the bishop has any mandate about blessing in the Communion procession. I have had only a hand full of occasions where there is a prohibition of some sort – a few occasions where the bishop has directed that the one imparting the blessing is to be an ordinary minister of Communion.

I will say that there were a practice or two introduced by a few American bishops in dioceses I was invited and visited that raised my eyebrow as a professor of liturgy and sacraments, as the practice was of dubious provenance at best – it had nothing to do with blessings in the Communion procession over which I have never had even the slightest qualm – but the directive was, of course, carried out by me…although I do remember an instance over tea of saying to the bishop that the mandate was rather “remarkable” in light of such and such that I won’t write. He shrugged his shoulders and said “I mandated it” to which I said “And that is exactly why I did it and would not have thought of not doing it…even if we can agree it is remarkable”. There the matter was left and the conversation went to some other topic…

I think it’s frankly a gross mis-characterisation to say that the bishops are arguing about blessings. I have heard them discuss it. The most vocal was at the 2005 synod of bishops…and I would not call that anything approaching an argument. Outside of one priest on the Catholic Answers Forum, I have never had any sense of argument from a cleric at all.

Dioceses do arrive at different praxis but I have seen that on various things over the decades. As I have said, I have been invited to say Mass in dioceses where the bishop allows Extraordinary Ministers to give the blessing, dioceses where he reserves it to Ordinary Ministers, dioceses where the practice is “discouraged”, dioceses where the practice is forbidden (I can only think of two of these) and in most places, actually, I get a shrug and/or a wave of the hand with the statement “Do as you please.”

I have never met a priest who seemed particularly passionate about either the topic or what the bishop mandated and I simply conform to the bishop’s policy. In the United Kingdom, it is very straightforward thanks to the bishops’ conference that it is to be done and the same is true in Europe, though on the continent, there is a different gesture which I much prefer – and it is the one that is actually used at papal Masses.

The whole thing is remarkably straightforward and civil, actually, and of very minimal fuss.
 
Father, I am now going to make myself **absolutely and positively crystal clear to you **since I seem to have failed to make myself sufficiently precise heretofore…
[post too long to quote in full]
A) General norms
    1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
  1. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.
  2. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.
Second Vatican Council

Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

More recently

[28.] All liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the recognitio, without which they lack any binding force.

Redemptionis Sacramentum
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

If the Church’s position on this matter has changed, by all means, prove it to me.
 
It’s no wonder the FSSP and SSPX congregations continues to grow!
 
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