Crossroads: Anglican vs Catholicism

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simonz

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I’m at the crossroad between two similar faiths: Anglican Church of America vs Catholicism. I have available to me a Catholic RCIA program and a welcoming RC Parish; I also have an Anglican Church in America Parish which is very inviting. I’m not sure which way to go. This is a Catholic forum so I expect lots of people to say to go with the Catholics. The Anglican Church is NOT the Episcopal, but the Orthodox Anglicans.

Actually, coming from an Episcopal Protestant background I like the idea of the Anglican Church because the Catholic emphasis on Mary is very troubling to me. The Anglicans use the Book of Common Prayer and a General Confession (prayer), with appeals to me. The Catholics seem to have a clearer historical line back to the Apostles.

My gut feeling is that they are both pretty much the same and I should go with the church that seems to fit best with me. Any thoughts?

Which should I go with?
 
I think you need to ask yourself what you believe about the nature of the Church. Are you a High Church Anglican? Do you believe in Transubstantiation? Do you believe that God would allow the Church to go astray and neccessitate the Reformation?

One of the reasons that it would be difficult for me to be an Anglican is that Anglicans have the option of believing in the Real Presence of Christ. I truly appreciate the unity of the Catholic Church that, no matter what Mass I attend, all the faithful are approaching the Body and Blood of Christ and should not be doing so in good conscience if they believe otherwise.

As for your concerns about Marian devotion, have you read informed Catholic apologetics on the issue? I am a firm believer that an informed and proper Mariology always leads to a higher Christology. I would also say that it is true that some place too much emphasis on Marian devotion. Marian devotion is not mandatory, it is a devotion that occurs largely in the private lives of Catholics. What ever prayers are offered to Mary, Catholics always engage in the most important and highest of all prayers directly and without intercession to Christ- the Holy Mass. Every week we are mystically untied in spirit and flesh to the Savior as we pray with Him to God the Father.

Another concern I would have about being an Anglican is that the decision would alienate me from a clear sense of historic continuity. At least in some sense, the heritage of the early Church and the richness of medieval spirituality would not feel fully my own.

Just some thoughts.
 
simonz said:
I’m at the crossroad between two similar faiths: Anglican Church of America vs Catholicism. I have available to me a Catholic RCIA program and a welcoming RC Parish; I also have an Anglican Church in America Parish which is very inviting. I’m not sure which way to go. This is a Catholic forum so I expect lots of people to say to go with the Catholics. The Anglican Church is NOT the Episcopal, but the Orthodox Anglicans.

Actually, coming from an Episcopal Protestant background I like the idea of the Anglican Church because the Catholic emphasis on Mary is very troubling to me. The Anglicans use the Book of Common Prayer and a General Confession (prayer), with appeals to me. The Catholics seem to have a clearer historical line back to the Apostles.

My gut feeling is that they are both pretty much the same and I should go with the church that seems to fit best with me. Any thoughts?

Which should I go with?
Click to expand...
I’m not ACA, but I’m in a similar situation; A Continuing Anglican, which is what the ACA is, also. Which way you go depends greatly on what your understanding of the Church is. If you agree that the Papal office possesses universal ordinary authority and the Pope possesses the personal charism of infallibility, then there is no question where you should go. Swim the Tiber. If you have issues with Marian doctrine, you may not be completely at ease in the ACA, either. Many Continuing parishes are quite Anglo-Catholic on such matters. I attended Evensong tonight, and we sang the Angelus, as usual. As to confession, all Anglican churches make provision for personal auricular confession; check the BCP.

And if *Apostolicae Curae *convinces you that Anglican clergy do not possess valid orders, in Apostolic succession, then again, you should be looking for some water wings. Me, I’m convinced otherwise.

In short, a lot depends on a lot of details in your beliefs.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
Jordan Francis,

Posts at the same time, opening with the same thought.

GKC
 
Having been a member of ACA, I can tell you that many of the parishes tend to venerate Mary a lot, and most likely they’ll be very vocal about their love of Mary. In my particular parish, we said the Angelus at our social hour after Mass every Sunday. Also, what do you believe about the Eucharist? Since you’re considering Catholicism as well I’m assuming you believe it’s the true Body and Blood of Christ. An ACA parish would most likely (or at least should, I can’t speak for all parishes) teach the same belief (regardless of what the Catholic Church officially teaches, that’s the belief). And depending on the particular parish, you definitely notice the belief in the Real Presence.

As far as which you should go with, I personally made the decision to leave the ACA and become Catholic. It really depends on what you believe. I will say that the Catholic Church is very much universal, and it really does connect all people throughout the world, where the ACA (and the Traditional Anglican Communion in general) really doesn’t do. I felt a connection to it only because I grew up in that background (and almost two years later I’ll admit I still feel more comfortable with other Anglicans than I do with other Catholics). The Catholic Church is there for all people though, and once I realized that I knew I had to be here.
 
Is it possible that the Anglican church you refer to is the church IN America, instead of the church OF America?

I only mention that because it seems that the -Ain is very traditional by it’s self description and the A-C-of-A seems to be something of a mystery.

In any case, I would wonder seriously what part this church would play in the reconstituted Anglican Province of the future, for two reasons.

  1. *]Any agreement this church might make could require compromises to it’s basic principles. For instance, if it has always opposed women’s ordination and some other continuing Anglican body, or TEC diocese joining the new Province, has women priests.
    *]A strong stance on this kind of issue could keep it out of the Anglican communion indefinitely.
    I suppose it would be worthwhile to pray on this and discern just what the Holy Sprit is leading you to. Listen to the still, small voice.

    One other thing to consider, if one is considering swimming the Tiber is the formal doctrine of and required belief in the Papal dogmas, promulgated in 1870AD.

    Because one does not make such a commitment without eyes wide open, I think the actual text from the decrees of Vatican Council I bear repeating here.

    On Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope:
    …we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate.

    Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.

    This is the teaching of the catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation.

    {continued below}
 
{continued from above}

(On Universal Jurisdiction)
Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment.

The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff.

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

On Papal Infallibility:
This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.

But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.

Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our Saviour, for the exaltation of the catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the sacred council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.

Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

The above quotations are excerpts of what I consider to be the relevant points to be understood by all the faithful in the communion under the bishop of Rome. The entire decree in context may be read at the link given, and at other sites across the internet.

I hope that this helps you in some way. It is a big step.
 
It depends on what you believe the Catholic Church to be. If the claims of the Catholic Church to be the One True Church are correct, then you should be Catholic. If the truth lays elsewhere, then a different conclusion would be warranted.
 
Isn’t it pretty clear from the scriptures that Jesus intended for his Church to be visibly united, not just in name but in association? Isn’t it plain to see that he founded ONE church?

So sad that we’ve fractured it so many times. I guess I look back at history and wonder how so many can think that Christ established the Anglican Church. Is it REALLY likely that Christ’s church went off the rails at sometime more than 500 years ago and that God brought it back to where it SHOULD be via the actions of Henry VIII, Cromwell and their successors?

If Mary is your hangup, consider this explanation that helped me a lot: Mary is the mother of Jesus, i.e. God incarnate. He was BOTH fully human and fully God. She raised him, taught him. He watched her, listened to her. From the earliest days of christianity, we have believed that God intervened in her life and gave her the grace to be what we are destined to become in heaven. She didn’t pull it off by willpower or strength, it was GRACE. She is (so far) God’s masterwork of mere humanity and the mommy of our Lord. No master artist becomes jealous or angered when people temporarily ignore him to marvel at his work. So it is with God. Awe and reverence for the Blessed Mother as a behavior that inherently gives glory to God himself. That is the proper model of Marian devotion.

I won’t argue against our EO brethren. They’ve suffered legitimate grievences from popes in the past. They conclude from that experience that the papacy is false and dangerous as taught by the catholic church. But such a negative reasoning fails to account for the effect of human sinfulness. I wonder how the world would have turned out WITHOUT a papacy at all? Did the existence of the papacy magnify or reduce the level of corruption and political machinations in history?
Strange that under it, Western civilization became the greatest in the history of earth… Food for thought, anyways.
 
A good friend of mine is the daughter of an Anglican Archbishop. From what I can tell she is an excellent christian and human being. Just like you, she reported difficulty in understanding my relationship with the Blessed Mother. She was very open minded.

Considering your background I can see you having more in common with the Anglican Church. Faith is a journey of discoverey with many stones to be crossed along the path. So long as your travelling and moving in the right direction and loving God that is all that is important.

If you have questions about the Blessed Mother I highly recommned the tape by Scott Hahn about the Blessed Mother and his conversion. You can ask for a free copy from Catholicity.

Best wishes on your journey,

BK
 
I was at a similar crossroads a few years ago. Something you said really struck me, though:
My gut feeling is that they are both pretty much the same and I should go with the church that seems to fit best with me. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Well, the first is that they’re really not at all the same, except for some externals. Secondly, the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox as well) approach things differently than any other Christian body I know of. For most protestants, you find the denomination that fits you best, that suits what you believe. For a Catholic (or Orthodox), you must work to believe WITH the Church (at least on the essentials, which are clearly defined).

Right now, it sounds like you’re still approaching this decision with a protestant mindset: to find the Church that suits you best. I’d be surprised if you decided on Catholicism at this point, but I’d strongly encourage you to continue reading, investigating and praying about it. 👍

As for the issued with Marian devotions, I had similar reservations while still Episcopalian. Those fall into place easily once you can accept the Church’s teaching on authority. Also note that other posters have pointed out that MANY Anglicans have a strong devotion to Our Blessed Mother (Our Lady of Walsingham, anyone??) and other Saints (I pray to St Thomas Becket regularly and you get no more ‘Anglican’ than HIM!). 😃
 
The key to the highest honour (but not worship) given to Mary by the Church is indeed her Son, as has been alluded to. Mary was declared theotokos – Mother of God – not to glorify her, but to underline the fact that her son was indeed fully human, as well as fully divine.

The last thing we hear from her in Holy Scripture is the direction to the wine steward, “Do whatever he (her son) tells you.” Her honour comes from her exemplification of that direction in her life, beginning with her “fiat” to the call from the archangel. No Leda and the swan story here. We are faced with a human (young) woman who freely said yes to God, on an incredibly profound and no doubt troubling issue, with incredible results.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
“Also note that other posters have pointed out that MANY Anglicans have a strong devotion to Our Blessed Mother (Our Lady of Walsingham, anyone??) …”

The Mary shirine in our parish is of OL of Walsingham.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
If you are worried about the stance on Mary, read into official Catholic doctrine regarding her, then you can make a decision.
 
simonz said:
…I like the idea of the Anglican Church because the Catholic emphasis on Mary is very troubling to me…
Click to expand...
** Theotokos**
http://www.rdrop.com/users/stmary/tss058.jpg
There was something special about Mary in life, the Fathers of the church agree. She is praised for her virtue…and her heroism which is recounted in scripture as well as Tradition.

The Councils of the church reiterated that Mary should be magnified by us. This has a connection to high Christology. The motivation for that is to protect the origins of the human Christ so as not to discredit the Divinity of Christ. To see why that may be important (if you have not noticed), the modern western tradition of Protestantism (in general) has purposefully diminished her; Jesus has become less exalted as well and there is a type of low Christology prevalent in modern western culture. That makes Jesus seem more like a “wise man”, “sage” or “prophet” than God, and something like a form of Arianism has exploded on the scene through the Unitarian movement and the Jehovah Witnesses.

I realize that there is some Marian exceptionalism in the Roman Catholic church, but this is only one element of that church’s following (albeit a very prominent and vocal one), most RC are actually very soberly moderate in their devotions. It is a minority who attract the attention as the most animated Marian devotees. In fact, if Mary’s purpose is to bring God and creation closer together, to be a means for some, any Roman Catholic or Anglican who is focused more exclusively on the Holy Trinity is already doing well.

Some other points then:
  • Saint Mary’s proper place is at the side of her son, not in front of Him. No one will argue against this Truth. She points to Him and He speaks to us for Himself, through Tradition that includes Holy Scripture.
  • You need not ever ask Mary to pray for you, although most of us would have to wonder why you would choose not to avail yourself of this. That doesn’t mean multiple repetitions of that are necessary, carrying that thought with you and asking her occasionally would probably suffice.
  • You need not believe in any post-Apostolic revelation, this means you are not required to accept any Marian messages or believe in any appearances. That includes the most popular ones such as Lourdes and Fatima, if you don’t accept them it’s OK.
  • You need never say even one rosary in your life, although it is a tradition in the west to teach new Christians how. I have met a few converts who actually thought Roman Catholics MUST say the rosary, nothing could be further from the Truth.
    In sum, Saint Mary, Theotokos, is important to us because Jesus Christ is God incarnate, and many early critics of the doctrine of the Incarnated Lord were loathe to accept the one such as He could be born in such a humble state, by a peasant girl. By attacking Mary they were attacking the Incarnation of Christ, so the church reacted by exalting her.
By praising Mary His mother, as we often do, we are honoring Our Lord.

{continued below}
 
{continued from above}


An Akathist Hymn to the Ever Virgin Mother of God (partial)

To Our Blessed Lady, The Blessed Virgin, Mary Mother of Our Lord, Our True God, and Savior, Jesus Christ!

Blessed is Our God, Always, Now and Forevermore. Amen

Holy God, Holy and Mighty, Holy and Immortal one, have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy and Mighty, Holy and Immortal one, have mercy on us.
Holy God, Holy and Mighty, Holy and Immortal one, have mercy on us.

As soon as the angel had received his command, he hastened to Joseph’s house and said to the ever-virgin: “Behold, heaven was brought down to earth when the Word Himself was fully contained in you! Now that I see Him in your womb, taking a servant’s form, I cry out to you in wonder: Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!”

Hail, O you, through whom Joy will shine forth!
Hail, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Hail, O Restoration of the Fallen Adam!
Hail, O Redemption of the Tears of Eve!
Hail, O Peak above the reach of human thought!
Hail, O Depth even beyond the sight of angels!
Hail, O you who have become a Kingly Throne!
Hail, O you who carry Him Who Carries All!
Hail, O Star who manifest the Sun!
Hail, O Womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Hail, O you through whom creation is renewed!
Hail, O you through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!

Pregnant with God, the Virgin hastened to Elizabeth, her unborn child rejoiced, immediately knowing her embrace. Bouncing and singing, he cried out to the Mother of God:
Hail, O Tendril whose Bud shall not wilt!
Hail, O Soil whose Fruit shall not perish!
Hail, O Tender of mankind’s loving Tender!
Hail, O Gardener of the Gardener of Life!
Hail, O Earth who yielded abundant mercies!
Hail, O Table full-laden with appeasement!
Hail, for you have greened anew the pastures of delight!
Hail, for you have prepared a haven for the souls!
Hail, acceptable Incense of Prayer!
Hail, Expiation of the whole universe!
Hail, O you Favor of God to mortal men!
Hail, O you Trust of mortals before God!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!

Much, much more follows…
 
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