Crucified through the hands or wrists?

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“Apparently, the use of cheir in a broad sense in Acts 12:7 seems to reflect Hebrew and Aramaic usage, which seems to lack a specific term for the wrist…”

This sounds like what I also heard from a priest, that the word for hand includes the wrist. Sort of like the way your “leg” includes the knee.

'Have heard speculation that the nail could have perhaps affected both parts, but whatever. Either way, the crucifixion is an amazing mystery for meditation.
 
Why are you confused? Consider the possibility that some need to discredit the Church and the Bible. Anything that helps fulfill that goal is brought up.

Peace,
Ed
I’m confused why this is such an important detail. The passion is the crux of the matter here. Jesus was executed in a barbaric manner and he was innocent, but he accpeted execution for the sins of the guilty. That’s the essence of it all.

As St. Romauld told his brothers, “Leave the worries and questions outside the door.”

He was right. We ask too many questions and get caught up in too many things that distract from the essential.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m confused why this is such an important detail. The passion is the crux of the matter here. Jesus was executed in a barbaric manner and he was innocent, but he accpeted execution for the sins of the guilty. That’s the essence of it all.

As St. Romauld told his brothers, “Leave the worries and questions outside the door.”

He was right. We ask too many questions and get caught up in too many things that distract from the essential.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Others on this forum wish to change what the Church has taught by using what they call more resonable or logical explanations. Look at a Catholic Church Cross, usually over or near the altar, Christ has nails in his hands.

Check your Bible. Paul is mentioned spending time with others going over their questions. And what are we told the people did? They searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things were true. See Acts 17- 1 through 4.

Peace,
Ed
 
Others on this forum wish to change what the Church has taught by using what they call more resonable or logical explanations. Look at a Catholic Church Cross, usually over or near the altar, Christ has nails in his hands.

Check your Bible. Paul is mentioned spending time with others going over their questions. And what are we told the people did? They searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things were true. See Acts 17- 1 through 4.

Peace,
Ed
What makes you think that an artist’s rendition has anything to do with reality?

And ;you have ignored other posts herein which have pointed out that the word for “hand” in Aramaic does not mean exactly the same thing as the word “hand” in English.

Or do you believe the world was created in 6 days - that is, are you a literalist?

The Church has not taught, as a matter of faith, how Christ was nailed to the cross. Only that he was so nailed. Nailing through the wrist, which is at the bottom of the hand, and given the understanding at the time of what part of the body the Aramaic word for “hand” encompassed is perfectly aligned with Holy Scripture and Church teaching.
 
Others on this forum wish to change what the Church has taught by using what they call more resonable or logical explanations. Look at a Catholic Church Cross, usually over or near the altar, Christ has nails in his hands.
Well, in many Western renditions even today Jesus is pierced with only three nails, but that’s an artistic convention that appeared only during the Middle Ages, and mostly a purely Western phenomenon. The earliest images of crucifixions that still exist nowadays, as well as most Eastern icons even unto the present day, all agree in that they show Christ’s feet as separate and not one above the other. Not to mention that it was once an artistic fad in the East and West to show Christ clothed with a tunic, either with or without sleeves. For the record, artists varied even on the shape of Jesus’ cross: some show it as a Latin cross (t), others a Tau cross (T), still others depict it as Y-shaped. There are even artworks which show it symbolically as a tree!

The Church has NEVER said or ‘taught’ anything about the exact placement (the only explicit thing said about it is that the cheir, the arm-hand area, were pierced) and number of nails, Jesus’ posture on the cross, whether Christ actually wore His crown of thorns on the Cross or not, the exact shape and height of His cross, whether the titulus was actually written as INRI or not, whether the titulus was made of parchment or wood or something else, whether He had a loincloth on or not, whether He was tied as well or just nailed, or just how much blood, bruises and wounds He had in His body as being infallible, unchangeable dogmas that artists must strictly adhere to. The Church confesses that Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate: how exactly He was crucified we do not know, because there were no camcorders, no artists who tried to paint how exactly it occured or any writers who tried to write in great detail how this soldier drove this nail, etc. The Gospels - our only detailed records to the event - restrain themselves from giving too much detail.
 
Art is always helpful in telling us what people believe. Of course, we have to pay attention not to one work of art in isolation, but to a series. Having said this, if you look at different images of the crucifixion, there are three nails and there are more nails. Scripture does not tell us how many. My guess is that just as I quoted St. Romauld who said that all of this was unimportant, the Gospel writers also thought that the question was not important. The fact was that he was crucified for our sins and that we are united to him on the cross and called to conform our lives to the Crucified Christ.

The naysayers can say what they want about the historical details We can do what most monks, nuns and friars do. We just smile and go 🤷

If someone wants to do a seious academic research, then we’ll point him or her in the right direction.

For example, the Franciscan family has venerated the Venician icon of the crucifixioin, also known as the San Damiano cross, for 800 years. Notice that the feet are side by side. We don’t care. It’s not important to us. What is important to us are the words of St. Francis. “The rule is to live the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ in obedience.” We look to the cross to see perfect and loving obedience.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m confused why this is such an important detail. The passion is the crux of the matter here. Jesus was executed in a barbaric manner and he was innocent, but he accpeted execution for the sins of the guilty. That’s the essence of it all.

As St. Romauld told his brothers, “Leave the worries and questions outside the door.”

He was right. We ask too many questions and get caught up in too many things that distract from the essential.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
agreed, where belief is riding on proof. I think there’s a place for curiosity and looking into things more deeply. But we can be Peter who, in spite of his better judgement, obeyed first; “Master, we worked hard all last night and didn’t catch a thing. But if you say so, I’ll let the nets down again.” It’s also possible to fall into Thomas’ mode w/ conditional belief; “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” Peter was blessed beyond his wildest dreams, while Thomas ended up w/ egg on his face - so to speak. What’s needed is faith.
 
agreed, where belief is riding on proof. I think there’s a place for curiosity and looking into things more deeply. But we can be Peter who, in spite of his better judgment, obeyed first; “Master, we worked hard all last night and didn’t catch a thing. But if you say so, I’ll let the nets down again.” It’s also possible to fall into Thomas’ mode w/ conditional belief; “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” Peter was blessed beyond his wildest dreams, while Thomas ended up w/ egg on his face - so to speak. What’s needed is faith.
It’s funny, because this is kind of remotely related to my own religious vocation. One of the attractions that I found in the Franciscan family is its simplicity. Regardless of the different branches, OFM, OFM, Cap, SFO, OSF, PCPA, etc etc. We are all very well grounded in the mindset of our Holy Father Francis.

In our tradition there is a love of the cross and a desire to become conformed to Christ Crucified in all things by living in his love. That’s the essence of the Franciscan vocation. What makes us different from one branch to another is the ministry and the culture, the spirituality and rule is the same. We embrace the Gospel and we obey the Gospel’s command. Of course that leads to the cross.

What is beautiful in our tradition is that our great teachers, beginning with Francis of Assisi who was a mystic and spiritual master, right down the line: Bonaventure, Lawrence of Brindisi, Fidelis, Francisco de Osuna, and almost 100 saints and mystics, plus several doctors, the beauty is that all of our great thinkers and teachers focused on how to live the life that Francis taught us so that we might become like Christ. Even when they write for the laity, the message is the same. They take Francis’ thoughts and spirituality and they expand it, explain it and share it in a way that leads men and women down the same path that Francis walked, which led him to Christ. None of them were interested in proving anything to anyone or defending anything. Like Francis before them, the Church is the Church, the Gospel is what it is and the life in the Spirit has to be tried to be understood.

There is a Franciscan apologia, but it’s very different from this. It has nothing to do with answering questions for the sake of satisfying curiosity. Our apologia is about answering questions for the sake of clarity.

This takes me back to the beginning of this post. There is a time when curiosity can be wonderful. It leads to new discoveries and to a better understanding of something. There is a time when curiosity is not very productive, because the person who is curious already knows the answer that he or she is looking for. Whatever you say will not satisfy him or her. That’s when you do like St. Clare. She would simply tell them to think about it and leave.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It has been very helpful. To answer a most pressing question, the reason why this was important is that the Dir of Faith Formation is teaching as “Biblical Truth” that Christ was crucified through His wrists and using some “research” to support her opinion that says a human hand pieced in the palm would cause the skin to rip off . . .

But as Br. JR so eloquently pointed out, the HOW is not nearly as important as the essential fact that Christ was crucified in a horrific way to atone for us. Love the St. Romauld quote to “Leave the worries and questions outside the door.” Sadly, Ed might be correct in guessing this as a case of someone from within the Church (in an authority/teaching position) attempting to discredit the Bible for her agenda of change and modernization. She started out by saying, “You all think Jesus was crucified through the palms of His hands, but you’re wrong. It was without a doubt through His wrists so all of the artwork and crucifixes are wrong. What else might we have misinterpreted and done incorrectly?” Statements like these always leave me wanting to know the official Church teaching so that I can do a better job of defending Mother Church after correcting my own ignorance.

So it’s not that it really matters – just that this person is teaching as “Truth” something which is not even known. This is the same person who told a group of about 60 people in Bible Study that Adam and Eve were not real and that “modern science” has “proven” that humans descended from at least 5 sets of original parents – a topic for a whole different thread.

Anyway, I thought I could look at Saints who have borne the pain of the stigmata or the Shroud of Turin. Even there, there seems to be differences. St. Francis’ wounds were on his wrists and the wounds on the feet were on the front part of the foot closest to the ankle. But Padre Pio’s wounds were in the center of his hands. Zdon says the Shroud suggests the nails passed thru the wrists. Yet Buffalo says “If the Shroud of Turin is rendered in 3d it shows through the hands.”

Angelic06 noted Dr. Pierre Barbet and his book Doctor at Calvary, and Patrick457 suggests the work of Dr. Frederick Zugibe’s The Crucifixion of Jesus: A Forensic Inquiry. I also found an article by Ronald L. Conte Jr. (catholicplanet.com/MHT/wounds-Christ.htm). Conte speculates that Jesus was not crucified through either the palms of His hands nor the wrist, but rather thru the heal of the hand – the anatomical wrist (not the same location as where one might wear a wristwatch on the forearm). Conte argues this anatomical wrist is what is depicted in the Shroud. Then, he ends his article by stating, “We cannot be absolutely certain of the specific location of the nail marks in Christ’s hand, because infallible Sacred Scripture is not specific, other than to say that the nail marks were in His hands.”

I then read Zugibe’s EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES IN CRUCIFIXION (e-forensicmedicine.net/Paris.htm) where he states the problems with Barbet’s work. Mainly, Barbet failed to follow the tenets of scientific method. Zugibe writes, “For his one experiment, Barbet drove a nail through the middle of the palm using only one freshly amputated arm and suspended an 88 pound weight from the elbow and found that it tore through after about ten minutes and a couple of shakes. He then concluded entirely from only one case and improper use of the tension formula, that the palms of the hand could not support the weight of a crucarius.” Zugibe calls Barbet’s Asphyxiation Hypothesis and the idea that the palms could not support the weight of the crucarius “untenable.” Zugibe notes that articles and tv documentaries “repeatedly proclaimed Barbet’s hypothesis as fact.” In Zugibe’s own experimentation, he concludes that “the palms will support body weights at least up to about 225 pounds.” But he goes on to caution that “anyone versed in ancient history would know that crucifixions were performed in many different ways.” He then quotes other scholars who concur that victims “were nailed by both hands and feet, with and without rope supports, through the wrists between the radius and ulna bones of the forearm, by ropes alone and in unintended regions of the hand if there is intensive struggling.”

So after that anatomical review, I too looked at Scriptural quotes.
Ex 12 46
Nm 9:12
Psalms 22:17-18
John 20: 20
John 20:25-27
Luke 24:39- 40

And I am left with the solid advice of Br. JR, otjm, patrick457 and Cable who all commented days ago that it is a matter of faith and not a question that can - or needs to be – answered. The only FACT I can find is that Jesus was indeed nailed to a cross for us. Have mercy on us, oh Lord!

God’s blessing on all of you!
 
Br. JR, have you gotten permission to write a book yet? And, are you accepting outsiders for spiritual direction? Your posts always leave me with things to ponder . . . . .
 
I found out some interesting info:

Feel the palm of your hand. Yes, if a nail passed STRAIGHT through it could slip between the finger bones and tear out.

HOWEVER, put your thumb of one hand on the palm of the other, and the index finger of said hand on the hollow of the wrist on the opposite side. SO you are pinching your hand from palm to wrist. A nail that pierces the PALM can travel at an angle and come out just above the end of the hand, right between the wrist and the base of the hand bones. SO thr shroud of turin proves nothing, it simply shows the exit wounds. If you take this into consideration, and apply weight to a palm pierced in such a way, it also causes finger distension, which you see in many crucifixes, where Jesus’ hands are both semi-clawed, and distended. I do not think this is simply a sign of blessing he is making.
 
I found out some interesting info:

Feel the palm of your hand. Yes, if a nail passed STRAIGHT through it could slip between the finger bones and tear out.

HOWEVER, put your thumb of one hand on the palm of the other, and the index finger of said hand on the hollow of the wrist on the opposite side. SO you are pinching your hand from palm to wrist. A nail that pierces the PALM can travel at an angle and come out just above the end of the hand, right between the wrist and the base of the hand bones. SO thr shroud of turin proves nothing, it simply shows the exit wounds. If you take this into consideration, and apply weight to a palm pierced in such a way, it also causes finger distension, which you see in many crucifixes, where Jesus’ hands are both semi-clawed, and distended. I do not think this is simply a sign of blessing he is making.
TMI:sad_yes:

Nailing people to trees and boards is barbaric enough.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m going with the hands, but rope around the wrist. Doesn’t the Stigmata present itself on the hands?
 
I’m going with the hands, but rope around the wrist. Doesn’t the Stigmata present itself on the hands?
Traditionally yes, but there are a number of modern-day purported stigmatists who claim to bleed through the wrists. Leaving aside the question of which is really a stigmatic or not, I think a person receives stigmata as he/she perceives how Christ was wounded. I don’t think they are intended to be exact carbon copies of the actual historical Holy Wounds (they are intended to be a partaking with Jesus in His suffering), so trying to determine the location of the nails based on Stigmata by itself is rather shaky. 🤷
 
Why is this important?

Through the palm of the hands or through the wrist, it was a barbaric way to execute someone.

I’m confused.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I think that one is a lie and the other is the Truth. That is important to us. I saw a Crucifixion in the Church the other day in one Parish and for the first time I saw Jesus being crucified by the wrist. It has been understood by the Church from the beginning that Jesus was pierced by the hands. Jesus says hands and feet, that is enough for me. I dont care what scientific evidence they can come with, I know the scientific world doesnt believe in God and spend most of its time trying to discredit God in every possible way they can.
 
I think that one is a lie and the other is the Truth. That is important to us. I saw a Crucifixion in the Church the other day in one Parish and for the first time I saw Jesus being crucified by the wrist. It has been understood by the Church from the beginning that Jesus was pierced by the hands. Jesus says hands and feet, that is enough for me. I dont care what scientific evidence they can come with, I know the scientific world doesnt believe in God and spend most of its time trying to discredit God in every possible way they can.
You must be joking . . .? Is the wrist not part of the hand? This reminds of a group that denied Christ was crucified on a Friday since the scripture says that “after three days” He will rise from the dead. So they count three 24-hour days and thus concluded our Lord must have been crucified on Wednesday . . .

If the New Testament and the Church that established the NT canon thought that this was an important aspect of Christian Truth, then there would be a record of it somewhere.

And there could be - along with data signifying the number of Angels on a pin and such-like.

Alex
 
You must be joking . . .? Is the wrist not part of the hand? This reminds of a group that denied Christ was crucified on a Friday since the scripture says that “after three days” He will rise from the dead. So they count three 24-hour days and thus concluded our Lord must have been crucified on Wednesday . . .

If the New Testament and the Church that established the NT canon thought that this was an important aspect of Christian Truth, then there would be a record of it somewhere.

And there could be - along with data signifying the number of Angels on a pin and such-like.

Alex
If you want to look at this way. Then we can also assume that the piercing on the side could have been also on the leg, or the head, or some place else. Jesus said, hands. I will leave at that. Show me when the belief that Jesus was pierced by the wrist begin.
 
Jesus said, hands.
No, Thomas and Jesus used χείρ cheir, which could mean ‘hand’ but in some instances in the Septuagint and the Greek NT - perhaps reflecting Semitic usage - means something more broad. I repeat my quote:

And it cometh to pass when the camels have finished drinking, that the man taketh a golden ring (whose weight [is] a bekah), and two bracelets for her hands (עַל-יָדֶיהָ, ἐπὶ τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῆς) (whose weight [is] ten [bekahs] of gold), and saith, ‘Whose daughter [art] thou? declare to me, I pray thee, is the house of thy father a place for us to lodge in?’

-Genesis 24:22-23 (YLT)

Now when Herod was about to bring him out, on that very night, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and sentries before the door were guarding the prison. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood next to him, and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him, saying, “Get up quickly.” And the chains fell off his hands (ἐκ τῶν χειρῶν).

-Acts 12 (ESV)
 
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