Crucified through the hands or wrists?

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Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond to my question.

I have learned both that there is not an official teaching in the Catholic Church about this topic and that knowing really should not be in the way of people offering praise, worship and adoration to the Almighty Lord who suffered, died and rose for us.

Knowing that there is not an official Church teaching, I will be in a better position to help refute those in my parish Church who teach their opinions as though they were Dogma.

God’s blessings!
 
Dr. Barbet has an entire chapter expaining how in the ancient langusges the wrist was considered part of the hands. he experimented with volunteers, cadavers and even certain body parts. His research was quite thorough and he even presented it to his peers, although he never claimed it was the last word. I can only recommend you read his book and deside for your self.
 
If you want to look at this way. Then we can also assume that the piercing on the side could have been also on the leg, or the head, or some place else. Jesus said, hands. I will leave at that. Show me when the belief that Jesus was pierced by the wrist begin.
You are really being silly - the wrist is part of the hand. Artists depicted Christ pierced through the palm of the hand because we just didn’t know where people were nailed. This belief was based on human imagination and it has nothing to do with Tradition.

Ultimately, believe as you like.

Alex
 
Dr. Barbet has an entire chapter expaining how in the ancient langusges the wrist was considered part of the hands. he experimented with volunteers, cadavers and even certain body parts. His research was quite thorough and he even presented it to his peers, although he never claimed it was the last word. I can only recommend you read his book and deside for your self.
Hi Michael, I am certainly not an expert, but from my research into the topic, I have found that Dr. Pierre Barbet’s work was completely debunked as unscientific by the work of Dr. Frederick Zugibe. Barbet, it would seem, only tested his idea on one amputated arm with an 88lb weight hanging from it (please see my previous post). Unless you have other info, I don’t beleiev Barbet’s work - and his claims - to be valid. I’d truly appreciate it if you cite a source. Thank you!
 
“From the openings from where the hands and feet of the saviour were nailed will come forth great lights - which will light up the earth for a period of time.”
 
I think that one is a lie and the other is the Truth. That is important to us. I saw a Crucifixion in the Church the other day in one Parish and for the first time I saw Jesus being crucified by the wrist. It has been understood by the Church from the beginning that Jesus was pierced by the hands. Jesus says hands and feet, that is enough for me. I don’t care what scientific evidence they can come with, I know the scientific world doesn’t believe in God and spend most of its time trying to discredit God in every possible way they can.
Don’t forget that the term hand, used in the Greek includes the wrist. The Greeks actually used terminology that was more related to our own medical terminology, carpel, metacarpal, ulna and radius, etc when they wanted to be very specific about which part of the hand they’re talking about. Even today, if you speak in Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and French, the term hand includes the wrist. When you ask, what part of the hand, the speakers of Romance languages would then say: the wrist, the palm, the heal, the finger, the nail and so forth. As you can see, the term hand for speakers of Greek and Latin has several parts. We’re thinking hand in a very American way. Even then, I’m not so sure about that. Even in American English, a physician or nurse would break the hand down and include the wrist as part of the hand, because it’s the point where the two sets of bones meet.

That being said, the is another point. The two famous stigmatists, St. Francis and his son, St. Pio, did not have the stigmata in the same place. St. Francis’ hands were wounded just above the heal of the hand, if the palm is facing you. If you’re looking at the hand with palm facing down, flex your wrist. Find the point where there is a hollow at what appears to be the hinge, where hand and arm meet. That’s where his stigmata was recorded to have been.

Celano mentions the stigmata in the hand. However, Clare mentions wrapping his wrists to cover the sacred wounds. Given that both are speaking in Italian and Latin, they could both be speaking about the same thing, for the reasons that I pointed above. In Latin and Greek, hand is not the palm. It’s the whole thing.

Padre Pio’s wounds seemed larger and started at the center of the palm and spread out. Because of the questions that both stigmatas raise, the Church has never spoken formally on the matter. Nor has the Church ever invested time and money to study the question.

Even the shroud is a matter of private veneration. There is no confirmation or denial from the Church that this is or is not the shroud in which Jesus was buried. What is of great significance to us is that the shroud is proof positive that there were such barbaric crucifixions and that what the Evangelists describe using words, barely captures the horror of these executions as well as the shroud does. The shroud helps us to reflect on how much Jesus suffered for our sins. Whether this was his shroud ot that of another person, it does not change the fact that crucifixion was his fate. That thought alone should move us to convert from sin toward virtue.

If you look at the Cross of San Damiano, which is very popular in Franciscan houses and chapels, there are four nails, not three. The feet are side by side, not over each other and the head is above the shoulders. Jesus is not hanging from the cross. People made assumptions and ran with them.

Whatever other people want to research, they are free to do so. They cannot accuse Christians of lying, because we never said that the nails were through the palm or the wrist. We never said that there were three nails or four. That was the conception of different artists. This is neither a matter of truth or of faith. It’s a matter of historical research. The triumph of the cross is enough for the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Amen to the triumph of the cross!

We adore Thee, O Christ, and bless Thee.
Because by Thy holy cross Thou hast redeemed the world.

Jesus Christ Crucified, have mercy on us.
 
You must be joking . . .? Is the wrist not part of the hand? ***This reminds of a group that denied Christ was crucified on a Friday since the scripture says that “after three days” He will rise from the dead. So they count three 24-hour days and thus concluded our Lord must have been crucified on Wednesday . . .

If the New Testament and the Church that established the NT canon thought that this was an important aspect of Christian Truth, then there would be a record of it somewhere.

And there could be - along with data signifying the number of Angels on a pin and such-like.

Alex
I have never heard of this??
 
If you look at the Cross of San Damiano, which is very popular in Franciscan houses and chapels, there are four nails, not three. The feet are side by side, not over each other and the head is above the shoulders. Jesus is not hanging from the cross. People made assumptions and ran with them.
The San Damiano cross - which was one of those painted crosses popular in Italy (especially in Umbria) during the medieval period - is consistent with artistic depictions of the period, which I personally believe preserves the historical memory more accurately.

Artworks which show Jesus pierced with three nails and with one foot over the other only predominated in Western art around the 13th century (the convention had AFAIK already existed for a century or two), but the older convention, despite being driven into the minority, never totally disappeared: Diego Velázquez’ famous 1632 painting Christ Crucified is a good Renaissance example which show four nails. And as I’ve mentioned earlier, the iconographically-conservative East generally kept the four-nails convention alive even today, save for some notable specimens which were clearly influenced by Western art (icons made in Crete, then under Venetian rule, are particularly notorious for this).

We don’t exactly know what caused the change: either artists found the number three to have more symbolic connotations, or in an attempt to give more emphasis to Christ’s suffering, chose the depiction which further created and emphasized the slumping, swaying angle of Jesus’ dead body.

The art world was not the only one affected by the change. Popular legends circulated which attempted to explain the sudden shift, like the story of the Gypsy who stole one of the four nails intended to pin Jesus to the cross.
 
Marks on the Holy Shroud of Turin suggest that the nails passed through the wrists. This is logical: if the palms were nailed, the nails would have torn through and not held up Christ’s weight on the cross
I thought of this too. Yet there are historical accounts of other Roman prisoners and Christians of the era that were crucified on a Cross in a similar fashion.

Nail spikes driven through the wrists and feet and ropes were used to fasten their arms and legs securely to the wood.

Roman centurions and guards were professional barbarians in this ritual.
 
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1115727/posts
frugalsites.net/jesus/crucifixion.htm

From research of history and science awhile back, I discovered that the nails were in the wrists, ankles and the spear entered under the rib cage just off center in front from the side. And, that some if not many of the so-called stigmata miracles are simply faked or self inflicted. The biblical words for hands and feet can include the ankles and wrists.

If you are dealing with Jws and their torture stake, it has been misproven that the watchtower used mis-translations of texts. So, don’t take them too seriously.
 
Hi Michael, I am certainly not an expert, but from my research into the topic, I have found that Dr. Pierre Barbet’s work was completely debunked as unscientific by the work of Dr. Frederick Zugibe. Barbet, it would seem, only tested his idea on one amputated arm with an 88lb weight hanging from it (please see my previous post). Unless you have other info, I don’t beleiev Barbet’s work - and his claims - to be valid. I’d truly appreciate it if you cite a source. Thank you!
Hi Suslar, I’m familiar with what Zugibe wrote as his internet link is the first thing that pops up under an internet search. Dr. Barbet wrote his book in the 40’s and the information is not searchable on the internet. unfortunately I returned the book to the friend who lent it to me. I can say that Dr. Zugibe’s internet page reads more like a pamphlet compared to the in depth studies done by Dr. Barbet. I’ve read both and I find Dr. Barbet’s arguments to be more believable.
 
Well talk about the Providence of God! I have been pondering all of this and meditating on the crucifixion and the barbaric, unfathomable torture and death Jesus endured for us. Today, I came upon something that really made me stop and think. I hope you all agree —
This is taken, in part, from John Cowart’s blog at cowart.info/blog/2008/04/nails-were-too-short.html

"In his anatomical experiments, Dr. Barbet used short nails - hardly 3 inches long.

I’ve heard of a singing group called Nine-Inch Nails but I’ve never heard them sing and I know nothing about them; I suppose the group name is derived from some idea that it would take nails 9 inches long to hold Jesus to the cross.

I doubt it.

Even those nails would be too short.

Just how long of a nail would it take to pin down God?

Before His crucifixion Jesus said, “I lay down my life for the sheep… I lay down my life that I might take it up again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it again”.

He said this sort of thing again and again throughout the gospels saying that although He is God come in the flesh, yet He voluntarily went to the cross for our sin.

He suffered agony for us.

No matter their length, nails alone were too short to hold Him to the cross.

It was love alone that held Him there.

Love for us."

Amazing when you think about it – it was all love that held Christ in place for us. Love that bound Him so it doesn’t matter where the nails were in his hands/wrists – just that He chose death for us. What great love! What an awesome mediation for this Lenten season!

And, it means Bro. JR was right.

Peace to all of you!
 
Before His crucifixion Jesus said, “I lay down my life for the sheep… I lay down my life that I might take it up again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it again”.

He said this sort of thing again and again throughout the gospels saying that although He is God come in the flesh, yet He voluntarily went to the cross for our sin.

He suffered agony for us.

No matter their length, nails alone were too short to hold Him to the cross.

It was love alone that held Him there.

Love for us."

Amazing when you think about it – it was all love that held Christ in place for us. Love that bound Him so it doesn’t matter where the nails were in his hands/wrists – just that He chose death for us. What great love! What an awesome mediation for this Lenten season!
Excellent!
 
Little late to this but I thought I would add.

In short we don’t know but we can make a good guess based on the anatomy of the body. Jesus could have been nailed to the cross right through His palms but because of the the weight of the body, the hands of Jesus would have ripped right through the nails once He was held up as there is no bone or enough muscle to hold in the palm of the hands. The only way this could have been done is if Jesus was tied to the cross which would have kept His weight from tearing through the hands.

It is also widely held that Jesus could have been nailed at His wrists as there is bone to hold the weight of the body. Being tied to the cross would not be needed in this case.

Either way praise God for His sacrifice! Our debt has been paid by Him through His suffering.
 
Nails can pierce the palm in such a way that they exit just below the wrist…
 
Rben20, the idea that nailing thru the palm of the hand would not hold the weight of the body (by causing the flesh to tear) has been disproven.

Yet, it seems so hard for people to be open to other possibilities. Kind of reminds me of the reason so many parents give for why they won’t immunize their kids: They are afraid that the vaccines contain mercury and cause autism. That too has been disproven and yet people willfully – and forcefully – believe and defend their position. Even after the guy who faked the autism link said he lied about his experimental methods and test subjects.

The fact of this matter is that no nail could have held GOD to the cross if He didn’t chose it for our salvation. Because Jesus Christ chose death that we might live, they could have nailed Him anyplace on His precious body and He would have willingly accepted. Nailing His palms would have worked if He so ordained it.
 
0_o

How has this been disproved? I just saw this on discovery which I would say is a good and reliable source :confused: And Gregory, yes that is a correct point as well. I wasn’t trying to say my two points are the only way. Just the debated ones.
 
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