Crucifix/Communion Question

[CatholicJHwk]

Hi everyone,

I’m not sure if questions regarding sacramentals should be here or not, but here goes anyway - my nephew’s baptism is Saturday. I was thinking about getting him a (Celtic) crucifix, but having it engraved with St. Declan, pray for us. Is it ok to have this done on a crucifix? My instinct is telling me no, but wasn’t sure.

Also, I know for a fact that two of my brothers that will be there (one of which being the godfather - don’t get me started) are not in a state of grace with the Church. Should I say something to them about not receiving communion? Again, my instinct tells me it’s between them and their Maker but…

Thanks for the sage counsel!

JD

 

[1ke]

Hi everyone,

I’m not sure if questions regarding sacramentals should be here or not, but here goes anyway - my nephew’s baptism is Saturday. I was thinking about getting him a (Celtic) crucifix, but having it engraved with St. Declan, pray for us. Is it ok to have this done on a crucifix? My instinct is telling me no, but wasn’t sure.

I have no idea why you believe there is a problem with what you propose.

Also, I know for a fact that two of my brothers that will be there (one of which being the godfather - don’t get me started) are not in a state of grace with the Church. Should I say something to them about not receiving communion? Again, my instinct tells me it’s between them and their Maker but…

Correct, not your business.

 

[Bookcat]

As to the first – I do not see anything sinful in engraving the back of a crucifix.

As to the second – You do need to consider mentioning to your brother that he ought not receive Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin… (if he is not a fitting baptismal sponsor --then he is not one to choose for this role)

"“Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten: fraternal correction in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other. As the Apostle Paul says: “If one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way” (Gal 6:1). In a world pervaded by individualism, it is essential to rediscover the importance of fraternal correction, so that together we may journey towards holiness. Scripture tells us that even “the upright falls seven times” (Prov 24:16); all of us are weak and imperfect (cf. 1 Jn 1:8). It is a great service, then, to help others and allow them to help us, so that we can be open to the whole truth about ourselves, improve our lives and walk more uprightly in the Lord’s ways. There will always be a need for a gaze which loves and admonishes, which knows and understands, which discerns and forgives (cf. Lk 22:61), as God has done and continues to do with each of us. "

–Pope Benedict XVI

Full text vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

Truth with charity and prudence

 

[victorbuhagiar]

I agree with Bookcat. How can a godfather help your son in becoming a better spiritual person? He can only give him a bad example.

 

[dconklin]

Their “state of grace” is between them and God. How do you they have not repented? Sometimes you can worry way too much about someone else.

 

[Donna_P]

Hi everyone,

I’m not sure if questions regarding sacramentals should be here or not, but here goes anyway - my nephew’s baptism is Saturday. I was thinking about getting him a (Celtic) crucifix, but having it engraved with St. Declan, pray for us. Is it ok to have this done on a crucifix? My instinct is telling me no, but wasn’t sure.

Also, I know for a fact that two of my brothers that will be there (one of which being the godfather - don’t get me started) are not in a state of grace with the Church. Should I say something to them about not receiving communion? Again, my instinct tells me it’s between them and their Maker but…

Thanks for the sage counsel!

JD

I don’t know about the cross although it doesn’t sound like something that’s any kind of issue.

Regarding your brothers…I would just let them know the times available to go to confession at the church. They will know exactly what you are talking about.

 

[bmullins]

An easy way to bring it up is to call the parish and arrange for a confession appointment before the baptism and let your brother know that you are going and welcome him to come as well. That way he can get the hint that he needs to be in a state of grace, without having to be in his face about it.

The question is, How can anyone know that someone else isn’t in a state of grace? We might know that they have struggles, and indeed are failing to live the proper life… but we don’t know that they are in mortal sin. Only God knows that. We can warn them that they are in ‘danger’ of it, but there are too many factors that only God can see that determine if they are in mortal sin. The Eucharist cleanses the venial, so if he’s just stumbling a lot, but goes to mass every weekend, then he’s not a great person (none of us are) but he’s still potentially in a state of grace.

 

[sacredcow]

Scripture encourages us to gently correct our wayward brothers and sisters. These opportunities are great occasions to save souls by showing genuine concern. How go about this? The words can be your own, but how about: I care about you very much, and your being with us is a great act of love on your part. We will be in church, and part of receiving communion in church means that we are right with God. This means being in relationhsip with Jesus Christ, confessing our sins, and being forgiven by him. Can we talk and pray about these things before we go to Church?" In the end, I think it is enough for you to express a loving regard for their salvation, rather than being fearful about whether they are able to receive. Doing this, you will in fact be able to suggest politely that they should not receive unless they are right with God and Church.

NONE of us is worthy to receive communion but for the saving sacrifce of Christ on the Cross. We have done and can never do anything to merit anything apart from the Grace of God in jesus Christ. We do well to remember this when we start talking about “sinners.”

catechism # 2007 “With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.”

So as you have received the gift of Faith, take this opportunity to share it with your troubled relatives. You have been given a great opportunity here.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Could you elaborate about what you think might be wrong with getting a cross engraved?

I think the interlacing design of the Celtic Cross would have struck an Irishman of St. Declán’s time as an alien, Germanic-looking thing, but I wouldn’t be bothered by this since it became so characteristic of later Ireland, where the saint was venerated.

Having crosses engraved is a common practice.

 

[CatholicJHwk]

Thanks everyone. I was thinking about the front of the crucifix but I suppose the back would be ok.

As to the second point it should be made clear that it’s not my son, it’s my nephew. In other words I had no vote in who was chosen as a godparent. Personally, I do think it’s a stupid choice but it’s ultimately not up to me. And you all right. I suppose I cannot say with 100% certainty that both of my brothers are not in a state of grace, however I do feel 99.9% sure. Again, can’t say with 100% certainty, but I’m 99.9% positive neither my younger nor older brothers have seen the inside of a church since my Dad’s funeral two and a half years ago. The oldest (there’s 4 of us total) has most likely only been just to fulfill the qualification of being a member of the parish so they would do the baptism. How do I know this? Because my mom has her finger on the pulse of each of us (as she should) and states outloud to anyone who cares to listen that I’m the only practicing of the 4. It’s a shame, really. And now I’ll hop down off the soapbox.

Needless to say I’m glad my mom takes their daughter (and their son probably, if not soon) to Mass with her when she watches her, which is nearly every weekend. She (the daughter) actually wakes up on Sunday and says to her “Mass time?” She’ll be three in August so it’s still cute.

 

[Bookcat]

As to the Holy Communion–

One would know by ones relationship how to bring it up…and one would seek to do so privately and with charity and prudence…it would depend on the person and relationship…

As to the person being able to be the sponsor – it is NOT up just to will of the Parents …they cannot choose a person who is not in good standing with the Church…

Canon Law:

SPONSORS

Can. 872 Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.

Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.

Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2Y.HTM

–Not to tell you what you are to do…I am simply providing the info. Lots of aspects to the problem…Perhaps a Priest closer to the situation can guide one more…

 

[CatholicJHwk]

Yeah. I know that. You know that. My mom knows that. Or thought she did. I was having supper with her one night and she told me that the godfather was my older brother. Needless to say my reaction probably could have been handled differently (and in a more Christian manner), but that’s in the past. Anyway I brought up exactly what you said. She claims that she did as well. According to her, and she got her information from my oldest brother (the father) no doubt, all you have to be is Catholic. I take that to assume they, my brother and his priest that is, mean someone who has all the initation sacraments. Then again, the fact that the priest is letting this happen makes me think he just asked if he was Catholic. Probably didn’t ask to speak to HIS parish priest in St. Louis (as if he has one) or see his baptismal certificate. lkasjdfl;kjasdfklasj;fjsda (that’s my form of aggravation on the keyboard)

My point is either they said “We don’t know anyone else” or their priest just doesn’t give a flip. Obviously he’s a softie if he’s letting my older brother be the godparent. The best part about it, humorous depending on how you look at it, is my older brother, the godfather, isn’t even raising his kids Catholic. As a matter of fact my oldest brother is the only one who has had his kids baptized, and from an outside perspective it was simply to make my Dad, and possibly Mom, happy. (I have no children.)

So this is why I’ve actually considered not going. It’s a farce if you ask me. But again, it’s up to the parents and the priest, both of which to me, again on the outside, isn’t that serious about it.

I warned you not to get me started on this!!!

As to the person being able to be the sponsor – it is NOT up just to will of the Parents …they cannot choose a person who is not in good standing with the Church…

Canon Law:

SPONSORS

Can. 872 Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.

Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.

Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2Y.HTM

–Not to tell you what you are to do…I am simply providing the info. Lots of aspects to the problem…Perhaps a Priest closer to the situation can guide one more…

 

[CatholicJHwk]

Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

And another thing! If it were me, I’d be more than happy to drive up the highway 40 minutes on a Saturday afternoon and take the little guy (and his sister if she wanted to go) to Mass. Another item that I can’t say with 100% certainty, but feel safe in 99%, is that neither my younger nor older had their marriages convalidated. The oldest (father) was married in a Catholic church, but again, I honestly believe it was just to please the old man, God rest his soul. (i.e. “Look at me! I’m the only son that was married in the Church! I never get my rear out of bed on Sunday or have supper a little later on Saturday or Sunday but look at me! My kids are baptized!! I never take them to church but look at me! I’m the best!” Oye.

It sounds horrible but one of the highlights of going would be to see the clueless looks on their faces when they hear the new translation. “Hey, when did they change Mass?” Dude, like 6 months ago. Where ya been? Pretty proud of myself - I have most everything memorized except the Creed. That’s still a humdinger of an adjustment.

Venting is good for the soul.