Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

[Anna_Scott]

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

A Jewish author posed a very important question which I have not been able to answer, and it bothers me that I cannot answer the question.

Question paraphrased:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?

I am a Christian, and I want to be able to answer this question. I believe that God is infinite and that He brought all things into being. So, there cannot be anything before God or any law higher than God. God must surely make the rules. So, I think it is reasonable to ask why Christ had to die.

The O.T. does reveal a point, when God seemed to no longer desire a sacrifice or blood atonement for sins.

Micah 6: 6 “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Jeremiah 7: 22 **For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. **23But this command I gave them: **‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’
**
Even in the N.T. we find **Jesus quoting **Hosea 6:6:

Matthew 9: 12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6** For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.**

One of the most intriguing passages in the NT reveals Jesus agreeing that loving God and your neighbor is more important than “all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

This seems to be a very strange thing for Jesus to say, since he came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.

Also, throughout the NT, Jesus forgave sins. Not once did he tell those he forgave to go and make a sacrifice to complete the forgiveness.

In addition, John proclaimed Baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

**Luke 3: **2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1: 4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

So, I hope someone can help me answer this question:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

 

[jakasaki]

The answer my dear is in the Bible… Start of the beginning Genesis and get to the end.

Read everything, take notes & you will understand.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The answer my dear is in the Bible… Start of the beginning Genesis and get to the end.

Read everything, take notes & you will understand.

I have read the Bible cover to cover. I quoted Scriptures that do leave questions I cannot answer.

Remember, I am a Christian. I believe that Christ died for our sins. I am asking for help, here. I have Jewish friends that I love dearly.

I have been reading Jewish authors to find out what the Jewish objections are, so that I can answer my friends, if they ask questions about Christianity.

If a Jewish friend asked you the question, how would you answer it?

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

 

[heathernoel]

I’m almost afraid to post MY answer because I’m not an apologetic…just a mere Christian who has a simple answer when my kids ask the same questions.

For me, it goes back to offerings: the purpose was to show Him how sorry we were for our sins. His people seemed to understand sacrifices. Indeed, the Bible, from cover to cover, tells us instances that offerings were offered up as a sign of repentance. By his telling people that He would come, and indeed be the paschal Lamb, he, too, was offering a sacrifice for our salvation.

I googled your question, and came up with this:

Though God is all merciful, all powerful and all forgiving, God is also holy, righteous and just.

  Isaiah 5:16

But the LORD Almighty is exalted by his justice. The holiness of God is displayed by his righteousness. (NLT)

Sin and Holiness are Incompatible
Sin entered the world through one man’s disobedience - Adam, and now all of us are born into this “sin nature.”

  Romans 5:12
  When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT) 

  Romans 3:23
  For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. (NLT)

Sin Separates Us from God

  Isaiah 35:8
  And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it. (NIV)

  Isaiah 59:2
  But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. (NIV)

Sin’s Punishment is Eternal Death
God’s holiness and justice demand that sin and rebellion be punished. The only penalty or payment for sin is eternal death.

  Romans 6:23
  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB)

  Romans 5:21
  So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (NLT)

Atoning Sacrifice
Our death is not sufficient to atone for sin because atonement requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice, offered in just the right way. Jesus, the one perfect God-man, came to offer the pure, complete and everlasting sacrifice to remove, atone, and make eternal payment for our sin.

  1 Peter 1:18-19
  For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. (NLT) 

  Hebrews 2:14-17
  Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. (NIV)

---

Only Through Jesus Christ***
Only through Jesus Christ can our sins be forgiven, thus restoring our relationship with God and removing the separation caused by sin.

  2 Corinthians 5:21
  God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (NIV)

  1 Corinthians 1:30
  It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. (NIV)

The Messiah - Savior
The suffering and the glory of the coming Messiah was foretold in Isaiah chapters 52 and 53. God’s people in the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah that would save them from their sin. Though he did not come in the form they expected, still their faith looking forward to his salvation saved them. Our faith, looking backward to his act of salvation, saves us. When we accept Jesus’ payment for our sin, his perfect sacrifice washes away our sin and restores our right standing with God. God’s mercy and grace provided a way for our salvation.

  Romans 5:10
  For since we were restored to friendship with God by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be delivered from eternal punishment by his life. (NLT)

In Summary, when we are “in Christ Jesus” we are covered by his blood through his sacrificial death, our sins are paid for, and we no longer have to die an eternal death. We receive eternal life though Jesus Christ. And this is why Jesus had to die.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Because sin must be punished with death. This is one of the rules of creation. And instead of changing the rules - which isn’t just - God offers himself to bear the punishment of our sin. Now, his descendants - whom he loves so much - will live a long life (Isaiah 53:10).

 

[heathernoel]

Yay!! My thinking was on track!! Thanks, Charlie

This is me now!!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And of course, the short answer is that your friend ‘cherry picked’ Scripture posts which ONLY dealt with texts that could be useful to support his theory, and ignored Isaiah 52, ignored Christ’s words about His own death, ignored Psalm 22, etc. etc.

You can ‘make’ Scripture support virtually anything by ‘cherry picking’ and then interpreting only what you want that Scripture to be ‘saying’. . .but only by testing Scripture as a whole and relating it to ALL of Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and not just on phrases taken out of context, will your friend be able to understand correctly. So long as he is bent on ‘proving a point’ I fear he will only take what he thinks ‘bolsters’ his view and will ignore the rest. . .

 

[geometer]

[So, I hope someone can help me answer this question:

[COLOR=“Blue”]If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

These verses make it clear that he was the saviour of the whole nation of Israel.

Jhn 11:48 If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation."

Jhn 11:49 But one of them, Ca’iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all;

Jhn 11:50 you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish."

Jhn 11:51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation,

Jhn 11:52 and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I appreciate all the responses coming in. I do realize that Scripture can be used to support almost anything, when taken out of context. Yet, there are some passages that do dismiss sacrifice. Are we to ignore these altogether or can someone explain them?

I am looking to Catholics for your knowledge of the ECF on the issue. I have studied for only the last 4 years or so. Many Catholics have studied the ECF their whole lives.

So, was God bound by something that made it impossible for Him to forgive sins without a blood atonement? I can’t imagine this being the case, since God is our creator. I cannot imagine anything higher that God. God is infinite. So, did God simply choose death as the method of atonement?

Anna

Edited: P.S. And why would God choose Sacrifice of animals and eventually of Christ, the man, when this is what pagans practiced?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

Christ had to die to pay the price for our sin against God so we can be brought near to God.

Christ and Him crucified = Adoption through propitiation

We can only go by written revelation to answer your question. We cannot speculate apart from the written Word of God.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m almost afraid to post MY answer because I’m not an apologetic…just a mere Christian who has a simple answer when my kids ask the same questions.

For me, it goes back to offerings: the purpose was to show Him how sorry we were for our sins. His people seemed to understand sacrifices. Indeed, the Bible, from cover to cover, tells us instances that offerings were offered up as a sign of repentance. By his telling people that He would come, and indeed be the paschal Lamb, he, too, was offering a sacrifice for our salvation.

I googled your question, and came up with this:

Though God is all merciful, all powerful and all forgiving, God is also holy, righteous and just.

  Isaiah 5:16

But the LORD Almighty is exalted by his justice. The holiness of God is displayed by his righteousness. (NLT)

Sin and Holiness are Incompatible
Sin entered the world through one man’s disobedience - Adam, and now all of us are born into this “sin nature.”

  Romans 5:12
  When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT) 

  Romans 3:23
  For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. (NLT)

Sin Separates Us from God

  Isaiah 35:8
  And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it. (NIV)

  Isaiah 59:2
  But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. (NIV)

Sin’s Punishment is Eternal Death
God’s holiness and justice demand that sin and rebellion be punished. The only penalty or payment for sin is eternal death.

  Romans 6:23
  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB)

  Romans 5:21
  So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (NLT)

Atoning Sacrifice
Our death is not sufficient to atone for sin because atonement requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice, offered in just the right way. Jesus, the one perfect God-man, came to offer the pure, complete and everlasting sacrifice to remove, atone, and make eternal payment for our sin.

  1 Peter 1:18-19
  For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. (NLT) 

  Hebrews 2:14-17
  Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. (NIV)

---

Only Through Jesus Christ***
Only through Jesus Christ can our sins be forgiven, thus restoring our relationship with God and removing the separation caused by sin.

  2 Corinthians 5:21
  God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (NIV)

  1 Corinthians 1:30
  It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. (NIV)

The Messiah - Savior
The suffering and the glory of the coming Messiah was foretold in Isaiah chapters 52 and 53. God’s people in the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah that would save them from their sin. Though he did not come in the form they expected, still their faith looking forward to his salvation saved them. Our faith, looking backward to his act of salvation, saves us. When we accept Jesus’ payment for our sin, his perfect sacrifice washes away our sin and restores our right standing with God. God’s mercy and grace provided a way for our salvation.

  Romans 5:10
  For since we were restored to friendship with God by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be delivered from eternal punishment by his life. (NLT)

In Summary, when we are “in Christ Jesus” we are covered by his blood through his sacrificial death, our sins are paid for, and we no longer have to die an eternal death. We receive eternal life though Jesus Christ. And this is why Jesus had to die.

I appreciate all the quotes. Do you think God chose death as the method of atonement or is God bound by something?

I did find it interesting that you believe eternal death is the punishment of sins. I believe this as well, but have not met anyone else on the forums who holds this belief.

Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

God is bound by His attributes. Since God is perfectly Holy and just, we know God cannot do anything unjust and unholy. We know God cannot be tempted by evil, and we know God cannot sin. Here is a verse to reflect on the vindication of God related to your question. The cross is the perfect manifestation of His justice and His love, resulting in the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - rom 3

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. - 2 Cor

 

[heathernoel]

I think eternal death is the punishment for not repenting for sins…does that make sense? I think even Judas had a chance to repent. Whether or not he did, I’ll have to wait for the answer

Perhaps he chose death because we as people understand it as a finality. I don’t think God is bound by anything…he’s God But in a way He is bound by His word…

 

[Anna_Scott]

I think eternal death is the punishment for not repenting for sins…does that make sense? I think even Judas had a chance to repent. Whether or not he did, I’ll have to wait for the answer

Perhaps he chose death because we as people understand it as a finality. I don’t think God is bound by anything…he’s God But in a way He is bound by His word…

Does make sense.

Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think eternal death is the punishment for not repenting for sins…does that make sense? I think even Judas had a chance to repent. Whether or not he did, I’ll have to wait for the answer

Perhaps he chose death because we as people understand it as a finality. I don’t think God is bound by anything…he’s God But in a way He is bound by His word…

I think you are seeing it right. A Christian’s life is holding on to the precious promises of God. To believe in His promises is the kind of faith that pleases God. God cannot do all things. For example, we know through Scripture that it is impossible for God to lie; therefore, we can have faith that His promises will come to pass.

…it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. - Hebrews 6:18

 

[Anna_Scott]

Again, lots of good information, but no one has actually answered the question of why Christ had to die.

So, was God bound by something that made it impossible for Him to forgive sins without a blood atonement? I can’t imagine this being the case, since God is our creator. I cannot imagine anything higher that God. God is infinite.

So, did God simply choose death as the method of atonement? Could God forgive sins without a blood atonement?-- which is what Jesus did throughout His ministry. He freely forgave sins-no sacrifice was involved.

It’s a tough question. I fear that we cannot answer why blood atonement is the only way. It seems strange that sacrifice of animal and eventually the man Christ, would be so similar to the pagan practices.

I have not received any comments on all the Scriptures I quoted-other than to say that one can prove anything when taking Scripture out of context. I am aware of this. But, are we to ignore those Scriptures (see Post #1). Can someone explain them and put them in context?

Still many questions, and no clear answers.

Anna

 

[planten]

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

A Jewish author posed a very important question which I have not been able to answer, and it bothers me that I cannot answer the question.

Question paraphrased:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?

I am a Christian, and I want to be able to answer this question. I believe that God is infinite and that He brought all things into being. So, there cannot be anything before God or any law higher than God. God must surely make the rules. So, I think it is reasonable to ask why Christ had to die.

The O.T. does reveal a point, when God seemed to no longer desire a sacrifice or blood atonement for sins.

Micah 6: 6 “With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
…
Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6** For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.**

One of the most intriguing passages in the NT reveals Jesus agreeing that loving God and your neighbor is more important than “all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

This seems to be a very strange thing for Jesus to say, since he came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.
…
.In addition, John proclaimed Baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

**Luke 3: **2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1: 4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

So, I hope someone can help me answer this question:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

Anna, I have read only your first post and the verses of Bible OT and bible NT you have mentioned. Excellent post from you and the verses you have selected. I am surprised. I agree with your post 100%. That is the right way of a religion. God does not want human sacrifice. And we have to think if Jesus was a mere human.

After the sacrificial offering of a son by Abraham, all human sacrifice was disallowed. I do not want to meddle into the christian belief about atonement and forgiveness of sins by the death of Jesus on the cross. It appears from your post that God did not want any sacrifices. I just repost only a small part of your post below:

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6** For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice**, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Whatever others may think about your post, I am enlightened to read all those verses of the Bible OT/NT. I shall try to read them again and again, and I may even come back with more remarks. Excellent work from you. Keep hunting, investigating. May God bless you with more guidance. Love and Justice is the answer.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .I am surprised. I agree with your post 100%. That is the right way of a religion. God does not want human sacrifice. And we have to think if Jesus was a mere human.

After the sacrificial offering of a son by Abraham, all human sacrifice was disallowed. I do not want to meddle into the christian belief about atonement and forgiveness of sins by the death of Jesus on the cross. It appears from your post that God did not want any sacrifices. I just repost only a small part of your post below:

Whatever others may think about your post, I am enlightened to read all those verses of the Bible OT/NT. . .

planten:

I appreciate the Muslim point of view on these Scriptures. I am glad you appreciated my effort. However, it is not my intention to lead people away from Christ and His atonement for our sins.

I set out to find an answer to the Jewish question regarding why anyone had to die, since God is God and He makes the rules.

I realize that one can prove almost anything from the Bible by using selected verses out of context. Yet, I have not heard from anyone regarding the proper context of the Scriptures I posted. Some offered their own selected Scriptures–all good info, but none answered the question.

**The Scriptures I posted list all the things God desires rather than Sacrifice: ** mercy, justice, to love kindness, to walk humbly with God, to do righteousness and justice, to obey God’s voice, to walk in the way God commanded, to have the knowledge of God, to love God and your neighbor.

Christ actually commanded us to learn what this means:

**Matthew 9: **12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Is there no Christian, who has learned what this means and can explain I desire mercy, and not sacrifice?

Everyone who responded gave good information about Christ and God; but no one actually answered the question:** If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?**

The answer my dear is in the Bible… Start of the beginning Genesis and get to the end. Read everything, take notes & you will understand.

For me, it goes back to offerings: the purpose was to show Him how sorry we were for our sins. His people seemed to understand sacrifices. . .

Our death is not sufficient to atone for sin because atonement requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice, offered in just the right way. Jesus, the one perfect God-man, came to offer the pure, complete and everlasting sacrifice to remove, atone, and make eternal payment for our sin. . .

Because sin must be punished with death. This is one of the rules of creation. And instead of changing the rules - which isn’t just - God offers himself to bear the punishment of our sin. Now, his descendants - whom he loves so much - will live a long life (Isaiah 53:10).

And of course, the short answer is that your friend ‘cherry picked’ Scripture posts which ONLY dealt with texts that could be useful to support his theory, and ignored Isaiah 52, ignored Christ’s words about His own death, ignored Psalm 22, etc. etc.

You can ‘make’ Scripture support virtually anything by ‘cherry picking’ and then interpreting only what you want that Scripture to be ‘saying’. . .but only by testing Scripture as a whole and relating it to ALL of Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and not just on phrases taken out of context, will your friend be able to understand correctly. So long as he is bent on ‘proving a point’ I fear he will only take what he thinks ‘bolsters’ his view and will ignore the rest. . .

These verses make it clear that he was the saviour of the whole nation of Israel.

Jhn 11:48 If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation."

Christ had to die to pay the price for our sin against God so we can be brought near to God. . .

God is bound by His attributes. Since God is perfectly Holy and just, we know God cannot do anything unjust and unholy. We know God cannot be tempted by evil, and we know God cannot sin. . . The cross is the perfect manifestation of His justice and His love, resulting in the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. . .

I think eternal death is the punishment for not repenting for sins…does that make sense? I think even Judas had a chance to repent. Whether or not he did, I’ll have to wait for the answer

Perhaps he chose death because we as people understand it as a finality. I don’t think God is bound by anything…he’s God But in a way He is bound by His word…

I think you are seeing it right. A Christian’s life is holding on to the precious promises of God. To believe in His promises is the kind of faith that pleases God. God cannot do all things. For example, we know through Scripture that it is impossible for God to lie; therefore, we can have faith that His promises will come to pass.

Is there no Christian who can answer this?

Discouraged,
Anna

 

[DOShea]

Again, lots of good information, but no one has actually answered the question of why Christ had to die.

So, was God bound by something that made it impossible for Him to forgive sins without a blood atonement? I can’t imagine this being the case, since God is our creator. I cannot imagine anything higher that God. God is infinite.

God is also just. The interaction between God and man, instituted BY God, was a covenant relationship. He said “I call heaven and earth to witness” (to this covenant), and laid before man two choices; obey the terms of the covenant (choose life) or ignore it (choose death). Part and parcel of that covenant were the rules God gave, the punishments God demanded, and the method (animal sacrifice) used to atone when man, in his weakness, falls prey to sin and wishes to repent, to come back into communion with God.

There is nothing special about the blood of lambs or bulls that magically pays for a man’s sin. Those sacrifices were symbolic, that is, they demonstrated the price of sin was death, blood being the symbol of it. But that blood was itself insufficient. It was only a precursor to what would come later, the living Messiah whose own spilled blood paid the actual price, who, being without sin or blemish, paid in an unjust way the ultimate penalty demanded by God’s justice. Jesus was the unblemished lamb.

So, did God simply choose death as the method of atonement? Could God forgive sins without a blood atonement?-- which is what Jesus did throughout His ministry. He freely forgave sins-no sacrifice was involved.

Not really. Jesus frequently asked questions like “Do you believe…” and also was able to see into people’s hearts and knew with perfect understanding if they were truly sorry for their sin or not. Notice how people who demonstrated faith and repentance before Him were treated as opposed to some of the Pharisees and scribes, described by Jesus as hypocrites, people who demanded of others what they would not do and were not the least bit sorry about it.

It’s a tough question. I fear that we cannot answer why blood atonement is the only way. It seems strange that sacrifice of animal and eventually the man Christ, would be so similar to the pagan practices.

You are making an assumption that is WAS the only way. It wasn’t, but it WAS the way that God chose, and you’d have to ask Him why - we don’t get to know the mind of God.
Examine any current law of any legitimate government and ask the same questions. Is this law the ONLY way? No, it isn’t, but it was the way the law makers felt was most effective at dealing with the problem addressed by the law. Why can’t God do the same thing with His laws and rules?

I have not received any comments on all the Scriptures I quoted-other than to say that one can prove anything when taking Scripture out of context. I am aware of this. But, are we to ignore those Scriptures (see Post #1). Can someone explain them and put them in context?

Still many questions, and no clear answers.

Anna

Anna, it is a losing game to let someone else choose a few bits and pieces of the entire collection of scripture, then demand someone else use only those to “explain” something. Could you explain what kind of vehicle I drive if I only show you the tires?

Scripture tells a complete story, the story of many covenants between God and man. Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. and it works its way to what the Son of God Himself called “the new and everlasting covenant.” He even foretold the events of it and established a memorial to that all-important event.

All of that, btw, is foretold in the prophecy of God speaking through Malachi, in Ch. 1 of his “book.” The Holy Spirit, speaking through Malachi, says that the Jews have profaned the sacrifice and that God will no longer accept their sacrifice as a result. Instead, He will accept the more pure sacrifice of the Gentiles, who also offer Him worship and incense.

That is one primary reason why the Catholic Church looks upon the Mass, specifically the Liturgy of the Eucharist as a sacrifice, and is the only religion extant that has that sacrificial aspect to it.

 

[Anna_Scott]

God is also just. The interaction between God and man, instituted BY God, was a covenant relationship. He said “I call heaven and earth to witness” (to this covenant), and laid before man two choices; obey the terms of the covenant (choose life) or ignore it (choose death). Part and parcel of that covenant were the rules God gave, the punishments God demanded, and the method (animal sacrifice) used to atone when man, in his weakness, falls prey to sin and wishes to repent, to come back into communion with God.

There is nothing special about the blood of lambs or bulls that magically pays for a man’s sin. Those sacrifices were symbolic, that is, they demonstrated the price of sin was death, blood being the symbol of it. But that blood was itself insufficient. It was only a precursor to what would come later, the living Messiah whose own spilled blood paid the actual price, who, being without sin or blemish, paid in an unjust way the ultimate penalty demanded by God’s justice. Jesus was the unblemished lamb.

Not really. Jesus frequently asked questions like “Do you believe…” and also was able to see into people’s hearts and knew with perfect understanding if they were truly sorry for their sin or not. Notice how people who demonstrated faith and repentance before Him were treated as opposed to some of the Pharisees and scribes, described by Jesus as hypocrites, people who demanded of others what they would not do and were not the least bit sorry about it.

You are making an assumption that is WAS the only way. It wasn’t, but it WAS the way that God chose, and you’d have to ask Him why - we don’t get to know the mind of God.
Examine any current law of any legitimate government and ask the same questions. Is this law the ONLY way? No, it isn’t, but it was the way the law makers felt was most effective at dealing with the problem addressed by the law. Why can’t God do the same thing with His laws and rules?

Anna, it is a losing game to let someone else choose a few bits and pieces of the entire collection of scripture, then demand someone else use only those to “explain” something. Could you explain what kind of vehicle I drive if I only show you the tires?

Scripture tells a complete story, the story of many covenants between God and man. Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. and it works its way to what the Son of God Himself called “the new and everlasting covenant.” He even foretold the events of it and established a memorial to that all-important event.

All of that, btw, is foretold in the prophecy of God speaking through Malachi, in Ch. 1 of his “book.” The Holy Spirit, speaking through Malachi, says that the Jews have profaned the sacrifice and that God will no longer accept their sacrifice as a result. Instead, He will accept the more pure sacrifice of the Gentiles, who also offer Him worship and incense.

That is one primary reason why the Catholic Church looks upon the Mass, specifically the Liturgy of the Eucharist as a sacrifice, and is the only religion extant that has that sacrificial aspect to it.

DOShea:

I appreciate all that you said.

I do understand that we must look at Scripture as a whole. I am aware of the passages where God would not accept sacrifice, because of the heart of the people.

Yet, that was not the case at every point when God asked for things other than Sacrifice. So, I don’t think we can dismiss these passages altogether.

God did ask for all these things rather than sacrifice: mercy, justice, to love kindness, to walk humbly with God, to do righteousness and justice, to obey God’s voice, to walk in the way God commanded, to have the knowledge of God, to love God and your neighbor.

It seems that you are saying God chose the “Sacrifice” of Christ, but could forgive us however He chooses. Please correct me, if I misunderstood you.

I know that we are not to question God’s intentions. He is the Potter, and we are the clay. Still, it is disturbing to think that God chose the torturous death of Christ as the means of reconciliation.

Your point regarding the Catholic Church and the sacrificial aspect of the Eucharist is very interesting, when considering the topic of this Thread.

So, should we answer our Jewish friends by saying that God chose human sacrifice (Christ as perfect man) as the method for the atonement of sins? That sounds rather disturbing, when I say it out loud–especially in light of pagan practices.

Anna