Crucifixion on Wednesday?

[Old_Scholar]

For my own edification, both Mk 16:1 and Mt 28:1 use the Greek word sabbaton. How do I tell one is used in the plural and the other in the singular?

Go to the textual criticism of the Greek NT and you will find all the discussion you want on this word.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Isn’t that a contradiction? It can’t be “after” AND “on” the third day. Rising exactly at 6pm and zero seconds still isn’t both on and after…

Which goes to show, you take it all too literally.

I am just showing you that the Bible says both things so you have to dig a little deeper in the well…

 

[cfrancis]

Cal, before I move on to the Quartodeciman Controversy, I just want to, again, clarify that your position is Christ was Crucified on Wednesday and raised on the 4th day, Sunday (sometime b/n Saturday 6PM and Sunday 6AM).

 

[cfrancis]

cfrancis

Since you mentioned quartodecimanism, let’s look at what the early church leaders believed.

We can’t go back any farther than the apostles themselves and look at what John taught. Polycarp was a disciple and student of John and Polycarp claimed that John placed the crucifixion of Christ on 14 Nisan. In the early church Pascha was always celebrated on the 14th day of Nisan. This was when the Passover sacrifice had been made and the early church leaders I cited all believed this date was correct. Melito is another one who believed it.

Cal, I looked at the extant writing from Irenaeus re: this issue, and could find nothing of what you mention above:

For the controversy is not merely as regards the day, but also as
handed down to posterity the custom as it had, through simplicity or private fancy, been [introduced among them]. And yet nevertheless all these lived in peace one with another, and we also keep peace together. Thus, in fact, the difference [in observing] the fast establishes the harmony of [our common] faith. And the presbyters preceding Soter in the government of the Church which thou dost now rule—I mean, Anicetus and Pius, Hyginus and Telesphorus, and Sixtus—did neither themselves observe it [after that fashion], nor permit those with them to do so. Notwithstanding this, those who did not keep [the feast in this way] were peacefully disposed towards those who came to them from other dioceses in which it was [so] observed although such observance was [felt] in more decided contrariety [as presented] to those who did not fall in with it; and none were ever cast out [of the Church] for this matter. On the contrary, those presbyters who preceded thee, and who did not observe [this custom], sent the Eucharist to those of other dioceses who did observe it. And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points, they were at once well inclined towards each other [with regard to the matter in hand], not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this head. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always [so] observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [the observance in his way], for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him. And in this state of affairs they held fellowship with each other; and Anicetus conceded to Polycarp in the Church the celebration of the Eucharist, by way of showing him respect; so that they parted in peace one from the other, maintaining peace with the whole Church, both those who did observe [this custom] and those who did not.

There does not appear to be any discussion as to the day Christ was crucified. Do you have a particular writing in mind to which you refer?

EDIT: Here is an interesting read on the issue.

 

[cfrancis]

One more excerpt on the issue, from Socrates and Sozomenus Ecclesiastical Histories

 

[benedictus2]

Most of you aren’t really reading the Scriptures. What do you think the mention of the “Preparation Day” is for? Preparation Day comes only once a year at Passover time and after the Passover meal is eaten.

This is incorrect. Preparation Day for the Festival of Unleavened bread is on Nissan 14. The Passover meal is on Nissan 15.

Christ had the meal with His disciples, was taken, tried, convicted and crucified all on the same day. He died at precisely 3 pm and was placed in the tomb just prior to the “High Day” began at sunset.

Matt. 26:19-20 and Mark 14:16 tell us that Jesus kept the Passover meal with His disciples. But then look at the day following Passover. Leviticus 23 lists all the festivals of God and tells us that on the day after the Passover a separate festival, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, begins. (verses 5-6) The first day of this Feast is a “holy convocation” on which “no customary work” is to be done. (verse 7)

If you look at Luke 22:1
"Now the feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was drawing near, ".

So it is evident here that the Passover and the Unleavened bread is the same.

Up to this point we have established that Jesus had a meal and died and buried within 24 hours, 1800 to 1799 = meal. arrest, crucifixion, death, burial

This was the first annual Sabbath and the “High Day” John writes about. … Leviticus tells us the order and timing of these days and the Gospels confirm it.

And this is where there is a difference between John and the synoptics;

John 13:1-3 Before the feast of Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to pass from this world to the Father. He loved his own in the world and he loved them to the end. The devil had already induced

So John has the Jesus’s last supper before the passover hence the meal is not a Passover meal.

But the synoptic gospels have Jesus’s last meal as a passover meal, the Seder.

Jesus was crucified and entombed on a Wednesday afternoon and not on a Friday. We can still further prove this by the
V
V
V
Mark tells us that the women bought the spices ***after the Sabbath ***and then Luke tells us that the women prepared the spices after they rested on the Sabbath. This activity had to take place on Friday, between the Sabbaths as such activity could not take place on a Sabbath.

So let us make a note of the data that we can derive from the gospels

1. Meal to burial is within 24 hours from 1800 to 1799
2. Women cannot annoint him after his death because it is almost Sabbath which means he died berfore a sabbath.
3. I think you agree with us that the Sabbath mentioned here is the ordinary sabbath (Saturday)

This is clear evidence that two Sabbaths occurred that week along with a workday in between. The first Sabbath being the ‘High Day”, the Feast of Unleavened Bread on Thursday and the second Sabbath being the weekly Sabbath on Saturday.

The work day in between is contentious at this stage. This will depend on when exactly the Seder is eaten.

To pick up from above:

If the Seder is eaten on the eve of the Passover, assuming that is 1800, then that would mean that Jesus would have died during the Passover because the Passover day starts from 1800 to 1799.

If on the other hand, the Seder is eaten as a culmination to the Passover day on 15 Nissan (say around 1730) then that means from 1800 onwards, the first day is over and a new day begins (which would be Friday) which makes this a preparation day for the weekly Sabbath and the “workday in between” you mention.

I think the latter is correct because Matthew 26:17-20 says: On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, 9 the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?” He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The teacher says, “My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”’” The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered, and prepared the Passover. When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve.

So therefore, the Seder is a culmination of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. After that begins another day which would constitute the workday in between.

So once again to reconstruct based on the synoptic Gospels.

Wed 1800 to Thur 1799 : First Day of the Passover (Hight Sabbath) culminating with the Seder

**Thurs 1800 to Fri 1799 **: Workday in between, preparation day for ordinary Sabbath. Jesus was arrested, tried, crucified, died and entombed on this day. Women prepare the spices for burial

**Fri 1800 - Sat 1799 **: Sabbath

Sat 1800 - Sun 1799 - First day of the Week. Women went to the tomb while it was still dark which could be anywhere between 1800 and 0600.

Based on the gospel accounts therefore it is difficult to fit in a Wed crucifixion.

You have locked yourself into the 3 days and 3 nights and are trying to hard to make everything conform to this. But you just can’t do that if you take into account all the gospels.

Even if you take Matthew’s account alone where this is mentioned, you cannot fit the 3 days and 3 nights theory in it.

 

[Robbinson]

This is incorrect. Preparation Day for the Festival of Unleavened bread is on Nissan 14. The Passover meal is on Nissan 15.

If you look at Luke 22:1
"Now the feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was drawing near, ".

So it is evident here that the Passover and the Unleavened bread is the same.

Up to this point we have established that Jesus had a meal and died and buried within 24 hours, 1800 to 1799 = meal. arrest, crucifixion, death, burial

And this is where there is a difference between John and the synoptics;

John 13:1-3 Before the feast of Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to pass from this world to the Father. He loved his own in the world and he loved them to the end. The devil had already induced

So John has the Jesus’s last supper before the passover hence the meal is not a Passover meal.

But the synoptic gospels have Jesus’s last meal as a passover meal, the Seder.

So let us make a note of the data that we can derive from the gospels

1. Meal to burial is within 24 hours from 1800 to 1799
2. Women cannot annoint him after his death because it is almost Sabbath which means he died berfore a sabbath.
3. I think you agree with us that the Sabbath mentioned here is the ordinary sabbath (Saturday)

The work day in between is contentious at this stage. This will depend on when exactly the Seder is eaten.

To pick up from above:

If the Seder is eaten on the eve of the Passover, assuming that is 1800, then that would mean that Jesus would have died during the Passover because the Passover day starts from 1800 to 1799.

If on the other hand, the Seder is eaten as a culmination to the Passover day on 15 Nissan (say around 1730) then that means from 1800 onwards, the first day is over and a new day begins (which would be Friday) which makes this a preparation day for the weekly Sabbath and the “workday in between” you mention.

I think the latter is correct because Matthew 26:17-20 says: On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, 9 the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?” He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The teacher says, “My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”’” The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered, and prepared the Passover. When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve.

So therefore, the Seder is a culmination of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. After that begins another day which would constitute the workday in between.

So once again to reconstruct based on the synoptic Gospels.

Wed 1800 to Thur 1799 : First Day of the Passover (Hight Sabbath) culminating with the Seder

**Thurs 1800 to Fri 1799 **: Workday in between, preparation day for ordinary Sabbath. Jesus was arrested, tried, crucified, died and entombed on this day. Women prepare the spices for burial

**Fri 1800 - Sat 1799 **: Sabbath

Sat 1800 - Sun 1799 - First day of the Week. Women went to the tomb while it was still dark which could be anywhere between 1800 and 0600.

Based on the gospel accounts therefore it is difficult to fit in a Wed crucifixion.

You have locked yourself into the 3 days and 3 nights and are trying to hard to make everything conform to this. But you just can’t do that if you take into account all the gospels.

Even if you take Matthew’s account alone where this is mentioned, you cannot fit the 3 days and 3 nights theory in it.

Not to mention, as pointed out but repeated ignored by Old Scholar, his literal reading of “3 days and 3 nights” can’t be reconciled with Jesus own words elsewhere that he would arise “on the third day”. Understanding of the Hebrew idiom of days and nights including any portion of the day reconciles all the verses and, low and behold, happens to coincide with the Friday crucifiction and Sunday resurrection.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[cfrancis]

Cal, before I move on to the Quartodeciman Controversy, I just want to, again, clarify that your position is Christ was Crucified on Wednesday and raised on the 4th day, Sunday (sometime b/n Saturday 6PM and Sunday 6AM).

Cal, again, I just want to make I’ve accurately portrayed your position in the statement above.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Cal, before I move on to the Quartodeciman Controversy, I just want to, again, clarify that your position is Christ was Crucified on Wednesday and raised on the 4th day, Sunday (sometime b/n Saturday 6PM and Sunday 6AM).

My position hasn’t changed. The resurrection was either at the end of the third day or “after” the third day as Scripture tells us. I would say it had to be at approximately the ending of the Sabbath.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Cal, I looked at the extant writing from Irenaeus re: this issue, and could find nothing of what you mention above:
There does not appear to be any discussion as to the day Christ was crucified. Do you have a particular writing in mind to which you refer?

EDIT: Here is an interesting read on the issue.

We don’t have to worry about the day Christ died, we are told by Scripture that it was 14 Nisan.

If you read what Irenæus wrote and believe it, he said that ***Polycarp taught what John had taught. *** I believe this is what Irenæus wrote:

For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always [so] observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [the observance in his way],

So Polycarp was teaching what he had heard John teach and Irenæus is saying exactly that. We can read what John had to say about the day in John 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.”

We know that the Preparation Day was always the 14th of Nisan.

Thanks for your links. They are very interesting and further explain why Polycarp used the 14th day of Nisan as taught by Scripture. It is interesting also in telling why the Roman Church changed the day as a matter of convenience, instead of using a different day each year as the calendar would require.

 

[Old_Scholar]

This is incorrect. Preparation Day for the Festival of Unleavened bread is on Nissan 14. The Passover meal is on Nissan 15.

Not true, the Passover is on the preparation day.

1. I think you agree with us that the Sabbath mentioned here is the ordinary sabbath (Saturday)

No, the Sabbath mentioned here was a “special” holy day as John relates—not the weekly Sabbath. The women purchased the spices on Friday, the day between the Sabbaths.

If the Seder is eaten on the eve of the Passover, assuming that is 1800, then that would mean that Jesus would have died during the Passover because the Passover day starts from 1800 to 1799.

I think the latter is correct because Matthew 26:17-20 says: On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread,

This was the Holy Day. The Sabbath. Nisan 15.

9 the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?” He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The teacher says, “My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”’” The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered, and prepared the Passover. When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve.

But you are forgetting Jesus told them this well before the preparation day.

Wed 1800 to Thur 1799 : First Day of the Passover (Hight Sabbath) culminating with the Seder

**Thurs 1800 to Fri 1799 **: Workday in between, preparation day for ordinary Sabbath. Jesus was arrested, tried, crucified, died and entombed on this day. Women prepare the spices for burial

But they did that “after” the Sabbath.

Sat 1800 - Sun 1799 - First day of the Week. Women went to the tomb while it was still dark which could be anywhere between 1800 and 0600.

You have locked yourself into the 3 days and 3 nights and are trying to hard to make everything conform to this. But you just can’t do that if you take into account all the gospels.

Even if you take Matthew’s account alone where this is mentioned, you cannot fit the 3 days and 3 nights theory in it.

You are incorrect. The meal eaten on Preparation Day was what we would call “The Last Supper,” but was the Passover Supper. Please read the 23rd chapter of Leviticus and you will see how the Festival lasted for several days. The first day of Unleavened Bread was the day after the Passover which would have been the 15th of Nisan and this feast lasted for several days. The first day was a Holy Day and then the seventh day was a Holy Day.

According to the Scriptures, Christ was chosen as the Lamb on the 10th day of Nisan as stated in Exodus.

Exodus 12:3 “Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:”

We say that Christ was the sacrificial lamb but He was not the lamb slaughtered for the Passover Meal. He died at precisely 3 pm, the same time as the lambs would have been slaughtered on the day of slaughter.

You keep writing so much to say I am wrong but yet I don’t see how you can possible get three days and three nights, or even a portion of three days and three nights out of Friday sunset to prior to daybreak on Sunday. You are the one in an untenable position here. You have nothing for proof of what you write but speculation about an idiom. Give us some facts, not conjecture. Using your timetable we can’t possibly get any part of three nights…

The three days and three nights were the word of Jesus Himself and I can’t see how you can “toss it aside” so easily. Scripture even tells us what Christ did during that three days and three nights. If we neglect the teaching of God’s word, then we place it beneath the traditions of men so criticized by Christ in Mark 7:8-9 “For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”

Because of the writing styles and different time frames, etc. we must look at all the gospels in order to arrive at the truth. Not pick out just one and go with that. The differences are very slight but do exist and that is one reason this subject has been debated for so long.

Sorry I couldn’t reprint most of what you said because of space limitations but I believe I answered them all…

 

[cfrancis]

My position hasn’t changed. The resurrection was either at the end of the third day or “after” the third day as Scripture tells us. I would say it had to be at approximately the ending of the Sabbath.

Thanks again, Cal. You seem to be a bit hesitant about the number of the day Christ rose. Here’s what I have for your position:

Cal, thank you for your reply; I admit I was looking for a format similar to the one benedictus2 put forth. I went through all your posts and put together what I believe to be what you are saying. I would like to know if what I have below accurately presents your position:

Wednesday
Tuesday 6PM (the beginning of Wednesday) = Last Supper
Wednessday ~9AM = crucifixion
Wednesday ~3PM = death of our Savior
Wednesday before 6PM = entombment

Thursday, Nt 1, Day 1
Wednesday 6PM to daybreak Thursday = 1st NT
Wednesday 6PM to Thursday 6PM = 1st Day

Friday, Nt 2 Day 2
Thursday 6Pm to daybreak Friday = 2nd NT
Thursday 6PM to Friday 6PM = 2nd Day

Saturday, Nt 3 Day 3
Friday 6PM to daybreak Saturday = 3rd NT
Friday 6PM to Saturday 6PM = 3rd Day

Sunday Nt 4 Day 4
Saturday 6PM to Sunday daybreak = 4th NT
Saturday 6PM to Sunday 6PM = 4th Day
Christ rose some time after Saturday 6PM and before daybreak Sunday

To get three full days and three full nights, according to your position, we have the crucifixion on Wednesday morning and the entombment before Wednesday 6PM. Let’s say, Wed 4PM for entombment.
Wed 4PM - Thur 4PM = 1 full night, 1 full day
Thur - Fri = 1 full night, 1 full day
Fri - Sat = 1 full night, 1 full day

Wed 4PM to Sat 4PM gives us 3 full nights, three full days.

We know Christ rose on the first day of the week (Sunday) which mean He rose after 6PM Saturday.

This places Christ’s resurrection on the 4th day, right?

 

[benedictus2]

You keep writing so much to say I am wrong but yet I don’t see how you can possible get three days and three nights, or even a portion of three days and three nights out of Friday sunset to prior to daybreak on Sunday. .

I think you have failed to read my post properly and in detail. Please go through my chronology and insert in that chronology where you think I may have gone wrong.

I actually did a chronology for a Wed crucifixion and it just did not square with the Gospel accounts even that of Matthew which has the "3 days and 3 nights’.

Please go through the chronology and point out where the weakness is.

I have said this over and over again, it is your insistence to go with the literal 3 days and 3 nights that has you undone because the rest of the gospel accounts (as I have show above) just does not square with this one.

Anyway, i am taking a few weeks off from this board so will probably not see your post. But I will when I get back and if the thread is still live I will give a reply.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Is there anything in scripture to contradict this:

According to this view, Wednesday of that week was the High Sabbath, the first day of the passover. Can this be refuted from scripture?

Hi Neil,

I hope I’m not too late to join this thread…

The following is a Protestant website that shows that the “three days and three nights” does not just refer to the death of Jesus but also to His suffering which started on the Thursday night.
blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives/The%20Sign%20of%20Jonah.htm

And I believe that there is evidence - historical, scientific, and biblical - which tells me that the Crucifixion took place on Friday 3rd April 33 AD.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Hi Neil,

I hope I’m not too late to join this thread…

The following is a Protestant website that shows that the “three days and three nights” does not just refer to the death of Jesus but also to His suffering which started on the Thursday night.
blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives/The%20Sign%20of%20Jonah.htm

And I believe that there is evidence - historical, scientific, and biblical - which tells me that the Crucifixion took place on Friday 3rd April 33 AD.

This is fascinating information. Thakn you!
I researched it a bit more and found this NASA site which confirms that there was a lunar eclipse on the afternoon of April 3, 33AD.
eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEcat/LE0001-0100.html

Also this site confirms that April 3, 33AD was Nissan 14 and a Friday:
timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?month=4&year=33&country=34

 

[juliamajor]

Many ancients “days” were not 24 hr. A day started at first light and ended when the dark came.A Day in Rome would start earlier in the summer then the winter, because there was more daylight in summer and extended until the evening came.So a day in summer could be from 5am to 10 pm during summer then 7am to 5 pm during winter. Twenty four hours is meaningless to people who can’t move or work or see because of their lack of technology. Oil lamps and torches don’t cut it. To Go outside when the sun was down was to take real chance with your life.:

 

[Ignatius]

In Jewish tradition, any part of a day counts as an entire day and night. This is why there is no contradiction between the three days and three nights quote in your post and the several other verses in Matthew and elsehwere that talk only about after 3 days. Thus, Jesus was buried on Friday night (before sabbath) - so Friday is day 1, saturday is day 2, and sunday is day 3.

As the very earliest christians celebrated the lord’s day sunday as the day of the resurrection - you think they would know (e.g., taught by the apostles themselves). So re-reading scripture today with today’s cultural lense and ignoring the jewish thinking of the “days” and the apostolic tradition (teachings by those who witnessed the events) is dangerous and leads to odd conclusions (like a wednesday crucifiction).

Exactly! Those relying on their own understanding frequently make this type of error by interpreting Holy Scripture anachronistically. It was easily understood by the people of the time, but the without True understanding being passed down by Sacred Tradition, the meaning of scripture is quickly lost and even by well intentioned people who can twist it’s meaning to their own destruction.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

This is fascinating information. Thakn you!
I researched it a bit more and found this NASA site which confirms that there was a lunar eclipse on the afternoon of April 3, 33AD.
eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEcat/LE0001-0100.html

Also this site confirms that April 3, 33AD was Nissan 14 and a Friday:
timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?month=4&year=33&country=34

Isn’t it amazing? When the crucifixion occured, the sun, moon, and earth were aligned in a specific fashion to be some sort of a cosmic witness. What an awesome God!

 

[Halos1n2Horns]

Tell me something i am interested in where in the bible it says he was burried in the ground. In my bible it says he was laid in a tomb. Catholic most holy day’s of the year are the triduim easter.

thrusday is holy day and the day Jesus washed the apostles feet, How can he wash there feet and be burried?

Friday ( good friday) he died we venerate the cross.

Easter he rose and we celebrate our risen Christ.

Does this make sense as in the 3 days?

Halos

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Tell me something i am interested in where in the bible it says he was burried in the ground. In my bible it says he was laid in a tomb. Catholic most holy day’s of the year are the triduim easter.

thrusday is holy day and the day Jesus washed the apostles feet, How can he wash there feet and be burried?

Friday ( good friday) he died we venerate the cross.

Easter he rose and we celebrate our risen Christ.

Does this make sense as in the 3 days?

Halos

The Apostles Creed states that He rose from dead on the third day. Friday - the day of the Crucifixion - was the first day, Saturday was the second day, and Sunday was the third day.

But the “three days and three nights” is a reference to the sign of Jonah, and as I stated in post # 92, the sign of Jonah is not just about His death but also His suffering which started on the Thursday night.