Crucifixion

[pac]

Hey everyone…

I am curious in a particular scripture which I believe is in the end the Gospel of Luke…Jesus tells a man that is being crucified with him that he will be in paradise today with Jesus…I have been taught that when Jesus died he descened into hell before he went to Heaven…can anybody explain this to me…I apolgize if this subject matter has already been discussed in a previous thread

thanks in advance

 

[Abiien]

I believe when you die that all time is no longer, and maybe when they died they will both appear timely on earth, but in heaven and hell it is non-existant and he would not be wrong in saying Today. For Today he shall die and from then on there is no time.

Not sure though.

 

[Abiien]

Jesus WAS God, and Jesus was the bridge of Man to God.
By saying TODAY you will be in paradise with ME he was not inaccurate or lying. for 3 in 1 (as of 50 days later) but in this case 2 in 1 were talking about. Jesus GOD was in hell saving all the people where as GOD GOD is in heaven being GOD GOD at the same time. guess we can call it Bilocation, haha.

But He was saying he was GOD. and today he will be in Heaven with Him (GOD)

You see what i am saying?

 

[Todd_Easton]

When the Apostles’ Creed was first translated into English the word “hell” had a much broader meaning than it does today and meant the abode of all the dead, the abode of the righteous dead in comfort (a paradise sometimes called the bosom of Abraham, in the Bible) and the abode of the unrighteous dead in fiery torment (the hell of the damned). Jesus and the Good Thief first descended into the part of “hell” that was the abode of the righteous dead in comfort (a paradise). Jesus then led all the righteous dead, including the Good Thief, from paradise into heaven itself, leaving “hell” with only the unrighteous dead in fiery torment.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Pac,

In ;Jewish terminology, to go down into Sheol (= Hell= the nether regions) means simply to die. We affirm that Jesus really died before he resurrected.

Verbum

 

[Jesusstreet]

Hey everyone…

I am curious in a particular scripture which I believe is in the end the Gospel of Luke…Jesus tells a man that is being crucified with him that he will be in paradise today with Jesus…I have been taught that when Jesus died he descened into hell before he went to Heaven…can anybody explain this to me…I apolgize if this subject matter has already been discussed in a previous thread

thanks in advance

Matthew 12:40 *For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

First of all, we say “SON OF MAN” here, JESUS has a nature which is “hypostatic” that is JESUS is both GOD and man in THE WORD MADE FLESH. This would as another commentor points out be the “abode of the dead” and we know JESUS went there, as they were released after the resurrection and appeared to many. Saint Peter also speaks of JESUS going to a prison during this time in his Epistle. These would then be the Jewish Saints? (1 Peter 3:19)

Further, GOD cannot die, but we may think for a moment, if hell is seperation from GOD, then JESUS couldn’t go to hell being GOD, but of course JESUS could possibly be seperated from GOD our FATHER, but that’s a fine theological point in that we also say GOD is omnipresent, but do not say that creation is divine, but is made by the DIVINE.

Further, JESUS had said that he told the Apostles all things he had heard from HIS FATHER, who is JESUS’ HEAD, JESUS is THE WORD OF GOD therefore only speaks that which is DIVINE from the GOD OUR FATHER?

JESUS sets an example for us as humans, and for the BODY OF CHRIST in particular. That is to say CHRIST is present among us, as THE CHURCH which is unified to the DIVINE person of JESUS CHRIST, and thus CHRIST is BODY BLOOD SOUL AND DIVINITY among us on Earth in the person of HIS DIVINE BRIDE that JESUS OUR HEAD the second person of the BLESSED TRINITY is TRULY ONE OF THE FLESH with, JESUS having built the CHURCH from HIS WOUNDS. And by HIS WOUNDS we are healed, and given a share in DIVINE LIFE, that we may LIVE FOREVER the ABUNDANT LIFE.

That being said, the SON OF MAN speaks of JESUS’ human nature? In anycase all of this is fulfilled, and PARADISE was given to those who were the dead Saints who were resurrected given SPIRITual bodies and appeared to many. JESUS in this time, in the three days was giving roots to the VINE which would become THE CHURCH which is still being built to this day . …

We could make interpretations on the meaning fo the agony in the garden, teh abandoment of CHRIST upon teh cross, and the torments of the trial, scourging, carrying of the cross, and the entire passion narative, and how they are all fulfilled in Scripture going back to Genesis 1:1 . … And show all these things were reversing the events in the garden, sins that led to the fall and judgement of GOD, and is here made right by JESUS’ obedience, and restores man to GRACE through JESUS CHRIST.

JESUS is clear he had not ascended to the FATHER, but makes the promise of PARADISE to the good theif. Which is of course a promise of HEAVEN in restoration to the GRACE of adam and eve before the fall. This is his reward for repenting and calling upon JESUS as LORD.

We also see JESUS is praying to GOD OUR FATHER, and even offers up HIS own soul, though also lamenting the Psalm 22 about being abandoned, JESUS also knows what HE is going to do before HE does it. Though JESUS is under the condemnation of the Jews JESUS is clear that HE still has authority to give LIFE, to forgive sin, and commends HIS SPIRIT into GOD our FATHER’S hands . …

This is all scriptual, but there’s nothing specific about what JESUS did for those three days particularly. Other than what Some as Saint Peter did write. So we could conclude JESUS was acting on HIS authority on Earth to pardon sins, and grant LIFE . …

Food for thought . …

 

[thistle]

Matthew 12:40 *For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

First of all, we say “SON OF MAN” here, JESUS has a nature which is “hypostatic” that is JESUS is both GOD and man in THE WORD MADE FLESH. This would as another commentor points out be the “abode of the dead” and we know JESUS went there, as they were released after the resurrection and appeared to many. Saint Peter also speaks of JESUS going to a prison during this time in his Epistle. These would then be the Jewish Saints? (1 Peter 3:19)

Further, GOD cannot die, but we may think for a moment, if hell is seperation from GOD, then JESUS couldn’t go to hell being GOD, but of course JESUS could possibly be seperated from GOD our FATHER, but that’s a fine theological point in that we also say GOD is omnipresent, but do not say that creation is divine, but is made by the DIVINE.

Further, JESUS had said that he told the Apostles all things he had heard from HIS FATHER, who is JESUS’ HEAD, JESUS is THE WORD OF GOD therefore only speaks that which is DIVINE from the GOD OUR FATHER?

JESUS sets an example for us as humans, and for the BODY OF CHRIST in particular. That is to say CHRIST is present among us, as THE CHURCH which is unified to the DIVINE person of JESUS CHRIST, and thus CHRIST is BODY BLOOD SOUL AND DIVINITY among us on Earth in the person of HIS DIVINE BRIDE that JESUS OUR HEAD the second person of the BLESSED TRINITY is TRULY ONE OF THE FLESH with, JESUS having built the CHURCH from HIS WOUNDS. And by HIS WOUNDS we are healed, and given a share in DIVINE LIFE, that we may LIVE FOREVER the ABUNDANT LIFE.

That being said, the SON OF MAN speaks of JESUS’ human nature? In anycase all of this is fulfilled, and PARADISE was given to those who were the dead Saints who were resurrected given SPIRITual bodies and appeared to many. JESUS in this time, in the three days was giving roots to the VINE which would become THE CHURCH which is still being built to this day . …

We could make interpretations on the meaning fo the agony in the garden, teh abandoment of CHRIST upon teh cross, and the torments of the trial, scourging, carrying of the cross, and the entire passion narative, and how they are all fulfilled in Scripture going back to Genesis 1:1 . … And show all these things were reversing the events in the garden, sins that led to the fall and judgement of GOD, and is here made right by JESUS’ obedience, and restores man to GRACE through JESUS CHRIST.

JESUS is clear he had not ascended to the FATHER, but makes the promise of PARADISE to the good theif. Which is of course a promise of HEAVEN in restoration to the GRACE of adam and eve before the fall. This is his reward for repenting and calling upon JESUS as LORD.

We also see JESUS is praying to GOD OUR FATHER, and even offers up HIS own soul, though also lamenting the Psalm 22 about being abandoned, JESUS also knows what HE is going to do before HE does it. Though JESUS is under the condemnation of the Jews JESUS is clear that HE still has authority to give LIFE, to forgive sin, and commends HIS SPIRIT into GOD our FATHER’S hands . …

This is all scriptual, but there’s nothing specific about what JESUS did for those three days particularly. Other than what Some as Saint Peter did write. So we could conclude JESUS was acting on HIS authority on Earth to pardon sins, and grant LIFE . …

Food for thought . …

Jesus IS God and so Cannot be separated from himself!

 

[Jesusstreet]

Jesus IS God and so Cannot be separated from himself!

That is TRUE. And we say GOD is omnipresent. But also say that JESUS THE SON OF GOD was in the belly of the Earth for three days and three nights. And of course the TRINITY is three, a DIVINE FAMILY being ONE GOD, of THREE DIVINE PERSONS. Why did JESUS say:

Mark 15:34 *And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psalms 22:11 *I was cast upon thee from the womb. From my mother’s womb thou art my God,
Psalms 22:25 *Let all the seed of Israel fear him: because he hath not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. Neither hath he turned away his face from me: and when I cried to him he heard me.

Could it be that GOD OUR FATHER looked away from JESUS at this moment? That JESUS THE SON OF GOD carrying our sins, that THE FATHER ceased to look at JESUS, and this was HIS abandonment. Even in the Garden JESUS was sweating blood, knowing what was to come. We do recognize that JESUS IS TRULY DIVINE as JESUS was from the womb, HOLY AND PERFECT. and that JESUS kept faith in prayer.

Was all this just to fulfill scripture, or was it in obedience to the condemnation of the Jews, to which GOD always was loyal even the Jews were not?

Now Abraham did take his son Isaac to the altar and was ready to crucify him, but the Angel stayed his hand, and GOD did just that sacrificed HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, but did GOD stay his hand as well and spare JESUS the fate of the condemnation of the Jews? Some don’t like to say, but the opinion of many is JESUS was in hell for three days, though many also believe that JESUS in this time freed the Jewish saints in limbo.

If seperation from GOD OUR FATHER is hell, if GOD OUR FATHER ceased to look upon THE LORD wouldn’t that abandonment be hell? . . . though JESUS clearl never lost faith and kept on praying, and was resurrected even as JESUS states he had the power to lay it down and take it up again.

I say it is a fine theological point because, we say there is ONE GOD, but we also there are three DIVINE PERSONS in ONE GOD that we call THE TRINITY. I could easily be mistaken here.

But for another example let us quote Saint John the Apostle:

1 John 5:7 *And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

if the HOLY FAMILY OF GOD is three, being one by the same token that a family made in the image of GOD is three and also one, it is possible for the father to leave the mother and go out of town . … it is possible for a father to sacrifice his son as Abraham almost did … .

 

[thistle]

That is TRUE. And we say GOD is omnipresent. But also say that JESUS THE SON OF GOD was in the belly of the Earth for three days and three nights. And of course the TRINITY is three, a DIVINE FAMILY being ONE GOD, of THREE DIVINE PERSONS. Why did JESUS say:

Mark 15:34 *And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psalms 22:11 *I was cast upon thee from the womb. From my mother’s womb thou art my God,
Psalms 22:25 *Let all the seed of Israel fear him: because he hath not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. Neither hath he turned away his face from me: and when I cried to him he heard me.

Could it be that GOD OUR FATHER looked away from JESUS at this moment? That JESUS THE SON OF GOD carrying our sins, that THE FATHER ceased to look at JESUS, and this was HIS abandonment. Even in the Garden JESUS was sweating blood, knowing what was to come. We do recognize that JESUS IS TRULY DIVINE as JESUS was from the womb, HOLY AND PERFECT. and that JESUS kept faith in prayer.

Was all this just to fulfill scripture, or was it in obedience to the condemnation of the Jews, to which GOD always was loyal even the Jews were not?

Now Abraham did take his son Isaac to the altar and was ready to crucify him, but the Angel stayed his hand, and GOD did just that sacrificed HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, but did GOD stay his hand as well and spare JESUS the fate of the condemnation of the Jews? Some don’t like to say, but the opinion of many is JESUS was in hell for three days, though many also believe that JESUS in this time freed the Jewish saints in limbo.

If seperation from GOD OUR FATHER is hell, if GOD OUR FATHER ceased to look upon THE LORD wouldn’t that abandonment be hell? . . . though JESUS clearl never lost faith and kept on praying, and was resurrected even as JESUS states he had the power to lay it down and take it up again.
**
I say it is a fine theological point because, we say there is ONE GOD, but we also there are three DIVINE PERSONS in ONE GOD that we call THE TRINITY. I could easily be mistaken here.**

But for another example let us quote Saint John the Apostle:

1 John 5:7 *And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

if the HOLY FAMILY OF GOD is three, being one by the same token that a family made in the image of GOD is three and also one, it is possible for the father to leave the mother and go out of town . … it is possible for a father to sacrifice his son as Abraham almost did … .

Maybe I misunderstand you so forgive me if I have but are you saying there is a contradiction between one God and three persons in one God?

 

[Jesusstreet]

Maybe I misunderstand you so forgive me if I have but are you saying there is a contradiction between one God and three persons in one God?

There is no contradiction in the idea of ONE GOD and three DIVINE PERSONS. We can show that as man was made in the image of GOD, the HOLY TRINITY is made in image of the family. That man and wife are one of the flesh, and that JESUS AND THE FATHER are ONE GOD. That the family by the union of man and woman have children made manifest of that union. And so too we can say of the HOLY SPIRIT which proceeds from the FATHER AND THE SON, and with the FATHER AND TEH SON is WORSHIPPED AND GLORIFIED.

There’s no contradiction in that. But we are trying to comprehend our awesome and powerful GOD. To which even the human body remains something of a mystery, you’ll notice there are diseases which men cannot cure. but GOD can do all things. When we see we are just sheep, and JESUS THE GOOD SHEPARD, that we must understand how much more JESUS understands that we accept but cannot comprehend. This is the case with the HOLY TRINITY.

That being said, the sense perceptible sign of the image of the HOLY TRINITY to our human eyes, is the family.

I should perhaps speak more boldly, but i recognize i’m infallible, so i acknowledge my human failings. But I also believe these things to be accurate, in CHRIST JESUS.

 

[thistle]

There is no contradiction in the idea of ONE GOD and three DIVINE PERSONS. We can show that as man was made in the image of GOD, the HOLY TRINITY is made in image of the family. That man and wife are one of the flesh, and that JESUS AND THE FATHER are ONE GOD. That the family by the union of man and woman have children made manifest of that union. And so too we can say of the HOLY SPIRIT which proceeds from the FATHER AND THE SON, and with the FATHER AND TEH SON is WORSHIPPED AND GLORIFIED.

There’s no contradiction in that. But we are trying to comprehend our awesome and powerful GOD. To which even the human body remains something of a mystery, you’ll notice there are diseases which men cannot cure. but GOD can do all things. When we see we are just sheep, and JESUS THE GOOD SHEPARD, that we must understand how much more JESUS understands that we accept but cannot comprehend. This is the case with the HOLY TRINITY.

That being said, the sense perceptible sign of the image of the HOLY TRINITY to our human eyes, is the family.

I should perhaps speak more boldly, **but i recognize i’m infallible, **so i acknowledge my human failings. But I also believe these things to be accurate, in CHRIST JESUS.

You’re infallible?? I think you’re taking in too much caffein or something!

 

[estesbob]

Hey everyone…

I am curious in a particular scripture which I believe is in the end the Gospel of Luke…Jesus tells a man that is being crucified with him that he will be in paradise today with Jesus…I have been taught that when Jesus died he descened into hell before he went to Heaven…can anybody explain this to me…I apolgize if this subject matter has already been discussed in a previous thread

thanks in advance

It could be that a comma was misplaced. Instead of

43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

it could be

43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth today , you will be with me in paradise.”

This verse is very often used by protestants to argue against Purgatory.

 

[Jesusstreet]

You’re infallible?? I think you’re taking in too much caffein or something!

sorry, typo there, i should edit better . … addendum “not”

 

[Jesusstreet]

Maybe I misunderstand you so forgive me if I have but are you saying there is a contradiction between one God and three persons in one God?

You do misundertand me. I am not saying the TRINITY is contradictory, though often misunderstood. I am saying that the TRINITY is cannot be fully comprehended, but is imaged in the family for an intuitive understanding of GOD we look at ourselves, man being made in the image of GOD and the family being the image of the HOLY TRINITY, mother, father, and child are like as to FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST.

I’ve spent some time contemplating 1 John 5:7-8 . … there is a deep mystery here which i believe leads us to a deeper understanding of GOD’s plan of salavation. Of ourselves, our faith, and GOD ALMIGHTY.

1 John 5:7 *And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
8 *And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

 

[estesbob]

sorry, typo there, i should edit better . … addendum “not”

Thats good-the only infallible one around here is me!

 

[Gill79]

Hey everyone…

I am curious in a particular scripture which I believe is in the end the Gospel of Luke…Jesus tells a man that is being crucified with him that he will be in paradise today with Jesus…I have been taught that when Jesus died he descened into hell before he went to Heaven…can anybody explain this to me…I apolgize if this subject matter has already been discussed in a previous thread

thanks in advance

yes Jesus died and both him and thief went straight to hell for 3 full days and nights. OT saints been long waiting for christ. and he free them went open to heaven give gifts to them and sit onright hand of God. since Christ having fulfilled it we go straight to heaven without waiting in hades!

Gillian

 

[estesbob]

pac;2550403:

Hey everyone…

I am curious in a particular scripture which I believe is in the end the Gospel of Luke…Jesus tells a man that is being crucified with him that he will be in paradise today with Jesus…I have been taught that when Jesus died he descened into hell before he went to Heaven…can anybody explain this to me…I apolgize if this subject matter has already been discussed in a previous thread

thanks in advance

yes Jesus died and both him and thief went straight to hell for 3 full days and nights. OT saints been long waiting for christ. and he free them went open to heaven give gifts to them and sit onright hand of God. since Christ having fulfilled it we go straight to heaven without waiting in hades!

Gillian

After a stop in purgatory, of course.

 

[Manresa]

No big mystery, if I go pick my daughter up from school, she will be home with me from that minute on for the rest of the day, even if I drop her off at home and leave her home with her mother while I run to Lowes.

What Our Lord is saying to the good theif, tradition gives us his name but I at the moment cannot recall it, is that from this moment onward you will be in paradise.

It all comes down to how God dispenses His grace, to whom He dispenses to and when and how He dispenses it. And that is ground that we should dare not tread.

 

[Gill79]

After a stop in purgatory, of course.

is that 1 peter 5.7 ?

where it said after Christ arose. i dont know word purgatory but limbo limbo of jew waiting for christ who are free since christ died paid for us and so in that price he paid went down there free saints and taking power from devil.

im not sure of your meaning of that in particlur?

Gillian

 

[estesbob]

After a stop in purgatory, of course

is that 1 peter 5.7 ?

where it said after Christ arose. i dont know word purgatory but limbo limbo of jew waiting for christ who are free since christ died paid for us and so in that price he paid went down there free saints and taking power from devil.

im not sure of your meaning of that in particlur?

Gillian

Welcome to the forums. You can find out about purgatory here:
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

Better to find out about it now than when you get there.

1Peter5:7 has nothing to do with purgatory.