Cruelty to animals and Church leadership

[kbwall]

Well, I would say that your arguments lack logic.

I could say that the argument for animals having immortal souls lacks even more logic.

It is not for us to decide for God. It is not about cuteness.

If it is not about cuteness, then why all this talk about pets and how much people love their pets? That doesn’t mean anything at all in regards to whether or not animals have immortal souls or not. All loving your pet means is that you love your pet, nothing more, nothing less. It just means that some humans have placed a very high value on animals’ lives.

Which brings me to my next point that people have a tendency to anthropomorphize animals more than they are.

I would think meat animals deserve a heaven. It may just not be with us.

It’s not about whether they deserve or not, it concerns the fact that by eating meat and killing for food, if animals had immortal souls, then you are effectively commiting/condoning mass murder. Even worse than the abortion industry. It horrifies some to know that over a millions babies have been murdered after abortion was legalized. The meat industry kills that many in a day. A pointless statistic if animals didn’t have immortal souls, but if they do, then we have serious sin to answer for.

It also begs the question of why do we and why should we care more for human life than animal life if animals have the exact same kind of soul humans do.

Would they want to be with humans?

That’s exactly the thing. Would they? Oh wait, they’re animals who can’t even comprehend the significance of being around humans.

Actually even St Aquinas said animals have souls as do plants, though not immortal souls.

Well, of course that then begs the question of what exactly is a soul, if beings who can’t even think have them. But in any case, what I’m arguing here is that animals don’t have the same immortal soul that human beings do.

 

[He_Man]

If I see with my own eyes what is true, then no authority can deny it.

As a Priest told me once, beware of visions and tongues. You don’t know which direction they may have come from.

Maybe, it is just me, but I don’t have enough energy to care or worry. I listen to whatever the Church says on important matters, and worry about whether I am my family are headed towards Heaven.

If my dog is there, great, but I don;t believe when standing in the glory of an infitely wonderful and powerful God, our Creator, that I’ll pull my eyes away to see if anyone else is there, much less my Labrador, Mia.

When facing God, how could ANYTHING else even matter?

 

[grandfather]

This is what I’d like to know, too, honestly. What do people get out of this?

I think its worth pointing out that I have rarely in real life met (as opposed to CAF) catholics and clergy who are against the idea of animals in heaven, and many approve of steps being taken to end violent practices such as bullfighting.

Reality is what it is. In our modern confusion we think what people think about reality defines it. Suppose 90% of people thought abortion is a moral act. Some guy writes he and his dog are offended. He probably believes his dog really cares what any human writes about dogs on the internet, or is capable of having an opinion. Good grief!

It is loony to impose human traits on pets. Your dog does not care about heaven as your dog does not care that he can’t play the violin. Your dog does not pray. He does not think the thoughts humans think. Your dog can not be in union with God in the way God reveals humans are. We are made one with God as spouses. Your dog can not do this any more than he can marry you or a porpoise or a bumblebee.

You just don’t seem to get it and keep asking why some people are opposed to pets being in heaven. It does not matter what people are for or against. That is irrelevant. If most people think men can marry men, or most people think that is impossible it changes nothing. Men marry women. It is God who joins them and He does not marry men to men. It does not matter what every government of the entire world says, wants, believes.

Your dog can not participate in the relationship God made you to have with Him. Thinking otherwise is spiritual ignorance.

I took a long walk in the woods yesterday with two friends and two dogs. The humans had various conversations about the nature around them, current events, looked at native plants, thought about rock formations. The dogs ran happily around, chased squirrels and birds, smelled scents, fetched sticks jumped in streams and rolled in dirt. They are already fulfilled in their nature, perfectly happy. We are not. There is something we know we lack that can not be fulfilled here. If you can not see the vast difference which is a spiritual difference as plain as day I just don’t know what to say.

You keep saying why do some people not want pets in heaven. It is not a matter of what anyone wants.

 

[grandfather]

I dont see the problem - why shouldn’t dirt as we know it be in heaven? I dont know what you are getting at bringing in Muslim men here, I hardly think having pets in heaven is the same and frankly it is a distasteful comparison to make. I mean, really?

I was not trying to make a comparison between one idea or another. The point was that people make up their own spiritual realities, or try to. Are we made in God’s image or do we make God in ours?

Muslims invent their idea of what heaven is like and believe it. To them it is a place where they will have endless sex with virgins. This is crazy. Maybe you think you will play chase the stick with a deceased pet ex family member. What you project about the afterlife based on your experience here is irrelevant. You want your pet with you to share it and Muslims want their sex objects.

All we know about the life to come is what has been revealed by God. It is something we can not comprehend having no experience of it, but the things God reveals about it tell us that it is like unto a marriage of a bride and groom who delight in their intimacy with one another. I don’t think too many people take their pets on their honeymoons, but maybe some do. Even so the pets don’t participate in the initimacy.

Sorry, I still do not see how any of this proves that animals will not be in heaven, or that people who believe so are comparable to Muslims and Mormons.

So see if you can get fido an invitation and a wedding garment. He will fit right in. When you get an invitation to a wedding that says you and your spouse and family are invited to come celbrate the marriage of Sue and Jim, do you really think your pets are included?

I can’t do this anymore. This thread has a guy who lists himself as a non believer saying pets will be in heaven, because Jesus shares dna with rats or amoeba, when non believers don’t believe in God or heaven and someone agreed with him. The irrationality is kind of overwhelming. The dialogue reminds me of an Abbott and Costello routine.

 

[bigfootbob]

Mature? Logical? How does that relate to your virtual shouting by using caps. I wonder about people who need to shout from the rooftops about how important and great humans are compared to humans.

I use capital letters to convey my point, to get it across more clearly, and to highlight its importance. I don’t normally shout, and when I do, there’s a good reason. You don’t need to assume I do

Yes, God made us in His Image, with superior intellect. I would think that should go with humility. We should be humble before God and let God tell us how great we are.

That is irrelevant to the argument. My argument is that we need to know animal’s places. NOT at the same level of importance as humans (I’m not shouting). I’m not ashamed to say I’m better than any other animal, and there’s no reason I should be. Why would I need to brag about the obvious?

One question. Do you want your family members to be in heaven? I do. If you need only God in heaven, you will not need your family members. We may not need anything more in heaven but it is about what we want and certainly about what God wants.

I can see your point of view; however, we need to remember again that animals are not as important as humans, not even remotely. There is nothing wrong with wanting your pet to go to heaven, but we can’t place them at the same level as humans.

The bottom line is this:
I want the people I love to go to heaven because I LOVE them (again, not shouting…). Yeah, I liked my dog, but I couldn’t truly love it in a deeper sense because it is simply not a human and not made in the image and likeness of God.

 

[bigfootbob]

None of this even remotely proves anything about animals and heaven. If you are so convinced that you are right, why the thinly veiled implication that anyone who disagrees with you is immature and illogical?

My argument was logical, and I don’t think anyone can deny that (no one has tried anyhow). You can disagree with my opinions and the conclusions I draw; that’s fine with me and I don’t consider you immature and illogical for that. I do consider it immature and illogical to disagree with my first point (and what I wrote in capitals), as I indicated.

By the way, writing in caps does not make an argument.

Cheers

It does emphasize one though. Perhaps the capital letters distracted you from the argument I was making with them . I wanted to make the things that were especially important very clear and prominent. Capital letters do the job nicely.

 

[severus68]

I could say that the argument for animals having immortal souls lacks even more logic.

If it is not about cuteness, then why all this talk about pets and how much people love their pets? That doesn’t mean anything at all in regards to whether or not animals have immortal souls or not. All loving your pet means is that you love your pet, nothing more , nothing less. It just means that some humans have placed a very high value on animals’ lives.

Which brings me to my next point that people have a tendency to anthropomorphize animals more than they are.

It’s not about whether they deserve or not, it concerns the fact that by eating meat and killing for food, if animals had immortal souls, then you are effectively commiting/condoning mass murder. Even worse than the abortion industry. It horrifies some to know that over a millions babies have been murdered after abortion was legalized. The meat industry kills that many in a day. A pointless statistic if animals didn’t have immortal souls, but if they do, then we have serious sin to answer for.

It also begs the question of why do we and why should we care more for human life than animal life if animals have the exact same kind of soul humans do.

That’s exactly the thing. Would they? Oh wait, they’re animals who can’t even comprehend the significance of being around humans.

Well, of course that then begs the question of what exactly is a soul, if beings who can’t even think have them. But in any case, what I’m arguing here is that animals don’t have the same immortal soul that human beings do.

I never said anything about what kind of souls animals have.

I do not love my human family members because of them being cute so why would my caring about animals be about cuteness. No one supporting animals in heaven mentioned anything about cuteness. I am sure God places a high value on animals too and I can’t understand this desire in some to make animals less than they are.

That tends to be the last line of argument for people who have an issue with those who care about animals.

So if or since animals do not have immortal souls, we do not have to be bothered with being cruel to them and abusing them? I notice abortion is always brought in even when of no relevance to a thread.

The thread is about cruelty to animals.

 

[severus68]

I use capital letters to convey my point, to get it across more clearly, and to highlight its importance. I don’t normally shout, and when I do, there’s a good reason. You don’t need to assume I do
That is irrelevant to the argument. My argument is that we need to know animal’s places. NOT at the same level of importance as humans (I’m not shouting). I’m not ashamed to say I’m better than any other animal, and there’s no reason I should be. Why would I need to brag about the obvious?

I can see your point of view; however, we need to remember again that animals are not as important as humans, not even remotely. There is nothing wrong with wanting your pet to go to heaven, but we can’t place them at the same level as humans.

The bottom line is this:
I want the people I love to go to heaven because I LOVE them (again, not shouting…). Yeah, I liked my dog, but I couldn’t truly love it in a deeper sense because it is simply not a human and not made in the image and likeness of God.

Just 2 points - (1) without referring to anyone in particular, I ike my animals a lot better than some people I have met. I have never met a sly animal or one who is a crook, has an agenda other than to eat, sleep and survive, or starts wars; (2) I love my animals, full stop. I do not analyse that love.

 

[severus68]

Reality is what it is. In our modern confusion we think what people think about reality defines it. Suppose 90% of people thought abortion is a moral act. Some guy writes he and his dog are offended. He probably believes his dog really cares what any human writes about dogs on the internet, or is capable of having an opinion. Good grief!

It is loony to impose human traits on pets. Your dog does not care about heaven as your dog does not care that he can’t play the violin. Your dog does not pray. He does not think the thoughts humans think. Your dog can not be in union with God in the way God reveals humans are. We are made one with God as spouses. Your dog can not do this any more than he can marry you or a porpoise or a bumblebee.

You just don’t seem to get it and keep asking why some people are opposed to pets being in heaven. It does not matter what people are for or against. That is irrelevant. If most people think men can marry men, or most people think that is impossible it changes nothing. Men marry women. It is God who joins them and He does not marry men to men. It does not matter what every government of the entire world says, wants, believes.

Your dog can not participate in the relationship God made you to have with Him. Thinking otherwise is spiritual ignorance.

I took a long walk in the woods yesterday with two friends and two dogs. The humans had various conversations about the nature around them, current events, looked at native plants, thought about rock formations. The dogs ran happily around, chased squirrels and birds, smelled scents, fetched sticks jumped in streams and rolled in dirt. They are already fulfilled in their nature, perfectly happy. We are not. There is something we know we lack that can not be fulfilled here. If you can not see the vast difference which is a spiritual difference as plain as day I just don’t know what to say.

You keep saying why do some people not want pets in heaven. It is not a matter of what anyone wants.

No one who supports animals in heaven or about taking steps to stop cruelty to animals (more in line with the topic of this thread), is saying animals are humans.

What has marriage to do with animals in heaven please?

Animals glorify God. We have no idea of the true relationship between God and His animals.

Why is it important for you to insist animals will not be in heaven. Our belief that they will does not affect you at all.

 

[severus68]

I was not trying to make a comparison between one idea or another. The point was that people make up their own spiritual realities, or try to. Are we made in God’s image or do we make God in ours?

Muslims invent their idea of what heaven is like and believe it. To them it is a place where they will have endless sex with virgins. This is crazy. Maybe you think you will play chase the stick with a deceased pet ex family member. What you project about the afterlife based on your experience here is irrelevant. You want your pet with you to share it and Muslims want their sex objects.

All we know about the life to come is what has been revealed by God. It is something we can not comprehend having no experience of it, but the things God reveals about it tell us that it is like unto a marriage of a bride and groom who delight in their intimacy with one another. I don’t think too many people take their pets on their honeymoons, but maybe some do. Even so the pets don’t participate in the initimacy.

So see if you can get fido an invitation and a wedding garment. He will fit right in. When you get an invitation to a wedding that says you and your spouse and family are invited to come celbrate the marriage of Sue and Jim, do you really think your pets are included?

I can’t do this anymore. This thread has a guy who lists himself as a non believer saying pets will be in heaven, because Jesus shares dna with rats or amoeba, when non believers don’t believe in God or heaven and someone agreed with him. The irrationality is kind of overwhelming. The dialogue reminds me of an Abbott and Costello routine.

If you are so offended, you could just stay out of this thread. Its just a suggestion, I have no right to tell you what to do. If you make personal comments, you should expect to be responded to in kind.

 

[bigfootbob]

Just 2 points - (1) without referring to anyone in particular, I ike my animals a lot better than some people I have met. I have never met a sly animal or one who is a crook, has an agenda other than to eat, sleep and survive, or starts wars; (2) I love my animals, full stop. I do not analyse that love.

Haha… yeah I know what you mean.

However, it is our free will that makes us capable of love. Unfortunately that makes it hard to love other people sometimes.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you understand and agree with the point that I’m trying to get across: We shouldn’t love animals on the same level of humans (even if we don’t like the humans), and if indeed they go to heaven, they are nowhere near as important and needed as humans are to God.

That being said, I have met people that don’t seem to understand that (I’m not referring to anyone that has posted on this thread). Their love of animals goes to a point that I consider sinful.

This thread has gotten derailed (Sorry… I’m guilty too )
Everything that I have argued about can be applied to animal abuse though.

Here is my position on it: We are stewards of creation. We are called to responsibly take care of all creation. Animals are less important than humans, but as far as I’m concerned THEY ARE NEXT IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE (not shouting). Therefore, we can not tolerate animal abuse as faithful Catholics; however, we also can not love animals more than what is proper.
I sincerely think everyone can and should agree with that.

 

[severus68]

Haha… yeah I know what you mean.

However, it is our free will that makes us capable of love. Unfortunately that makes it hard to love other people sometimes.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you understand and agree with the point that I’m trying to get across: We shouldn’t love animals on the same level of humans (even if we don’t like the humans), and if indeed they go to heaven, they are nowhere near as important and needed as humans are to God.

That being said, I have met people that don’t seem to understand that (I’m not referring to anyone that has posted on this thread). Their love of animals goes to a point that I consider sinful.

This thread has gotten derailed (Sorry… I’m guilty too )
Everything that I have argued about can be applied to animal abuse though.

Here is my position on it: We are stewards of creation. We are called to responsibly take care of all creation. Animals are less important than humans, but as far as I’m concerned THEY ARE NEXT IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE (not shouting). Therefore, we can not tolerate animal abuse as faithful Catholics; however, we also can not love animals more than what is proper.
I sincerely think everyone can and should agree with that.

I think animals feel love too, my animals show us that everyday.

I do agree we should love everyone in the way Christ taught us. I have no idea how we can love any animal too much. How can it be sinful? Of course if I were to buy 10 pedigree dogs, feed, pamper them and ignore my children, that would be very wrong in more ways than one.

I hope to be with God one day when all will be revealed. I believe we need God, God does not need us but wants us because God loves us. I will leave God to explain His relationship to His animals.

 

[bigfootbob]

I think animals feel love too, my animals show us that everyday.

I agree, but not the same kind of love as humans. Love is a choice of our free will. In my opinion, the love that animals show is instinctive. If you treat an animal well, it will love you, and that’s the awesome thing about them. Yes, you hear stories about animals doing great things to save humans or what have you, but I don’t think it is the same kind of deep spiritual love that we experience as humans.

I do agree we should love everyone in the way Christ taught us. I have no idea how we can love any animal too much. How can it be sinful? Of course if I were to buy 10 pedigree dogs, feed, pamper them and ignore my children, that would be very wrong in more ways than one.

You can love money too much. Of course animals merit more love than an inanimate object, but they do NOT merit the love that we show other humans, and when I see people that love their pet in the same manner they would a human person, I consider it sinful.

I hope to be with God one day when all will be revealed. I believe we need God, God does not need us but wants us because God loves us. I will leave God to explain His relationship to His animals.

Agreed. I accidentally wrote that God needs us without thinking… whoops

 

[He_Man]

If Heaven is our eternal reward, perfection forever, how could an animal who can neither do good nor evil, be a consideraton for that reward? Do plants go there too?

And either way, why would anyone care, if they even grasped a fraction of what “paradise” meant?

In the face of God, why would you care if a cat was with you? I have three cats and a lab, but I want to spend eternity with God.

 

[kbwall]

I do not love my human family members because of them being cute so why would my caring about animals be about cuteness. No one supporting animals in heaven mentioned anything about cuteness. I am sure God places a high value on animals too and I can’t understand this desire in some to make animals less than they are.

Maybe not cuteness, but everybody in this topic is only arguing for the animals they like, and only using their love for their pets as evidence. Not only does that mean nothing in regards to whether or not animals have souls (simply because we love them does not grant them souls, nor does it mean they get human characteristics), but nobody has said anything in regards to animals people don’t really like, like bugs and farm animals.

Seriously, loving or not loving your pet is completely irrelevant. It is not lunacy or immaturity to love your pet, but it is when you start to believe that your pet has human characteristics.

So if or since animals do not have immortal souls, we do not have to be bothered with being cruel to them and abusing them?

I never said that, and I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth.

I notice abortion is always brought in even when of no relevance to a thread.

Except it is relevant. If animals have immortal souls on par with humans, then the meat industry is far, far worse than all the abortion clinics in America put together. If animals have immortal souls on par with humans, then animal life has the exact same value as human life. Jesus also ate fish, which are animals, so take that what you will.

But your side chooses to ignore these implications, ignoring all the logic, and instead chooses to ramble on about how much some people love their pets and how perfectly normal people can love pets. That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t grant them souls.

The thread is about cruelty to animals.

That has long changed.

 

[Jesusissacred]

Thistle,

There are many people who love their dogs/pets and would want them to be in heaven. This is perfectly understandable, a pet forms part of the family for many people. It is extremely ignorant and saddening that many Christians can not respect this.

People want their dogs and pets to be in heaven because they love them and anyway, nobody here can decide who goes to heaven and who does not. For only God Almighty knows this!

Isn’t it quite arrogant that some people convey “Humans are superior to animals thus animals do not go to heaven?” We have characteristics in common with animals and just because animals can not speak and convey ideas through speech doesn’t mean that they cannot love others and are incapable of emotion.

 

[bigfootbob]

Thistle,

There are many people who love their dogs/pets and would want them to be in heaven. This is perfectly understandable, a pet forms part of the family for many people. It is extremely ignorant and saddening that many Christians can not respect this.

People want their dogs and pets to be in heaven because they love them and anyway, nobody here can decide who goes to heaven and who does not. For only God Almighty knows this!

Isn’t it quite arrogant that some people convey “Humans are superior to animals thus animals do not go to heaven?” We have characteristics in common with animals and just because animals can not speak and convey ideas through speech doesn’t mean that they cannot love others and are incapable of emotion.

Welcome to CAF! I see that you are a Universalist, so you may be unfamiliar with Catholic teaching…

As Catholics, we believe that humans are made in the image and likeness of God, and that animals are not. We are made for communion with God, and an animal simply cannot have that at the same level we can. Any of the Catholics on here do or should agree with that, and anyone who is familiar with Catholic theology should be able to figure that out.

Where the disagreement comes in is whether or not animals can go to heaven. Some of us think that it is very unlikely, and others think it is quite likely. None of us can say for sure because the Church has not said whether or not they can go to heaven.

 

[severus68]

If Heaven is our eternal reward, perfection forever, how could an animal who can neither do good nor evil, be a consideraton for that reward? Do plants go there too?

And either way, why would anyone care, if they even grasped a fraction of what “paradise” meant?

In the face of God, why would you care if a cat was with you? I have three cats and a lab, but I want to spend eternity with God.

I am sure you would want your family to be in heaven and if so, your argument does not hold water.

 

[severus68]

]Maybe not cuteness, but everybody in this topic is only arguing for the animals they like, and only using their love for their pets as evidence. Not only does that mean nothing in regards to whether or not animals have souls (simply because we love them does not grant them souls, nor does it mean they get human characteristics), but nobody has said anything in regards to animals people don’t really like, like bugs and farm animals.

Actually I did talk about other animals and made it clear that it was not about cuteness but about God.

Seriously, loving or not loving your pet is completely irrelevant. It is not lunacy or immaturity to love your pet, but it is when you start to believe that your pet has human characteristics.

You keep repeating the same thing. Animals can love etc. No one said they want power and money, very human traits.

I never said that, and I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth.

My apologies then.

Except it is relevant. If animals have immortal souls on par with humans, then the meat industry is far, far worse than all the abortion clinics in America put together. If animals have immortal souls on par with humans, then animal life has the exact same value as human life. Jesus also ate fish, which are animals, so take that what you will.

I am not going into that. That part in the bible about Jesus eating fish was when Christ wanted to show that he was resurrected and that was what was given to him to eat. I could say, why didn’t Christ use meat rather than bread at the Last Supper? I do not know.

But your side chooses to ignore these implications, ignoring all the logic, and instead chooses to ramble on about how much some people love their pets and how perfectly normal people can love pets. That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t grant them souls.

That has long changed.

So if you think my ‘side’ is illogical, you should just ignore us. Thomas Aquinas said they have souls but not immortal souls.

 

[severus68]

Thistle,

There are many people who love their dogs/pets and would want them to be in heaven. This is perfectly understandable, a pet forms part of the family for many people. It is extremely ignorant and saddening that many Christians can not respect this.

People want their dogs and pets to be in heaven because they love them and anyway, nobody here can decide who goes to heaven and who does not. For only God Almighty knows this!

Isn’t it quite arrogant that some people convey “Humans are superior to animals thus animals do not go to heaven?” We have characteristics in common with animals and just because animals can not speak and convey ideas through speech doesn’t mean that they cannot love others and are incapable of emotion.

Exactly! Since humans are superior, why should anyone have issues with animals going to heaven. No one is forcing anyone to believe so.