Crusades, Inquisition, Jews

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Joan of Arc was not condemned by an Inquisition, French or otherwise. .
A few references:
sundayschoolcourses.com/inq/inqcont.htm#Joan%20of%20Arc%20(1412%20–%201431

Perhaps the most famous individual victim of the I**nquisition **was the “Maid of Orleans” – Joan of Arc. Joan was born in Domremy, France in 1412.

smu.edu/ijas/pinzino.html

This Pierre Cauchon, formerly rector of the University of Paris, summoned support for the trial from Burgundian allies among the clergy, including faculty members of the university. Sixty or so theologians and clerics served as assessors in the trial, though rarely were all participants present at the same time. Cauchon conducted the trial sessions along with the Deputy Inquisitor of France.
 
Joan of Arc was not condemned by an Inquisition, French or otherwise…
A few more references:
historyguide.org/ancient/joan.html

She was put on trial (February 21-May 17, 1431) on charges of heresy and sorcery by an ecclesiastical court of the Inquisition, presided over by Pierre Cauchon, Bishop of Beauvais.

Book by Marina Warner
Joan of Arc

ucpress.edu/books/pages/9044.html

She has examined the court documents from Joan of Arc’s 1431 Inquisition trial for heresy and woven the facts together with an analysis of the histories, biographies, plays, and paintings and sculptures that have appeared over time to honor this heroine and symbol of France’s nationhood.

nndb.com/people/635/000055470/

By means of negotiations instigated and prosecuted with great perseverance by the university of Paris and the Inquisition, and through the persistent scheming of Pierre Cauchon, the bishop of Beauvais – a Burgundian partisan, who, chased from his own see, hoped to obtain the archbishopric of Rouen – she was sold in November by John of Luxemburg and Burgundy to the English, who on the 3rd of January 1431, at the instance of the university of Paris, delivered her over to the Inquisition for trial.

stjoan-center.com/FAQ/question5.html

on page 100, Ms. Dworkin states, “The** Inquisition **did not honor Joan’s virginity: it was barely mentioned at her trial, except by her. The Inquisition did not accept Joan’s virginity as evidence of her love of God as it would indisputably accept virginity in feminine dress.”

amazon.com/Joan-Arc-Diane-Stanley/dp/0064437485

Joan of Arc by Diane Stanley
Review: From School Library Journal
Stanley finds answers in Joan’s own words spoken before the Inquisition during her trial for heresy and in the 115 eyewitness accounts recorded in the Trial of Rehabilitation held after her martyrdom.
 
Oh really? Like for example, the French Inquisition was humane and fair to St. Joan of Arc? I don’t see the Inquisition process and the sentence of being burned alive at the stake as being fair and humane to St. Joan of Arc.
If the Inquisition had been allowed to operate freely without being grossly manipulated by the English government, St Joan would have been aquitted or more likely the Inquisition wouldn’t even have bothered to investigate her. You’re really getting desperate now. St Joan is the perfect example of how the Inquisition was far more humane and fair to accused persons than the secular courts were.
 
St Joan is the perfect example of how the Inquisition was far more humane and fair to accused persons than the secular courts were.
Oh well. I would have thought that most people would believe that the burning alive of St. Joan of Arc at the stake was not fair and humane. In fact, I think that the sentence of the ecclesiastical court in Rouen, was overturned by the Pope.
 
Oh well. I would have thought that most people would believe that the burning alive of St. Joan of Arc at the stake was not fair and humane. In fact, I think that the sentence of the ecclesiastical court in Rouen, was overturned by the Pope.
And most people who objectively assessed the facts of the case would find your attempt to blame the Church for her execution pathetic and absurd.
 
And most people who objectively assessed the facts of the case would find your attempt to blame the Church for her execution pathetic and absurd.
More misdirection and bluster. The question I was addressing does not have anything to do with whether or not the Church is to blame for the execution of Joan of Arc. The question that I was addressing was whether or not the Inquisition was fair and humane as you have alleged. I beleive that it is false that, as you have said, the inquisition was fair and humane. My statement that the Inquisition was not fair and humane is supported by the fact that innocent people were horribly tortured by the inquisition without knowing what they were being tortured for. Innocent people were burned at the stake as a result of the findings of the inquisition. And I believe that the fact that the Spanish Inquisition was not fair and humane was addressed by Pope Sixtus IV in his bull issued on April 18, 1482, in which His Holiness indicated that the Inquisition was disgusting.
 
More misdirection and bluster. The question I was addressing does not have anything to do with whether or not the Church is to blame for the execution of Joan of Arc.
Then you addressing a question which is irrelevant to the OP. Thank you for confirming that the Church is not the sinful Whore of Babylon. QED.
The question that I was addressing was whether or not the Inquisition was fair and humane as you have alleged. I beleive that it is false that, as you have said, the inquisition was fair and humane.
I’ll thank you not to distort my words. I said that the inquisition was faierera nd more humane than any other court system up to that time. Something no serious modern historian would dispute.
My statement that the Inquisition was not fair and humane is supported by the fact that innocent people were horribly tortured by the inquisition without knowing what they were being tortured for.
really? Name one.
Innocent people were burned at the stake as a result of the findings of the inquisition.
Really? Name one.
And I believe that the fact that the Spanish Inquisition was not fair and humane was addressed by Pope Sixtus IV in his bull issued on April 18, 1482, in which His Holiness indicated that the Inquisition was disgusting.
And yet still you seek to somehow blame the Pope and the Catholic Church. You certainly have incredible persistence and stubbornness if nothing else.
 
A poster wants examples of people being tortured by the Inquisition?
Jacob Petersen from Dunkirk, a sailor aged 20 who was examined by the tribunal of the Canaries in November 1597. He was stripped and bound and tortured by potro. See Kamen p. 191.
"On being given these he said first,‘Oh God!’ and then,‘There’s no mercy’: after the turns he was admonished, and he said,‘I don’t know what to say, oh dear God1’ Then three more turns of the cord were ordered to be given, and after two of them he said,‘Oh God, oh God, there’s no mercy, oh God, help me, help me1’
In 1607, at Valencia, a girl of 13 was tortured. (p. 190, Kamen). A secretary noted every word of a woman accused in 1568 of not eating pork:“She was ordered to be placed on the potro. She said, ‘Senores, when will you not tell me what I have to say? Senor, put me on the ground – have I not said that I did it all ? ‘ She was told to talk. She said ‘I don’t remember – take me away – I did what the witnesses say.’ She was told to tell in detail what the witnesses said. She said, ‘Senor, as I have told you, I do not know for certain. I have said that I did all that the witnesses say. Senores, release me, for I do not remember.’ She was told to talk. She said, ‘Senores, it does not help me to say that I did it and I have admitted that what I have done has brought me to this suffering – Senor, you know the truth – Senores, for God’s sake have mercy on me. Oh Senor, take these things from my arms – Senor release me, they are killing me.’….’I did it – for God’s sake let me go.”
And he wants examples of people being handed over to the civil authorities to be burned at the stake?
Joan of Arc. And her trial at the inquistion was also determined to be inhumane and unfair by the Vatican itself.
This was a most cruel and inhumane and unfair attempt at justice. the methods were barbaric. It is incredible that people are trying to justify these methods and punishments today. Even the Catholic Church has changed its teaching on torture, hasn’t it? It no longer approves of torture to extract confessions.
 
Wow, this thread has really gone there and back and around again! The original post had something to do with the Crusades, Inquisition, and Jews.

Does anyone care what a Jew feels about that? If not, click next and go onto the next post now.

I was raised as a loosely “practicing” Jew. However, anyone who knows Jews knows that “practice” and “ethnic affiliation and culture” are two entirely different things. Having a throroughly Jewish mother with a passion for history (as most Jews are, anyway… its a cultural thing), I got a FIRM cultural education in what being a Jew was all about.

My Mom introduced me to the horrific holocaust history, complete with movies and photos of naked, starved, heaps of corpses… when I was 7 years old. Happy birthday… here’s your family.

She went on to show me the old Testament and some history books – you see, sweetie, folks have hated us from way back. Look at this old Pharoah… despised us! Babylonians? We sat on the banks and weeped big time. Bolsheviks… they dragged your great, great, great grandpa behind their horses until he died. The stories went on from ancient history to modern. Hitler? Let me show you some pictures…

The final message was that this was a thing of biblical proportions. Christians hating us was no different than the Babylonians. I was never taught to hate or resent modern Christians anymore than the Egyptians.

And all through history, there were good folks who reached out to us, and evil folks who beat us instead of their dog when they got drunk.

Honestly, this is an issue between Prots and Cats – don’t drag the Jews into it. My Mom was very happy when I converted to Catholicism… said if I truly believed Jesus was more than just a great teacher (her belief), then she was happy for me, and at least I had the great good sense to choose the Christian denomination that was the closest to the original Judaism from which it originated. My Mom is turning 90 next month, but she has ALWAYS seen Catholics as messianic Jews who have collected a whole heap of gentile believer converts (guess she got that from reading the New Testament… like I said, she was always a great history buff).

OK, for those who read this instead of clicking past, you can return to your food fight.

sojo
 
Thanks. I enjoyed reading your remarks. I believe that some reform Jews are much more liberal in their practice than Orthodox Jews.
Yes, we have both orthodox and reform in our family. The orthodox side of my family all held a formal funeral for my mother when she married a Catholic (who turned atheist after WWII, so they needn’t had bothered), but it was a few members of the Reform that invited us to the usual Jewish events (wedding, bar 'mitzvas, and the obligatory Passover). And my Mom went in and out of her moments of trying to pass on the faith. And my childhood friends who taught me a bit of Hebrew and brought me to Temple were all reform, I believe… But as far as teaching the history and prejudice against the Jews (my family)… that was very succinct and clearly something she had learned from her own family with the instructions to “pass it on.”

But from what I understand, the culturization of young Jewish children is pretty much the same for Reform and Orthodox as far as teaching the young about the prejudice and historical attacks that we can expect as the flip side of being “the chosen people.” Even the Zionists I’ve met are mostly inflamed against modern enemies and don’t dwell on the long litany of historical enemies.

sojo
 
A poster wants examples of people being tortured by the Inquisition?
Jacob Petersen from Dunkirk, a sailor aged 20 who was examined by the tribunal of the Canaries in November 1597. He was stripped and bound and tortured by potro. See Kamen p. 191.
"On being given these he said first,‘Oh God!’ and then,‘There’s no mercy’: after the turns he was admonished, and he said,‘I don’t know what to say, oh dear God1’ Then three more turns of the cord were ordered to be given, and after two of them he said,‘Oh God, oh God, there’s no mercy, oh God, help me, help me1’
In 1607, at Valencia, a girl of 13 was tortured. (p. 190, Kamen). A secretary noted every word of a woman accused in 1568 of not eating pork:“She was ordered to be placed on the potro. She said, ‘Senores, when will you not tell me what I have to say? Senor, put me on the ground – have I not said that I did it all ? ‘ She was told to talk. She said ‘I don’t remember – take me away – I did what the witnesses say.’ She was told to tell in detail what the witnesses said. She said, ‘Senor, as I have told you, I do not know for certain. I have said that I did all that the witnesses say. Senores, release me, for I do not remember.’ She was told to talk. She said, ‘Senores, it does not help me to say that I did it and I have admitted that what I have done has brought me to this suffering – Senor, you know the truth – Senores, for God’s sake have mercy on me. Oh Senor, take these things from my arms – Senor release me, they are killing me.’….’I did it – for God’s sake let me go.”
And he wants examples of people being handed over to the civil authorities to be burned at the stake?
Joan of Arc. And her trial at the inquistion was also determined to be inhumane and unfair by the Vatican itself.
This was a most cruel and inhumane and unfair attempt at justice. the methods were barbaric.
You obviously get off on this stuff, but as I pointed out in the post above, your accusations about innocents are absurd.
It is incredible that people are trying to justify these methods and punishments today.
It is totally incredible that you persist in accusing Catholics of trying to justify torture and execution of innocents, when no-one here has remotelyt suggested either.
I’m finished with continually refuting your groundless allegations, obviously you don’t care whether they’re true or not, you just want to beat up Catholics, so I see no point in continuing.
 
It is totally incredible that you persist in accusing Catholics of trying to justify torture and execution of innocents, when no-one here has remotelyt suggested either.
You asked for the examples, and I gave them in response to your request.
Torture was justified by the papal bull ad extirpandam. "Ad exstirpanda is the incipit designating a papal bull issued on May 15, 1252, by Pope Innocent IV, which was confirmed by Pope Alexander IV on November 30, 1259, and by Pope Clement IV on November 3, 1265. It explicitly authorized the use of torture for eliciting confessions from heretics during the Inquisition, although it also limited its uses. Innocent IV reason in his bull that as heretics are “murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, … are to be coerced—as are thieves and bandits—into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb.” " see
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_exstirpanda
Was the Inquisition either fair or humane? Pope Sixtus IV didn’t think so. In fact he said it was disgusting. The tortures, the barbarity, the cruel treatment of saints such as Joan of Arc, all indicate that Pope Sixtus IV was correct when he indicated that the methods of the Inquisition were disgusting. It is truly incredible that people today are attempting to say that the methods of the Inqusition which included horrific and terrible torture and sentencing innocent people such as St. Joan of Arc to be burned alive at the stake can in any way be described as fair and humane. It is truly a serious misuse of the terms fair and humane.
 
Even the Zionists I’ve met are mostly inflamed against modern enemies and don’t dwell on the long litany of historical enemies.

sojo
Some of the alleged historical enemies of the Jewish people in the remote past have become the best friends of Israel today. For example, the Evangelical Christians.
Still though, i think that the first Crusade did cause harm to the Jews (and Muslims and eastern christians as well). And the Inquisition, although it focused in on Catholics, could affect Jews who had been recently baptised.
 
The best advice I could give you is … well… .get good advice 😃
You’ll find it on these forums if you search or you could go to a great Catholic apologetic website such as www.NewAdvent.org, socrates58.blogspot.com/ , www.catholicapologetics.info , www.bringyou.to/apologetics/ , iamonetruth.com/index_of_catholic_church_sub.htm , biblechristiansociety.com/ etc etc they are the best places to get info on any of the topics you mentioned

Also speaking of Crusades, there is a new Crusade going on as we speak! (its an online Crusade btw 😛 )
Anyone interested in joining please click on the link below or give me a PM
All you need is to have a basic knowledge of Catholicism and a willingness to share that with others and to help those who are in error.
Pray about it and pray for our evangelizing.

The Catholic Crusade of Jesus Christ
 
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