crusades

[Jayda]

The interesting question has been warmly discussed, whether the Inquisition of Spain was a papal institution or an institution of the state, and the attempt has been made to lift the responsibility for its organization and administration from the supreme pontiff. The answer is, that it was predominantly an ecclesiastical institution, created by the authority of Sixtus IV. and continuously supported by pontifical sanction. On the other hand, its establishment was sought after by Ferdinand and Isabella, and its operations, after the papal authorization had been secured, was under the control of the Spanish sovereign. So far as we know, the popes never uttered a word in protest against the inhuman measures which were practised by the Spanish tribunals. Their only dissent arose from the persistence with which Ferdinand kept the administrative agency in his own hands and refused to allow any interference with his disposition of the sequestrated estates.961
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc6.ii.viii.iv.html

hola,

but this argument that the Pope said nothing is unsubstantiated… we’ve been discussing the Pope’s condemnation of inquisition practices for the last two pages, how then could you say the Pope “never uttered a word in protest against the inhuman measures which were practised by the Spanish tribunals.” furthermore in his own brief the Holy Father said that he had taken those condemned by the inquisition into his protection at the Holy See… is this not action?

also “predominently an ecclesiastic body,” seems to be something you have taken out of context. that quote is clearly talking about the inquisitions foundations which were had to be ecclesiastic since nobody can create an inquisition but the Pope. the article says what the Pope had in mind when he authorized and inquisition:

Agreeing with the papal Inquisition established by Innocent III. in its ultimate aim, the eradication of heresy, it differed from that earlier institution by being under the direction of a tribunal appointed by the Spanish sovereign, immediately amenable to him and acting independently of the bishops. The papal Inquisition was controlled by the Apostolic see, which appointed agents to carry its rules into effect and whose agency was to a certain extent subject to the assent of the bishops.

but after the foundation of the inquisition your article goes on to say:

On the other hand, its establishment was sought after by Ferdinand and Isabella, and its operations, after the papal authorization had been secured, was under the control of the Spanish sovereign

obviously the Pope meant a true inquisition when he created it, but when the Spanish authorities took over it became something much different, which is why he was angered by their practices and demanded they comply with Church rules.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Jayda]

I didn’t go back and read the text of the number 2. Perhaps I got it wrong. If that’s all the papal. bull did, then we’re talking a power/politics issue and not a moral one, despite the language.

hola,

how can you say despite the language? the language is what records the Holy Fathers desires… which were written very plainly that he demanded the inquisitors act like inquisitors and not murderers. if we disregard the language then it allows you to say bad things happened with no objections… but that is historically inaccurate and only serves to perpetuate this unfair accusation against the Church. you seem to be resistant to the idea the Church does not desire to harm people… this is an important thing to the Church, just like teaching orthodoxy is.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Valke2]

hola,

how can you say despite the language? the language is what records the Holy Fathers desires… which were written very plainly that he demanded the inquisitors act like inquisitors and not murderers. if we disregard the language then it allows you to say bad things happened with no objections… but that is historically inaccurate and only serves to perpetuate this unfair accusation against the Church. you seem to be resistant to the idea the Church does not desire to harm people… this is an important thing to the Church, just like teaching orthodoxy is.

que Dios te bendiga

Because the language says nothing about conversos or Jews, and the Church expanded, not contracted the INquisitin after making such langague.

 

[Jayda]

Because the language says nothing about conversos or Jews, and the Church expanded, not contracted the INquisitin after making such langague.

hola,

actually the article I posted before said that it went on to mention conversos… remember? (post 45… in the quotes) and what do conversos have to do with this… it is a blanket condemnation of their treatment of people brought in for questions, you said there was no condemnation… there is… just because it is not specifically written for a specific ethnic minority does not make it less valid.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Valke2]

hola,

actually the article I posted before said that it went on to mention conversos… remember? and what do conversos have to do with this… it is a blanket condemnation of their treatment of people brought in for questions, you said there was no condemnation… there is… just because it is not specifically written for a specific ethnic minority does not make it less valid.

que Dios te bendiga

Let’s not be niave. Conversos were a major, if not THE major target of the Inquisition.

 

[Jayda]

Let’s not be niave. Conversos were a major, if not THE major target of the Inquisition.

hola,

and let’s not be ethnocentric, “a major target” is more appropriate, moorish muslims and protestants died in near equal numbers. do not try to change the character of the inquisition as to say only jews matter or were the most important group of people who died. the issue for the spaniards was primarily about ethnicity, and trying to create an ethnically monotone country… which meant displacing or killing moors, mixed people and also jews, but not exclusively jews.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Valke2]

hola,

and let’s not be ethnocentric, “a major target” is more appropriate, moorish muslims and protestants died in near equal numbers. do not try to change the character of the inquisition as to say only jews matter or were the most important group of people who died. the issue for the spaniards was primarily about ethnicity, and trying to create an ethnically monotone country… which meant displacing or killing moors, mixed people and also jews, but not exclusively jews.

que Dios te bendiga

the character of the inquistion changed over time. But it was initially targeted almost exclusively against conversos muslims. Protestants came later.

 

[Jayda]

the character of the inquistion changed over time. But it was initially targeted almost exclusively against conversos muslims. Protestants came later.

si, so you agree with me that jewish people represented only one group among many who were significantly targeted… why then does a condemnation only count if the Holy Father condemns violence against jews seperately and specially from all the other groups significantly affected?

 

[Valke2]

si, so you agree with me that jewish people represented only one group among many who were significantly targeted… why then does a condemnation only count if the Holy Father condemns violence against jews seperately and specially from all the other groups significantly affected?

No. I’d agree that they were not the only group. But they were the main reason for the inquistion, they were targeted much, much more heavily than other heretics, the majority of burnings/executions were against conversos.

 

[Valke2]

as Telushkin (author) says, the Spanish Inquistion was a preverse attempt to save people’s souls by torturing their bodies.

Although it was directed against all heretics, no one seiously disputes that the target was conversos much more often than any other. Nor is there much credible dispute over the fact that most conversos had converted under duress, either to save their lives or to save their ability to earn a living.

All of the Inquisitors were priests. When a converso was brought before the priests, if he or she confessed and named names, they got off lightly. Usually some sort of public humiliation. If convicted of secretly being a Jew, and then confessed, they got an easy execution This meant being strangled before being burned…

Failing to confess resulted in repeated torture: the rack. Water forced down their throats, other tortures. These actions were carried out by priests, who claimed to be motivated by love of the people they were torturing.

Those Jews would didn’t confess publiclly were burned at the stake.

The inquistion also dug up the bones of dead Conversos it suspected of being secret Jews and burned their bones.

Given all this, I am not suprised at the attempt to distance the Church from the Inquistion. But I am shocked when people who bring these issues up are accused of engaging in revisionist history.

(Sources for the above: Cecil Roth, "The Spanish Inquistion, Max Margolis, A History of Jewish People).

 

[Valke2]

Balthazer Loez was a “Secret Jew” condemed to be burned at the stake in June 1654. His confessor persuaded him at the last moment to avoid the worst tortures by verbally declaring that Christianity was true. Lopez did so, whereupon another priest told him to rejoice, as his repentence meant that he would now enter Paradise. As the hangman prepared to strangle him, the priest asked Lopez if he was truly repentant.

“Fahter,” he said, “do you think that this is a time to joke?”

 

[Jayda]

hola,

but you still have not said anything responding to the fact the Pope singularly discussed conversos in his brief (i pointed this out twice now, with a source). i feel like many of your questions have been answered now but you are not actually reading my answers…

so i think now is a good time to wrap this up… but i just wanted to add some final thoughts.

the above story about the boy and the father is very sad but it only serves to make an emotional appeal where facts proove otherwise.

with Church officials not in control and spanish authorities not doing what the Pope ordered when he gave them the inquisition… it is simply not the Church. by ignoring this and ignoring the fact that jews were a significant, but hardly single target in the inquisition you are twisting history to make this a Vatican instigated pogrom… which is simply not true.

historic hit jobs like this false picture of the inquision (which historians have backed away from) persist in popular culture because there is a desire to believe bad things about Catholicism. that is why people continue to conjure up these fantastic historic revisions which perpetuate these stereotypes and lies that the Church is a sinister and secretive organization with dark political agendas and darker tools to realize them. whether it is stories of evil albinos mutilating themselves and committing assasinations for Cardinals, or inquisitors following strict instructions from Rome to kill all the Jews, these stories teach a consistent and important message:

anti Catholicism is the last acceptable form of prejudice.

muchas gracias,
que Dios te bendiga

 

[Valke2]

hola,

but you still have not said anything responding to the fact the Pope singularly discussed conversos in his brief (i pointed this out twice now, with a source). i feel like many of your questions have been answered now but you are not actually reading my answers…

so i think now is a good time to wrap this up… but i just wanted to add some final thoughts.

the above story about the boy and the father is very sad but it only serves to make an emotional appeal where facts proove otherwise.

with Church officials not in control and spanish authorities not doing what the Pope ordered when he gave them the inquisition… it is simply not the Church. by ignoring this and ignoring the fact that jews were a significant, but hardly single target in the inquisition you are twisting history to make this a Vatican instigated pogrom… which is simply not true.

historic hit jobs like this false picture of the inquision (which historians have backed away from) persist in popular culture because there is a desire to believe bad things about Catholicism. that is why people continue to conjure up these fantastic historic revisions which perpetuate these stereotypes and lies that the Church is a sinister and secretive organization with dark political agendas and darker tools to realize them. whether it is stories of evil albinos mutilating themselves and committing assasinations for Cardinals, or inquisitors following strict instructions from Rome to kill all the Jews, these stories teach a consistent and important message:

anti Catholicism is the last acceptable form of prejudice.

muchas gracias,
que Dios te bendiga

I don’t believe I’ve stated anything that historians are backing away from. I didn’t see any papal decree regarding conversos cited in your post. I apologize if I missed this and I’ll go back and re-read. I’m not sure what questions you think I’m asking. I understand you are disagreeing with my view of the Spanish Inquistion. .

 

[Valke2]

I saw your statemnet that the bull challenged treatment of conversos, but I didn’t see a citation to an article or the bull.

 

[Montalban]

The Inquisition was begun against the Cathar sects of southern France (known there as Albigensians). They were not Catholic, but deemed to be Christian heretics. The idea that the Inquistion was only used against Catholics is thus a hazy point when one realises this about the Cathars

 

[Crusader4Jesus]

Excellent work everyone in defending the holy Faith,
if you are interested in doing more of this, then consider being a Crusader on the new online Catholic Crusade of Jesus Christ, we are an evangelizing group that spreads the Gospel and refutes the errors of those against the Church. All you need is a basic knowledge of the faith and a willingness to share it.
Click on the link in my signature for more details or pm me.
Pray about it and for our mission.
God bless you,
in Christ.

crossdaily.com/img/cards/scriptures/salvation/salvation06tn.gif

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Crusader4Jesus,

I’m not really interested in being a “crusader”, but thank you for the offer.