Cry Room Question

[Anthony_s_Mom]

Rather than a cry room, I’d rather hear a few childish outbursts. If nothing else, it’s the sound of life.

Also don’t let any cross “look” discourage you. And if anyone makes any remarks, kindly remind them that your child is the future of our Church.

I would take your daughter into the Mass and get her (and everyone else) used to the idea. Most children can be taught to sit through a Mass

.

It is distracting and can be rude for parents to keep their very vocal children in Mass. My son is 1 year on Saturday and he’s usually very happy during mass, and for him that means that he is also very talkative. He’s too young to teach to whisper and he’s also too young to really clearly draw a distinction between when it’s OK to jibberjabber and when it isn’t - so I’m not going to discipline him for talking.
I leave and walk the vestibule or, very rarely, go to the cryroom.

As to all the suggestion to “get him used to Mass” - sure, when he’s older. 2 or 3 is when it will begin to do any good, in the meantime all you are doing is getting him/her used to “talking” loudly during Mass and distracting everyone around you.

As to distracting other people…Your best case scenerio is that everyone around you is smiling inside and thinking, “Cute kid, I remember when mine were that young.” Your worst case scenerio is that everyone around you is thinking, “What a rude woman. Why doesn’t she take that kid out of here?” EITHER WAY, you are allowing your dear child to be a distraction from the Mass. Some distractions are just going to happen but we should never indulge them or just shrug and say, “well, that’s life” - we should attempt to keep the Mass a place of quiet reverence.

As to the idea that you are going to “miss so much” by leaving mass for the cry room or vestibule…for heaven sake! As if you were going to have some ultra-focused and meditative experience of the Mass with a one-year old sitting on your lap and jibberjabbering. Go to the vestibule when necessary, make sure that you are paying attention at the consecration, receive the Eucharist and you will have received what God wanted you to receive.

 

[johnnykins]

I really can’t disagree more. The Mass is not a show. Its meaning, efficacy and nature is completely independent of of any considerations of that nature. It’s not rude to keep him there - a child has every right to be there as any other member of the Church. That the nature of a child is to be noisy is irrelevant. That a Cry Roomm may be provided for those who disagree - well, I think it’s another diminution in both the understanding of the Mass and the acceptance of the humanity of Children. They don’t belong at a play, opera, concernt, etc. They do belong at Mass, IMHO

 

[netmilsmom]

johnnykins:

I really can’t disagree more. The Mass is not a show. Its meaning, efficacy and nature is completely independent of of any considerations of that nature. It’s not rude to keep him there - a child has every right to be there as any other member of the Church. That the nature of a child is to be noisy is irrelevant. That a Cry Roomm may be provided for those who disagree - well, I think it’s another diminution in both the understanding of the Mass and the acceptance of the humanity of Children. They don’t belong at a play, opera, concernt, etc. They do belong at Mass, IMHO

Please understand that children need activities that are age appropriate. A babbling toddler is darling at a party, but not at a mass. Cry Rooms are a blessing to parents.
To say that a toddler belongs at mass is unfair to the toddler. There is a time to teach them the wonder of it all. When they can understand. I had a happy talkative toddler myself. We didn’t have a cry room. It was very hard.

 

[johnnykins]

Again, I disagree - the Cry Room is for the parents - not the child. As I say, as a member of the Church the child has a right to be at Mass. The child should be at Mass. A Cry Room is an unfortunate compromise to assuage the concerns of the parents and certain members of the congregation that equate Mass with some sort of human endeavor to which it is inappropriate to bring children.

 

[spiritblows]

LOL, a “right to be at Mass”? I’ll bet that most little ones would surrender these rights in a heartbeat.

 

[johnnykins]

Because they don’t understand - sure. Look, the readings, homily, etc., as important as they are, are all secondary. The sacrificial re-presentation of calvary where God comes into our midst is the central mystery of the Mass. The entire community - from children to the elderly - are called to participate and be present as a community for that. The community includes children - even the smallest - as an integral part who HAVE A RIGHT to be present at this community celebration and manifestation of the Almighty. I’ve been to Masses where the readings were mumbled, unhearable, garbled, in another language I did not understand - and got nothing ouit of it. I’ve heard homilies and sermons that were banal, heretical, stupid and/or unintelligible - and got nothing out of it. Yes the readings and the homilies are important - and usually speak to us as a proclamation of the word of God. BUT, they are not the central act of the Mass. When the music is lousy, when illicit innovations are introduced, when all manner of improper activity is at work - if the consecration is valid - we have attended Mass. Neither our age not capabilities nor mental state is of any relevance - GOD has become present on the altar and affects each of us!! Yes, a child has a right to that. Would you put the psychotic, dirty, smelly homeless man with Tourette’s Syndrome in a Cry Room??? The Mass is not about our participation as such (though the Church calls us to participate as we can). The Mass is about God’s eneffable love for us - whatever our human condition. CHILDREN HAVE A RiGHT TO BE THERE!! As adults we have an obligation to bring them and treat them as the human beings they are. It may be difficult - but so be it. WE are losing our understanding of the Mass when we exclude human beings from Mass simply because they are incovenient or disruptive due to no fault of their own. Mass is for them, too. Actually, I think sometimes maybe this is why God allows all the weird innovations - to make us all focus on what’s really happening.

 

[johnnykins]

The last post lost the start of my reply. Sorry. I think the gist came through pretty well, though.

 

[spiritblows]

Dear Johnny,
You seem a little riled up, okay? You can chill out, I was just kidding, okay? LOL, it’s just that most wee ones don’t like Mass, you know what I mean? Of course they can be there, they really don’t bother me at all, but they just don’t seem to like Mass and it’s hard on their parents sometimes.

Gee…

 

[Anthony_s_Mom]

johnnykins:

BUT, they are not the central act of the Mass. When the music is lousy, when illicit innovations are introduced, when all manner of improper activity is at work - if the consecration is valid - we have attended Mass.

AND you have attended mass when you have been sitting in the cry room or the vestibule. No one is saying that you shouldn’t go to Mass, and be present for the great sacrifice - just that you shouldn’t let your child be a distraction from it - just as you don’t want to have illicit practices and bad music and lousy homilies to distract from it.
We need to respect the beauty and central place that the Mass has in our Catholic life by keeping our kids as involved in it as possible. My babbling toddler is not only not participating (anymore then he would be participating in a ku klux klan meeting if I were to take him) and on top of that he is making it harder for other people to “fully, actively and conciously participate” in the sacrifice.
If you insist that his babbling is his “particular way” of participating then I assure you, he can do that just as well from the vestibule or cry room as he can from the front row.
Further more, using your reasoning that children should be able to “participate” as children (babbling, climbing on pews, etc.) then where would you draw the line? Is running up and down the aisle and up onto the sanctuary and screaching at the top of his lungs too far? If you take away the line of “making a loud enough noise to be distracting” then there really is no standard that makes sense.
Keep the dear noisy ones out of the main worship space.

 

[system]

Anthony's Mom:

AND you have attended mass when you have been sitting in the cry room or the vestibule. No one is saying that you shouldn’t go to Mass, and be present for the great sacrifice - just that you shouldn’t let your child be a distraction from it - just as you don’t want to have illicit practices and bad music and lousy homilies to distract from it.
We need to respect the beauty and central place that the Mass has in our Catholic life by keeping our kids as involved in it as possible. My babbling toddler is not only not participating (anymore then he would be participating in a ku klux klan meeting if I were to take him) and on top of that he is making it harder for other people to “fully, actively and conciously participate” in the sacrifice.
If you insist that his babbling is his “particular way” of participating then I assure you, he can do that just as well from the vestibule or cry room as he can from the front row.
Further more, using your reasoning that children should be able to “participate” as children (babbling, climbing on pews, etc.) then where would you draw the line? Is running up and down the aisle and up onto the sanctuary and screaching at the top of his lungs too far? If you take away the line of “making a loud enough noise to be distracting” then there really is no standard that makes sense.
Keep the dear noisy ones out of the main worship space.

Having a child in Mass is going to be in a completely different realm than in a klu-klux-klan meeting. They are in the presence of God. Yes, they are still in the presence of God in the vestibule or the cry room, but some parrishes do not have these things. Also, if you go in the cry room, there are many people who choose to sit in there that do not even have children. Or they are extremely irreverent. I can’t stand to be in the cry room. Some who sit in there seem to think this is a great opportunity to give their children food, not kneel during the consecration and other things that I find incredibly distracting. Even more than a child who is making happy sounds.

 

[Anthony_s_Mom]

vicia3:

Having a child in Mass is going to be in a completely different realm than in a klu-klux-klan meeting. They are in the presence of God. Yes, they are still in the presence of God in the vestibule or the cry room, but some parrishes do not have these things. Also, if you go in the cry room, there are many people who choose to sit in there that do not even have children. Or they are extremely irreverent.

Of COURSE Mass is different then a ku klux klan meeting LOL! That’s part of my point - I was saying that it’s ridiculous to assert that a child’s babbling and making noise is somehow "their way " of participating in a Mass. The only way they participate is by being present, which can be done just as well from a cryroom or vestibule.
vicia3:

I can’t stand to be in the cry room. Some who sit in there seem to think this is a great opportunity to give their children food, not kneel during the consecration and other things that I find incredibly distracting.

Giving a toddler food is totally appropriate during Mass, especially if it assists in keeping them quiet and less distracting. As to not kneeling, we are talking about 1 year olds here. C’mon…maybe by age 2 and certainly by 3 but these are kids that were considered “babys” just weeks ago. Cry rooms should not be used as a place for parents to neglect proper instruction and discipline of their children but as a tool
If you find cry rooms distracting just imagine what the worship space would look like if all of those parents and kids were out there!

Even more than a child who is making happy sounds.

And those kids who aren’t making such happy sounds?

 

[netmilsmom]

Anthony's Mom:

And those kids who aren’t making such happy sounds?

Anthony has a great and considerate mom. He will turn out to be a wonderful Catholic!

Truly, I am with you on this. Children don’t appreciate what they don’t know. Start in the cry room and give them time to be kids while not disturbing others.

Would those of you are into having children in the Main please tell us if you have children?

 

[johnnykins]

Gee, why don’t we just eliminate all parrishes and just have one Mass broadcast throughout the world? Then no one needs to be bothered by anyone else? Even better have 2 or 3 so that those who like traditional services can have one; those who like modern ones another, etc. Why come together in person at all? See it and hear it better all on TV!

The Cry Room is an unfortuneate compromise that diminshes the belief in the Real Presence and appreciation for the humanity of the child - see my prior post. And like almost all compromises in religion - it is a bad compromise. The comments in the first paragraph above are the natural end of Cry Rooms. If you really believe God becomes present then separating or segregating children is unconscionable. A fish bowl is not needed or desireable. Let the child be there and let the adults be adults and deal with it. Sure children don’t appreciate it - SO WHAT!! God is there and He calls us to congregate worship. The complaint by those who want a Cry Room is that they are incovenienced - as parents, as worshipers, etc. Christ becomes present whether they are inconvenienced on not. That is the great mystery of the Eucharist. God is there for us - whether we are children, psychotic, an unbeliever or non compos mentis. A Cry Room simply adds an unnecessary barrier to placate our own selfish desires. Better for us to focus on the Real Presence and maybe then we would want our children there with us.

30-40 years ago Catholic churches did not have Cry Rooms. I believe they are another attempt to make the Mass more accessible that leads exactly in the wrong way. It leads to emphasizing the homily and the show over the incredible sacrifice that takes place. The Cry Room is all a part and parcel of the failures of the past 40 years - whatever good intentions or hopes inspired them.

 

[system]

Anthony's Mom:

Of COURSE Mass is different then a ku klux klan meeting LOL! That’s part of my point - I was saying that it’s ridiculous to assert that a child’s babbling and making noise is somehow "their way " of participating in a Mass. The only way they participate is by being present, which can be done just as well from a cryroom or vestibule.

Giving a toddler food is totally appropriate during Mass, especially if it assists in keeping them quiet and less distracting. As to not kneeling, we are talking about 1 year olds here. C’mon…maybe by age 2 and certainly by 3 but these are kids that were considered “babys” just weeks ago. Cry rooms should not be used as a place for parents to neglect proper instruction and discipline of their children but as a tool
If you find cry rooms distracting just imagine what the worship space would look like if all of those parents and kids were out there!

And those kids who aren’t making such happy sounds?

Bottles are ok, but giving a toddler food in the church is asking to make a mess. It will also teach them that church is the place to eat food. I was not talking about toddlers kneeling, I was talking about the adults. I am not unreasonable.

 

[system]

:clapping:

johnnykins:

Gee, why don’t we just eliminate all parrishes and just have one Mass broadcast throughout the world? Then no one needs to be bothered by anyone else? Even better have 2 or 3 so that those who like traditional services can have one; those who like modern ones another, etc. Why come together in person at all? See it and hear it better all on TV!

The Cry Room is an unfortuneate compromise that diminshes the belief in the Real Presence and appreciation for the humanity of the child - see my prior post. And like almost all compromises in religion - it is a bad compromise. The comments in the first paragraph above are the natural end of Cry Rooms. If you really believe God becomes present then separating or segregating children is unconscionable. A fish bowl is not needed or desireable. Let the child be there and let the adults be adults and deal with it. Sure children don’t appreciate it - SO WHAT!! God is there and He calls us to congregate worship. The complaint by those who want a Cry Room is that they are incovenienced - as parents, as worshipers, etc. Christ becomes present whether they are inconvenienced on not. That is the great mystery of the Eucharist. God is there for us - whether we are children, psychotic, an unbeliever or non compos mentis. A Cry Room simply adds an unnecessary barrier to placate our own selfish desires. Better for us to focus on the Real Presence and maybe then we would want our children there with us.

30-40 years ago Catholic churches did not have Cry Rooms. I believe they are another attempt to make the Mass more accessible that leads exactly in the wrong way. It leads to emphasizing the homily and the show over the incredible sacrifice that takes place. The Cry Room is all a part and parcel of the failures of the past 40 years - whatever good intentions or hopes inspired them.

:clapping: :bowdown2: :bowdown:

 

[johnnykins]

Let me try this another way. If Jesus appeared on your street in a human body - beard, hair, robe and all - would you take your infant out to see Him? Of course you would. If the child started to cry would you take him in the house and look out a window? I seriously doubt it. If you believe in the Real Presence why do you want to take your child into another room? Do you really believe that Jesus is present on the altar?

As I say, Cry Rooms diminish belief in the Real Presence.

 

[johnnykins]

Netmil - you asked if I have children - yes 3 (now 12, 14, 17). My wife has sung in the choir forever. I’m the one who has had them in the sanctuary. Have I always handled it well? No! But I do truly believe they belong in the sanctuary even as babies. They are members of the congregation. In the post above, I would take them out to see Jesus even if they were infants and could not appreciate Him. Even if He said zip to them. I also assume it would be a good thing for them. The same applies to Mass.

 

[system]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Would those of you are into having children in the Main please tell us if you have children?

I stay out in the main part and I have three children. One is 8, one is 6 and the other is 15 months.

 

[genealogist]

Johnnykins, Your bio says you are Catholic. Do you mind if I ask have you always been Catholic? The reason I ask is that you call the sitting area for the people the sanctuary which is correct at my wife’s Presbyterian church but in the Catholic churches the sanctuary is the area around the altar and formerly the tabernacle. I don’t know what we call the “pews” but the priest is in the sanctuary during Mass and we are not. Also Catholics would usually say they members of the Church or parish but not the congregation. Not a big deal but something this Catholic husband of a non-Catholic wife has picked up over the last twelve years.

 

[netmilsmom]

johnnykins:

30-40 years ago Catholic churches did not have Cry Rooms. I believe they are another attempt to make the Mass more accessible that leads exactly in the wrong way. It leads to emphasizing the homily and the show over the incredible sacrifice that takes place. The Cry Room is all a part and parcel of the failures of the past 40 years - whatever good intentions or hopes inspired them.

I grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland. My home church was 100 years old in 1967. It had a cry room as did all the churches in my area.

I find that cry rooms were done away with in the modern churches.
Do you have children?