Ctreated out of love

[zro_x]

If god created us out of pure love, because he knew we would enjoy existence, why hasn’t he created an infinite number of angels and/ or people?

any theories would be great!

 

[sophion]

If god created us out of pure love, because he knew we would enjoy existence, why hasn’t he created an infinite number of angels and/ or people?

any theories would be great!

who said he didnt? theres a theory that theres an infinite number of universes out there.

 

[Della]

We have no idea how many angels were created–perhaps as many as there are stars in the heavens, perhaps the number is nearly infinite, we really can’t know that at this time on our lives.

As for humans, well God left that up to us when he told Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and mulitiply”.

 

[zro_x]

who said he didnt? theres a theory that theres an infinite number of universes out there.

interesting theory, but I think I remember reading something Stephen Hawking wrote that showed that the number of possible universes was somewhere around a googol to the 5th power. Big, but not infinite.

 

[zro_x]

We have no idea how many angels were created–perhaps as many as there are stars in the heavens, perhaps the number is nearly infinite, we really can’t know that at this time on our lives.

As for humans, well God left that up to us when he told Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and mulitiply”.

No matter how much we multiply, we will never reach an infinite number of people in a finite time.

There is no such thing as “nearly infinite”, but the idea that god created an infinite number of angels is an intrigueing one. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[pig]

to give us life as he wished required a universe

 

[Regina_Love]

Well, if people continue to multiply as God commanded, generation after generation with out end…

 

[zro_x]

Well, if people continue to multiply as God commanded, generation after generation with out end…

but it will end! eventually the judgement day will come.

 

[Della]

No matter how much we multiply, we will never reach an infinite number of people in a finite time.

There is no such thing as “nearly infinite”, but the idea that god created an infinite number of angels is an intrigueing one. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut!

Of course, the angels are not limited by time, as we are. They dwell within eternity. It seems God created them all at the same time, in varying ranks, it was then that they decided to serve or not to serve since they were created with free will, but perhaps I digress for this thread?

 

[Qoeleth]

If god created us out of pure love, because he knew we would enjoy existence, why hasn’t he created an infinite number of angels and/ or people?

any theories would be great!

But who really enjoys existence? Who would not prefer to spend a night sleeping (in comparitive non-existence), than awake (‘enjoying’ existence)?

Here is a theory: our self-will (the original sin) caused us to fall out of peaceful non-existence (the Garden of Eden) into existence. God calls us to renounce self and the world, and thereby return to the blessed realm of non-existence.

In fact, as many beings as there may currently be, there are a greater number of potential beings who God has spared the sufferings of existence.

This is probably kind of unorthodox- but it’s a theory…maybe not a good one…

 

[zro_x]

But who really enjoys existence? Who would not prefer to spend a night sleeping (in comparitive non-existence), than awake (‘enjoying’ existence)?

I would. at least some of the time.

Here is a theory: our self-will (the original sin) caused us to fall out of peaceful non-existence (the Garden of Eden) into existence. God calls us to renounce self and the world, and thereby return to the blessed realm of non-existence.

In fact, as many beings as there may currently be, there are a greater number of potential beings who God has spared the sufferings of existence.

This is probably kind of unorthodox- but it’s a theory…maybe not a good one…

first of all, that means every angel sinned by somehow self-willing themselves into existence, not just the ones that eventually turned away from god.

secondly, looking at non-existence as something nuetral is an… interesting perspective. Your values seem like a number line where evil and unhappiness are the negative numbers, non-existence is at zero, and happiness and goodness are positive numbers. perhaps you take the even more radical approach that non-existence is the ultimate good?

Thank you for your challenging perspectives. I originally thought that the reason why god lets people in hell rather than anihilate them was that existence, even existence in hell, is better than non-existence.

 

[Qoeleth]

I would. at least some of the time.

first of all, that means every angel sinned by somehow self-willing themselves into existence, not just the ones that eventually turned away from god.

secondly, looking at non-existence as something nuetral is an… interesting perspective. Your values seem like a number line where evil and unhappiness are the negative numbers, non-existence is at zero, and happiness and goodness are positive numbers. perhaps you take the even more radical approach that non-existence is the ultimate good?

Thank you for your challenging perspectives. I originally thought that the reason why god lets people in hell rather than anihilate them was that existence, even existence in hell, is better than non-existence.

Well, non-existence seems like actually something desirable. To demonstrate this, here is an exercise. Think about when you are least aware of your existence (when asleep, when ‘forgetting yourself’ in music or something else). These are actually the moments of greatest joy. But then, think about when you are MOST aware of existing- when you body is wracked in pain, a headache, awkardly self-conscious. These are the times of greatest suffering. You really are most aware that your big toe exists only when it hurts.

So, ‘existence’ (as we experience it) in itself is maybe not a blessing. But, our current ‘existence’ is different from God’s existence…

 

[Della]

Well, non-existence seems like actually something desirable. To demonstrate this, here is an exercise. Think about when you are least aware of your existence (when asleep, when ‘forgetting yourself’ in music or something else). These are actually the moments of greatest joy. But then, think about when you are MOST aware of existing- when you body is wracked in pain, a headache, awkardly self-conscious. These are the times of greatest suffering. You really are most aware that your big toe exists only when it hurts.

So, ‘existence’ (as we experience it) in itself is maybe not a blessing. But, our current ‘existence’ is different from God’s existence…

Negative attention to oneself is not bliss–it’s simply nothing. God didn’t create us so we could be nothings wishing to be nothings. Where is the joy in that?

We forget ourselves the most and are the happiest, consciously so, when we lose ourselves in God and in service to others. Who can be vain and self-important when rapt in prayer or concentrating on serving the needs of others?

This is one reason why we are exhorted to pray and to serve one another–so we can know the joy being what God wants us to be and of doing what God wants us to do.

 

[zro_x]

Negative attention to oneself is not bliss–it’s simply nothing. God didn’t create us so we could be nothings wishing to be nothings. Where is the joy in that?

We forget ourselves the most and are the happiest, consciously so, when we lose ourselves in God and in service to others. Who can be vain and self-important when rapt in prayer or concentrating on serving the needs of others?

This is one reason why we are exhorted to pray and to serve one another–so we can know the joy being what God wants us to be and of doing what God wants us to do.

well said. Qoeleth, the times you metioned are times that we are not focussed on our own existence, rather than times that we are closest to non-existence. without existence, we wouldn’t be able to enjoy sleep or music.

 

[Qoeleth]

well said. Qoeleth, the times you metioned are times that we are not focussed on our own existence, rather than times that we are closest to non-existence. without existence, we wouldn’t be able to enjoy sleep or music.

Non-existence is difficult to imagine. But, were we happy before we are concieved? Maybe not, but at least we were not unhappy. Remember, “in sin we were conceived.” We can say that, at least, without existence we would be at total peace. It is in being born that all our troubles start.

For many people, myself included, the goal and possibility of positive happiness seems to disappear as the years go by, like belief in Santa Claus, or true love. Instead, it is replaced with a humbler and simpler vision of Paradise- being free of unhappiness, being given eternal rest in total oblivion both of good and of bad, when one’s work is done. And this is actually close to what the Bible promises- “no more tears, no more death, no more mourning.” Non-existence satisfies all those things.

 

[zro_x]

Non-existence is difficult to imagine. But, were we happy before we are concieved? Maybe not, but at least we were not unhappy. Remember, “in sin we were conceived.” We can say that, at least, without existence we would be at total peace. It is in being born that all our troubles start.

For many people, myself included, the goal and possibility of positive happiness seems to disappear as the years go by, like belief in Santa Claus, or true love. Instead, it is replaced with a humbler and simpler vision of Paradise- being free of unhappiness, being given eternal rest in total oblivion both of good and of bad, when one’s work is done. And this is actually close to what the Bible promises- “no more tears, no more death, no more mourning.” Non-existence satisfies all those things.

you don’t experience any form of positive happinesss? the music you mentioned in one of your recent posts, as well as all forms of beauty, would be one source of positive happiness. The very ability to think and reason, I think, is a source for positive happiness. Physical goods can bring positive happiness as well, occasionally. Love and being loved(in the sense of wishing happiness on others) can bring positive happiness in its greatest estent. Heck, any time you want something, and that want is fulfilled, you experience positive happiness. You can’t seriously expect me to believe that you’ve never experienced it at all!

 

[vames]

We can say that, at least, without existence we would be at total peace.

I remember a recent homily about the pains of Purgatory, when I thought about my mother-in-law who died after a long, painful physical illness and most probably ended in Purgatory. Pain here, followed by even greater pain there and possibly even for a longer time, as tradition holds that souls can spend hundreds of years in Purgatory - this was an instance when I thought that non-existence after death would be better.

 

[davidv]

Non-existence is difficult to imagine. But, were we happy before we are concieved? Maybe not, but at least we were not unhappy. Remember, “in sin we were conceived.” We can say that, at least, without existence we would be at total peace. It is in being born that all our troubles start.

For many people, myself included, the goal and possibility of positive happiness seems to disappear as the years go by, like belief in Santa Claus, or true love. Instead, it is replaced with a humbler and simpler vision of Paradise- being free of unhappiness, being given eternal rest in total oblivion both of good and of bad, when one’s work is done. And this is actually close to what the Bible promises- “no more tears, no more death, no more mourning.” Non-existence satisfies all those things.

This attitude seems to be quite contrary to this:

But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,” (1Corinthians (RSV) 2)

And this:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1Peter (RSV) 1)

 

[zro_x]

I remember a recent homily about the pains of Purgatory, when I thought about my mother-in-law who died after a long, painful physical illness and most probably ended in Purgatory. Pain here, followed by even greater pain there and possibly even for a longer time, as tradition holds that souls can spend hundreds of years in Purgatory - this was an instance when I thought that non-existence after death would be better.

The neverending joy we recieve in heaven far outweighs the pain on earth and purgatory.