Cult or Religion?

[Leela]

Hi all,

A Catholic in another thread just told a non-Catholic member of the forum that what he calls his religion is actually not a religion but is actually a cult. What is the difference other than a few hundred years?

Best,
Leela

 

[1holycatholic]

Hi all,

A Catholic in another thread just told a non-Catholic member of the forum that what he calls his religion is actually not a religion but is actually a cult. What is the difference other than a few hundred years?

Best,
Leela

Why is this in Philosophy?

 

[liquidpele]

Why is this in Philosophy?

I think it fits pretty well. For instance, many consider Mormons or JW’s as a cult, but where do you draw the line? What makes one belief a cult while another is considered a healthy religion? Philosophically speaking, how do you determine beliefs are reasonable (healthy) or not (cult) ?

 

[1holycatholic]

I think it fits pretty well. For instance, many consider Mormons or JW’s as a cult, but where do you draw the line? What makes one belief a cult while another is considered a healthy religion? Philosophically speaking, how do you determine beliefs are reasonable (healthy) or not (cult) ?

From the dictionary on my computer:
cult |kəlt|
noun
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object : the cult of St. Olaf.
• a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister : a network of Satan-worshiping cults.
…
philosophy |fəˈläsəfē|
noun ( pl. -phies)
the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, esp. when considered as an academic discipline.
…

 

[James_S_Saint]

I think the relevant difference is determined by how information is controlled.

A cult maintains itself by so restricting information flow that its devout beliefs cannot be challenged.

More originally, the word “cult” came from “occult” referring specifically to magic worship of one form or another. Magic requires hidden information.

 

[1holycatholic]

I think the relevant difference is determined by how information is controlled.

A cult maintains itself by so restricting information flow that its devout beliefs cannot be challenged.

More originally, the word “cult” came from “occult” referring specifically to magic worship of one form or another. Magic requires hidden information.

Etymology of the word cult.

 

[dianaiad]

I think the relevant difference is determined by how information is controlled.

A cult maintains itself by so restricting information flow that its devout beliefs cannot be challenged.

More originally, the word “cult” came from “occult” referring specifically to magic worship of one form or another. Magic requires hidden information.

Actually, the word ‘cult’ comes from the latin “cultis” or ‘worship.’ as well as the old French "colere (to attend to, cultivate, respect, etc.)

Whereas “occult” comes from the Latin "occultus,’ meaning 'secret, hidden from the understanding, hideen, concealed…past participle of occulere, meaning to cover up, hide or conceal.

Claiming that “cult” comes from “occult” is at best using a false cognate. The most one can say is that both words, way back in the Latin, share a common root word…rather like French and Italian share a common linguistic tie back to Latin, but French did not come from Italian, nor did Italian come from French.

It means: 1.Wordship: reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings.
2. A particular form or system of religious worship: esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies.

More recently, as has been noted, it means “a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practice regarded by others as strange or sinister.”

So…“cult” is, basically, an all inclusive pejorative; a subjective insult that has very little to do with the group being CALLED a cult, but a great deal to do with what others think about it.

When you think about it, though, a cult would be a small group of people who worshiped differently than the majority of the people around them…and whose beliefs are strange to that majority.

'course, that would make Catholics a cult in Utah…and Christianity a cult in Saudi Arabia. I think you can see the problem.

Basically, then, the word “cult” is simply, and only, an insult. Nobody has a definitive idea of what a “cult” is, except “you sound weird to me.”

Diana

 

[liquidpele]

Etymology of the word cult.

Your point is well taken… but I was using the general negative aspect of the word used by many to define beliefs they think are dangerous or ridiculous though.

 

[Rawb]

Basically, then, the word “cult” is simply, and only, an insult. Nobody has a definitive idea of what a “cult” is, except “you sound weird to me.”

I’ve heard it: a religion you are free to leave, a cult you risk physical harm in leaving. In a cult you are separated from your family and friends-no communication or physical contact, by the doctrines of that religion (so the religion teaches that you cannot talk with them, it’s not that you don’t just choose to not talk with them).

Basically those two things - physical harm if you attempt to leave, and isolation from the outside world, that add up to ‘cult’.

Cults also have an aura of ‘brainwashing’ around them, but that term is so over-used nowadays that some insist that any time you teach someone your religious beliefs you are brainwashing them.

Cults are different from religion, and it’s not just in an ‘insulting term for religion’ way (though it’s used that way often). Cults are different…but very difficult to pin down in definition.

 

[James_S_Saint]

Actually, the word ‘cult’ comes from the latin “cultis” or ‘worship.’ as well as the old French "colere (to attend to, cultivate, respect, etc.)

Whereas “occult” comes from the Latin "occultus,’ meaning 'secret, hidden from the understanding, hideen, concealed…past participle of occulere, meaning to cover up, hide or conceal.

Claiming that “cult” comes from “occult” is at best using a false cognate. The most one can say is that both words, way back in the Latin, share a common root word…rather like French and Italian share a common linguistic tie back to Latin, but French did not come from Italian, nor did Italian come from French.

It means: 1.Wordship: reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings.
2. A particular form or system of religious worship: esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies.

This is someone’s choice. In reality “we” use the term “cult” to refer to a sealed group of devotees. That seal is achieved through information control. Physical control is another matter (a prison).

WE use the term as it is associated with “occult”, not merely any worship.

{else even Science would be a cult}

 

[dianaiad]

I’ve heard it: a religion you are free to leave, a cult you risk physical harm in leaving. In a cult you are separated from your family and friends-no communication or physical contact, by the doctrines of that religion (so the religion teaches that you cannot talk with them, it’s not that you don’t just choose to not talk with them).

Basically those two things - physical harm if you attempt to leave, and isolation from the outside world, that add up to ‘cult’.

Cults also have an aura of ‘brainwashing’ around them, but that term is so over-used nowadays that some insist that any time you teach someone your religious beliefs you are brainwashing them.

Cults are different from religion, and it’s not just in an ‘insulting term for religion’ way (though it’s used that way often). Cults are different…but very difficult to pin down in definition.

Well, given your definition of the word, what belief systems would qualify?

 

[AndyF]

Or, we are simply seeing the manifestation of language in transition which makes use of a word which has now strayed from the original meaning, which is quite a common practice non specific of any particular language.

Andy

 

[James_S_Saint]

Well, given your definition of the word, what belief systems would qualify?

Secularism.

…snicker

Actually Christianity, Buddhism, Science, and Baha’i might be the only ones that do not insist on a form of punishment for leaving (not counting many much smaller unknown groups). And in Christianity, it depends on which group.

 

[Rawb]

Well, given your definition of the word, what belief systems would qualify?

The People’s Temple of Agriculture (Jonestown) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

The Branch Davidians of Waco Texas, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

Aum Shinrikyo (now called “Aleph”) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

The Order of the Solar Temple en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Solar_Temple

There are, of course, others, but these are some that a quick google search revealed had those qualifications.

I do not consider LDS a cult, because you are free to leave it and, despite my disagreement with their theology, c’mon - who’s ever heard of someone being physically threatened by the LDS? I think JW has more cult-like tendencies then makes me comfortable, but strictly speaking, they would not be a cult.

Also note that ‘size’ has nothing to do with whether or not something is a cult. Some of the above groups have several thousand members (supposedly), and would still qualify under these criteria.

 

[James_S_Saint]

But remember to not believe everything you hear about other people and what they are really doing.

 

[dianaiad]

The People’s Temple of Agriculture (Jonestown) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

The Branch Davidians of Waco Texas, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

Aum Shinrikyo (now called “Aleph”) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

The Order of the Solar Temple en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Solar_Temple

There are, of course, others, but these are some that a quick google search revealed had those qualifications.

I do not consider LDS a cult, because you are free to leave it and, despite my disagreement with their theology, c’mon - who’s ever heard of someone being physically threatened by the LDS? I think JW has more cult-like tendencies then makes me comfortable, but strictly speaking, they would not be a cult.

Also note that ‘size’ has nothing to do with whether or not something is a cult. Some of the above groups have several thousand members (supposedly), and would still qualify under these criteria.

Actually, I gave up on the whole thing the day I heard an otherwise sane fundamentalist Christian assure me, with great sincerity, that Catholicism was a non-Christian cult.

It even struck me speechless, and you have to understand—that’s hard to do.

 

[Rawb]

Actually, I gave up on the whole thing the day I heard an otherwise sane fundamentalist Christian assure me, with great sincerity, that Catholicism was a non-Christian cult.

I had to come up with a working definition of ‘cult’ when I started telling my friends I might like to work in exit-therapy someday (and I still might). We play devil’s advocate a lot, so they started challenging me to define cult without incriminating my own religion, and that’s what I came up with.

It even struck me speechless, and you have to understand—that’s hard to do.

Everyone has definitions of what makes someone a ‘Christian’. Ehshrug. To date, however, only one person has ever gotten me speechless, and that was because she broke through several personal barriers of mine in one fell swoop. I was in shock, lol.

 

[Ghoti]

This is someone’s choice. In reality “we” use the term “cult” to refer to a sealed group of devotees. That seal is achieved through information control. Physical control is another matter (a prison).

WE use the term as it is associated with “occult”, not merely any worship.

{else even Science would be a cult}

Who’s this “we” of which you speak? And why is that definition of “cult” more definitive than anyone else’s?

 

[Ghoti]

BTW, there’s an old Wizard of Id comic…

King goes up to the local priest, and says, “Padre, how many religions are there in the Kingdom?”

“Just one, Sire,” the priest replies.

King: “Then why are there so many churches?”

Priest: “Well, the cults have to go somewhere.”

 

[James_S_Saint]

Who’s this “we” of which you speak? And why is that definition of “cult” more definitive than anyone else’s?

He asked for opinions. I gave him the result of my experience dealing with people over the years concerning the subject. No biggy.