Cult with no way out!!!

[dianaiad]

The problem with the Jehovah’s Witnesses is that those who leave the organization are essentially considered to be hopelessly lost. Their influence could be corrupting to other members, and the policy is that they are “disfellowed”. It’s similar to shunning in the Amish communities. Other members, including family, are officially banned from all contact with them. This is often done at a formal disfellowing trial (I’m not sure the proper term) in front of church leaders. Notice is then given to the entire church body to avoid them. As far as they’re concerned, it’s as if they are dead already. I know of people who have left the organization who haven’t heard a single word from their family again, despite many attempts at contact, for more than 30 years.

My advice to Excaliber is to keep his conversion hidden from his family for now. He lives at home. Because of his years of volunteer work for the JW’s at their headquarters in Brooklyn, he has no schooling, and can’t afford to live on his own. Since JW’s believe that the final judgement will occur within their lifetime, there’s really no point to education. He has absolutely no resources. He should practice Catholicism in secret (for now), save up money, and then move out. Then, he will be free to practice somewhat more openly. So far, this has worked for him. Plus, if he still is able to maintain contact with his family, he can begin to get them to question their beliefs more slowly, perhaps opening a door for them to question their faith at some point in the future by having subtle discussions with them and planting seeds.

I was one of those people that first helped lead Excaliber on the path to the Catholic Church more than a year and a half ago on Catholic Community Forums. I’m very familiar with his family situation. The reason he questioned the JW’s in the first place is because he was thrown out from the Watchtower in New York, where he worked and lived (in dorm-style housing), with no warning, no money, no home, and no place to go. I would hate to see him in a similar situation once again.

It’s hard.

Some one is going to have to replace the support system he would lose.

 

[Gertabelle]

dianaiad and tundramom,

With love for you two, precious children of God, created in His image and likeness, and treasured by Him beyond all imagining, I must ask, could you please take your argument somewhere else?

This thread was started by Excalibur to receive advice and support for his conversion. If you want to argue about whether or not the LDS shun those who leave their church, or whether it is the one who leaves who does the shunning, I respectfully ask you to start your own thread and stop hijacking this one.

God bless you both

Gertie

 

[tundramom]

Thanks for the reminder Gertie.

Excalibur,
I apologize for derailing your thread.

in Christ
Steph

 

[dianaiad]

how are you (diana) supposed to assume that tundramom has haughtily shunned her relatives by leaving Mormonism?

I can only judge as a result of what Steph has to say to Mormons in here. That’s all I have to go on.

That is a completely backwards assessment. The apostate in his or her heart probably would like to continue talking to his or her family but it’s the family that doesn’t want to give the apostate the time of day.

Actually, I have seen it both ways. I’ve been around a long time, and have seen people who leave; they are of several types, coming from two basic ones: those who leave because they want to justify behavior that is against the doctrine/rules of the church, or those who have honestly lost their testimony and found a different faith.

Of the latter, I have found that those who have come under the influence of anti-Mormons are far more likely to abandon their families than their families are to abandon them. I’m not kidding when I tell you that Mormons are not SUPPOSED to shun those who leave. We are counseled very carefully not to do so.

However, families are people…and vulnerable. Family dynamics are all over the place, no matter what religion they belong to.

What I see happen is that the young person finds something else; friends that are more fun, meetings that are more exciting, a way of worship that appeals more, something just…feels…right elsewhere. Their new faith is full of people who are welcoming–and are quite vocal in their congratulations for leaving the evil cult. They will have pamphlets and meetings, and the new convert becomes more and more convinced that he or she has been saved from the pits of hell.

…and then he or she goes back and starts trying to convert the family. Not through love, but through denigration, contempt, argument, leaving insulting publications all over–wearing crosses to dinner, refusing to participate in family prayer, preaching every other second…the family is annoyed, heartbroken, and ultimately disgusted with the whole thing. Their child/sister/brother/ is showing contempt for the faith of the family with every word and deed. No family affair can happen without some snide remark. Dealing with him or her becomes like walking through a land mine, and the family simply gets…tired. Finally the ex just shakes the dust from his or her shoes, and…

off they go. From then on, the only communication will be the occasional birthday card or Christmas card, generally carefully chosen to show disrespect for the old faith; the only pictures of grandchildren, for instance, will be those taken at some church event under a crucifix; first communion, perhaps. Or the card will have a 'comparison between Christianity and Mormonism" chart tucked inside.

THAT is what I have experienced.

It gets very old.

Of course, for people who are embedded so strongly in systems that shun apostates, they can’t possibly begin to understand that feeling. They are too busy looking down on the apostate.

You may say you are not looking down but you are DEFINITELY more willing to give the apostate’s FAMILY MORE benefit of the doubt than the apostate. What does that say about your true colors?

You aren’t willing to give the family ANY benefit of the doubt. Why is that?

 

[Lady_Bug]

You aren’t willing to give the family ANY benefit of the doubt. Why is that?

Because I come from a Muslim family and I sincerely want to convert to Catholicism and I know that from the bottom of my heart, my intentions are not to deliberately hurt them or cause them to make me feel guilty for having a belief in another religion. But they just might try to make me feel like a horrible person. I don’t know for sure, but it is a distinct possibility.

It causes me to empathize with apostates who have no other family members of their same faith. It hurts in a way that you may not understand.

 

[tundramom]

Excalibur,
It seems to me that you are frightened of the unknown. A lot of people have given you wonderful scriptures to consider. I have another for you. Hopefully it will help you in your decision.

Matthew 19
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

We are called specifically to give up ALL things that make us rich. Be they family ties, financial, whatever else.

I believe that there are a lot of people out there who haven’t had to give up very much, by anyone else’s standards. I never had to give up financially or physically, and to the world that seems the most important things… I’m digressing here.

I guess my point is that we must be willing, or at least willing to be willing that God has to come first in our lives and whatever else we may have to give up might bring us pain, but completely submitting to God is necessary for conversion. His ways are not ours. But we have very limited vision. There’s a song that Steven Curtis Chapman sings that has a line in it that I just LOVE.

God is God, and I am not… I can only see a part of the picture He’s painting.

I’ll be praying for you!

in Christ
Steph

 

[Shin]

I don’t think its the devil, this time.
I think I realy am stuck.
There is a lot that you can’t realy communicate on an internet forum.

but I basically attempted to devote my life to God, and in fact I did work as a fulltime volunteer.
I got a lot more then what I asked for LOL.

It makes no sence!! God allowed me to find out that Jehovah’s witnesses were not who they say they are…but no way out.

Specially from the time I learned that it was not the true religion, there was no way out.
If I found out sooner I would have options, but I found out at the WORST TIME!!!

My God what an opportunity… you have the potential to make an act of perfect love and trust and faith in God.

Providence… designs all things to happen at specific times. What does God want you to do? What do you want to do? Make certain you do what God wants you to do.

You could have here… a gigantic opportunity to totally give up your life for Christ. .

There’re people who would die for that!

I don’t know how one could manage to be a hidden Christian for long as a JW, nor do I suspect it is possible since you would be likely called to false worship and false witness. It’s a difficult situation… but also… an incredible opportunity.

Prayers for you!

 

[excaliber]

The problem with the Jehovah’s Witnesses is that those who leave the organization are essentially considered to be hopelessly lost. Their influence could be corrupting to other members, and the policy is that they are “disfellowed”. It’s similar to shunning in the Amish communities. Other members, including family, are officially banned from all contact with them. This is often done at a formal disfellowing trial (I’m not sure the proper term) in front of church leaders. Notice is then given to the entire church body to avoid them. As far as they’re concerned, it’s as if they are dead already. I know of people who have left the organization who haven’t heard a single word from their family again, despite many attempts at contact, for more than 30 years.

My advice to Excaliber is to keep his conversion hidden from his family for now. He lives at home. Because of his years of volunteer work for the JW’s at their headquarters in Brooklyn, he has no schooling, and can’t afford to live on his own. Since JW’s believe that the final judgement will occur within their lifetime, there’s really no point to education. He has absolutely no resources. He should practice Catholicism in secret (for now), save up money, and then move out. Then, he will be free to practice somewhat more openly. So far, this has worked for him. Plus, if he still is able to maintain contact with his family, he can begin to get them to question their beliefs more slowly, perhaps opening a door for them to question their faith at some point in the future by having subtle discussions with them and planting seeds.

I was one of those people that first helped lead Excaliber on the path to the Catholic Church more than a year and a half ago on Catholic Community Forums. I’m very familiar with his family situation. The reason he questioned the JW’s in the first place is because he was thrown out from the Watchtower in New York, where he worked and lived (in dorm-style housing), with no warning, no money, no home, and no place to go. I would hate to see him in a similar situation once again.

I have heard wisdom in this post!!
I am working on leaving, but untill
my plan is in place…why cause problems?

It is actualy fun to sneak around, I feel like the early christians. Also Jw’s are good people and they try to help me…its only the organization that is corupt.

Also there theocratic ministry school, is gona train me to be used in the Catholic church, only they don’t know it.LOL

 

[dianaiad]

Because I come from a Muslim family and I sincerely want to convert to Catholicism and I know that from the bottom of my heart, my intentions are not to deliberately hurt them or cause them to make me feel guilty for having a belief in another religion. But they just might try to make me feel like a horrible person. I don’t know for sure, but it is a distinct possibility.

It causes me to empathize with apostates who have no other family members of their same faith. It hurts in a way that you may not understand.

…but…they might not, too. It is true, should you leave your faith and go to another one it will break their hearts. There is no getting around that.

But I’ve been in both situations. My husband is a convert. His family pretty much threw him out when he joined the CoJCoLDS; it wasn’t until he was dying that they spoke to him at all–and they were Baptists, Lutherans and Methodists. I also have a family member or two who left us and went elsewhere. Families are…

Families.

People who are connected by blood, by culture and by tradition.It can get very sticky; and every story has more than one side to it.