Cultural expectations of marriage through time

[pianistclare]

Nuptial Mass, and yes the vows are being fulfilled, albeit not in the way I imagined.

Really?
wow.
You standards of “love and honor” are way lower than mine.
I’m out.
You seem to want validation. You didn’t ask for it specifically, but I can no longer play this game of semantics. The model for your children is just not sacramental or Catholic. Jesus never asked any of us to do the impossible. If the hubs can’t possibly find it in his heart to be engaged in the marriage, or even eat dinner with his children, then he has essentially left the marriage. Whether or not you “accept” it or not. That doesn’t change anything.
Goodbye.

Peace.

 

[guiltycatholic]

Really?
wow.
You standards of “love and honor” are way lower than mine.
I’m out.
You seem to want validation. You didn’t ask for it specifically, but I can no longer play this game of semantics. The model for your children is just not sacramental or Catholic. Jesus never asked any of us to do the impossible. If the hubs can’t possibly find it in his heart to be engaged in the marriage, or even eat dinner with his children, then he has essentially left the marriage. Whether or not you “accept” it or not. That doesn’t change anything.
Goodbye.

Peace.

Ok pianistClare, I understand you aren’t seeing this. But I’m not sure what I can do except accept his behavior. I can’t change it. Literally can’t. I can only change my behavior, so instead of agonizing over his distance I can accept that that’s my marriage. Nothing has any impact on it.
And I have already said my marriage isn’t perfect, whose is? But he has been faithful to me. He hasn’t physically hurt me. He doesn’t have any addictions (besides maybe work, but ask most people and they’ll tell you I’m lucky for that one). He’s stayed with me through my health problems, even when it means abstinence for years on end. He’s welcomed children into the world. I’d say that’s pretty good living up to the wedding vows. I don’t think there would be any grounds for annulment. So he is distant towards me. I didn’t realize a good marriage means a perfect marriage. And who’s to say these circumstances won’t change someday? I just need help while I’m in the trenches. Maybe that’s what you mean by validation? If so, then yes I need validation.

 

[guiltycatholic]

I am still concerned, though, that your advice to an abused woman would essentially be the same as advice to a woman who is merely in a “more distant” marriage.

I said I’m not in a position to advise someone in an abusive situation. I don’t have any expertise in that area and I wouldn’t want to make things worse. I said I’d refer her to someone who does have expertise.

But this is your impression, no one has actually ever said it to you either in RL or on CAF. Also, you explained to me that when you say “not friends” you don’t mean “no emotional connection or love at all”, but are you actually explaining that to people in real life.

Well yes I’m telling people IRL the same things I’m saying here. And I made it clear early in this thread that we have no ill will but generally get along. What people say leads to my impression, I’m not just making it up. You didn’t even address what people could mean, you just say I’m wrong. It’s like only your impression counts but mine doesn’t count for anything. I think my impression is a pretty reasonable conclusion that could be drawn from people’s comments. I have people here leaving the conversation because I don’t agree that my marriage is essentially meaningless.

So do you accept that perhaps your own perception of what is “common knowledge” about what marriage was like in the past, might not actually be correct?

Yes, I accept I can be wrong about anything. Can you accept I might be right? Because you seem to believe only you are right about anything we’ve discussed, and I must be pretty dumb not to believe what you believe about the past. I mean, I didn’t imagine slavery. There was a HUGE difference in the way human dignity was viewed then vs now, especially in regards to women.

It may be true for your marriage but so far it seems few people are stating “yes that’s true, I have a marriage just like that!” That doesn’t mean people are denying your report of what your marriage is like.

How are you still saying “it may be true for your marriage” and then in the next breath telling me no one is denying my report of what my marriage is like? How many people have even read this thread? Even if no one here shares my experience, that doesn’t make it invalid. I’ve discussed it in other groups where it was something more people could relate to. I’m not here looking for people to just agree with me, although solidarity is nice. I wanted discussion, openness. But you seemed to relish in me saying I don’t have a perfect marriage. That seemed cruel to me. I’m laying bare the weak point of my marriage and instead of trying to offer any help I feel like you’re rubbing it in. ‘Other people’s marriages aren’t as bad as yours, even through all of history.’

There have been changes, but I think that the changes, at least for “Western” society are not quite as dramatic as you assume.

Well that may be. Let’s say they’re less dramatic. There were still changes in these areas. I feel like you just want to challenge my every sentence. I haven’t noticed you trying to see things from my perspective even a little bit. You just seem eager to prove that while my opinion could be true to some extent, I’m at least partially wrong on everything.

I’m hurting in my marriage. I’m lonely. It’s distant. I look around me and see so many others in the same boat who suffer through or end up divorcing. At least I’m trying.

 

[guiltycatholic]

One problem with “cultural knowledge” is that it’s frequently accepted as truth when it’s not true, or was only true in a specific time or place, not more generally.

Your example about working women actually illustrates that quite well - we talk about “women staying at home,” but we’re talking about something that was really only possible for a select group of women (nobility and only very recently the wealthier middle classes). For nobility, the men did not “work” either - the estate was their job.

People of more modest means have always relied on multiple sources of income, even if much of the business done by the woman took place in the home. Again, though, that was also typical of men, even if their spheres were a bit wider.

That’s a good point, many women through history did work. Although I was referring exclusively to paid work. Because unpaid work still leaves a woman dependent on others. I was merely looking for examples of a time when my current experience was the norm, to find out how those women fared.

 

[guiltycatholic]

I am not denying the existence of marriages like yours. But is the reason you started this topic only to reach out to “others like me” and get practical tips? Or did you actually want to have a discussion about “cultural expectations of marriage through time”

Now I’m confused. Before you stated you didn’t walk to talk about your marriage. Now you want ideas “about people they know who have made it work well”?

In my opinion the link between these topics is obvious. I’m looking for a discussion about past times or current times elsewhere that are similar to my current experience, to apply some of that to my life or get an idea of where it’s headed. Not just get a bunch of people in great marriages speaking from today’s prespective about how I need counseling to be more like them. To be fair, I have tried already for 6 years to have what you have and it isn’t working. I’m trying to find something that will work for me.

 

[Xantippe]

Guilty Catholic,

I think one of the things that’s hampering this discussion is the normal American usage of the word “friend.” In normal American English, almost everybody that I know that isn’t a relative is a “friend.” If it’s a close friend, you’d say “close friend.” So that’s why probably why people are puzzled by your saying that your husband isn’t your friend–it sounds very cold to the American ear since almost everybody we know and are on speaking terms with is our friend.

(I know this isn’t the case in some other languages and cultures–for example, there are two totally different terms in Russian for “casual friend” and “close friend.” But in American English, we are very loose with who we describe as a friend.)

I also feel like there’s a very natural way in which (even if spouses don’t exactly see eye to eye), they are supposed to be comrades, allies, teammates on the same team. And this isn’t some sort of high falutin’ ideal–that’s really how things usually work, even when there are substantial areas of incompatibility. Take, for example, Mr. and Mrs. Bennet in Pride and Prejudice. They are totally incompatible as a couple–but nonetheless, they are actually on the same team, and they share a lot of goals (for example, marrying off their five daughters).

I just didn’t get a very strong sense from you that you see your husband as your comrade/ally/teammate/etc.

If you do actually feel like he is your friend/comrade/ally/teammate, then give the guy a bit more credit. I feel like that’s what people have been reacting to–that you don’t talk about him as if he was on your team.

 

[pensmama87]

That’s a good point, many women through history did work. Although I was referring exclusively to paid work. Because unpaid work still leaves a woman dependent on others. I was merely looking for examples of a time when my current experience was the norm, to find out how those women fared.

Yes, I was referring to paid work as well - women took in washing or sold eggs or crops or made textiles or assisted their husbands in their crafts as well. Not just looking after children or keeping house (which is, of course, work whether it’s paid or no.)

I think your experience is not uncommon throughout human history, but I would hesitate to call it a norm. I am having a hard time thinking of a time period where it wouldn’t have seemed sad. One spouse checking out mentally and emotionally has never been seen as a good thing.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Well yes I’m telling people IRL the same things I’m saying here. And I made it clear early in this thread that we have no ill will but generally get along. What people say leads to my impression, I’m not just making it up. You didn’t even address what people could mean, you just say I’m wrong. It’s like only your impression counts but mine doesn’t count for anything. I think my impression is a pretty reasonable conclusion that could be drawn from people’s comments. I have people here leaving the conversation because I don’t agree that my marriage is essentially meaningless.

No one has stated that your marriage is “meaningless”. But I agree with pianistclare that your husband is not honoring his vows. That doesn’t invalidate your marriage, though. (And I am referring here to the Catholic concept, not the pop psych one).

Yes, I accept I can be wrong about anything. Can you accept I might be right? Because you seem to believe only you are right about anything we’ve discussed, and I must be pretty dumb not to believe what you believe about the past. I mean, I didn’t imagine slavery. There was a HUGE difference in the way human dignity was viewed then vs now, especially in regards to women.

No, I don’t think I’m necessarily right, or that you’re dumb. Why do you keep interpreting my words in the worst possible way?

How are you still saying “it may be true for your marriage” and then in the next breath telling me no one is denying my report of what my marriage is like? How many people have even read this thread? Even if no one here shares my experience, that doesn’t make it invalid.

What I meant is that “it may be true for your marriage but that doesn’t mean you can decide that your marriage would be considered normal if judged by norms of the past”.

I’ve discussed it in other groups where it was something more people could relate to. I’m not here looking for people to just agree with me, although solidarity is nice. I wanted discussion, openness. But you seemed to relish in me saying I don’t have a perfect marriage. That seemed cruel to me.

No, I’m happy that you’re being honest. Because your prior statements that you are at peace with the state of your marriage rang hollow for me. Obviously you’re not.

I’m laying bare the weak point of my marriage and instead of trying to offer any help I feel like you’re rubbing it in. 'Other people’s marriages aren’t as bad as yours, even through all of history.

Of course not! I already corrected your perception that I was equating distant marriage with abusive marriage. I don’t think your marriage is abusive. It’s good that your husband is not committing adultery. So in that way it’s not as bad as marriages were abuse and/or adultery are issues.

I’m hurting in my marriage. I’m lonely. It’s distant. I look around me and see so many others in the same boat who suffer through or end up divorcing. At least I’m trying.

I realize that. However, I do think you may be too heavily invested in your own situation to discuss the issue of “cultural expectations of marriage” dispassionately.

I’m looking for a discussion about past times or current times elsewhere that are similar to my current experience, to apply some of that to my life or get an idea of where it’s headed. Not just get a bunch of people in great marriages speaking from today’s prespective about how I need counseling to be more like them. To be fair, I have tried already for 6 years to have what you have and it isn’t working. I’m trying to find something that will work for me.

I’m not even married. I mentioned that in my very first post, as well as others. But I guess you are referring to other posters here, not me.

 

[pensmama87]

As for what spouses in your position have done and do, a few things come to mind. Many involve moving in with family, whether the marriage stays in name or not. Some treat their spouse like a child and limit access to the best of their ability those things that can cause the most harm to the family. Some ran an essential double life and socked away money so when their spouse gambled or drank away the money the family was supposed to live on they wouldn’t starve.

(Much of this is before social safety nets.)

Others successfully or unsuccessfully issue ultimatums. Best done if follow through will happen. If not, the ultimatum is useless.

In this day and age, counseling is done not to try and change the spouse but to help the other cope and recognize and implement appropriate boundaries, and determine if there’s a breaking point and how to navigate it.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s another example of a traditional partnership marriage from literature: Mr. and Mrs. Beaver from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

They aren’t soul mates (although both being beavers, they are well-matched), but they work together well, and are both hard-working and kind.

 

[Xantippe]

OP,

If you’re still around, does your husband not come to dinner because he’s actually working late, because he’s off engaging in some sort of other random activity, or is he actually home and making you guys eat by yourselves?

If it’s the last two (and especially the third one), I’d drop a hammer on that.

There’s no way that could be passed off as “traditional” conduct, especially the third one. (It’s true there’s always been a bad tradition of going to the pub after work and barely finding one’s way home–but nobody thought that’s what a model husband looked like.)

In this thread, you’ve been making this primarily about you and how you can get by without a real partnership in your marriage–but how well can your kids manage with a purposely absentee dad? (If that is the case–it really sounded like it in your recent “married to a teenager” thread.) So, in your shoes, that’s how I would put it to him–that his kids need him and are growing up without him.

That said, kids often need a very early (by adult standards) dinner, so they might need to eat their real dinner around 5 and then have some fruit or some other snack when daddy has his dinner.

 

[EasterJoy]

In my opinion the link between these topics is obvious. I’m looking for a discussion about past times or current times elsewhere that are similar to my current experience, to apply some of that to my life or get an idea of where it’s headed. Not just get a bunch of people in great marriages speaking from today’s prespective about how I need counseling to be more like them. To be fair, I have tried already for 6 years to have what you have and it isn’t working. I’m trying to find something that will work for me.

Your questions about an otherwise good marriage with a mismatch in social expectations reminds me of this contemporary joke. I don’t mean to make light of your problems. I hope it lightens up your real dilemma of how to cope with a husband who isn’t as emotionally close as you feel you need him to be…because no, not every very good marriage involves a friendship in which the spouses share feelings verbally, and that can be hard for the one who would like to share feelings, but doesn’t have that opportunity.

Wife’s Diary:

Tonight, I thought my husband was acting weird. We had made plans to meet at a nice restaurant for dinner. I was shopping with my friends all day long, so I thought he was upset at the fact that I was a bit late, but he made no comment on it. Conversation wasn’t flowing, so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so we could talk. He agreed, but he didn’t say much.

I asked him what was wrong; He said, ‘Nothing…’ I asked him if it was my fault that he was upset. He said he wasn’t upset, that it had nothing to do with me, and not to worry about it. On the way home, I told him that I loved him. He smiled slightly, and kept driving. I can’t explain his behavior. I don’t know why he didn’t say, ‘I love you, too.’

When we got home, I felt as if I had lost him completely, as if he wanted nothing to do with me anymore. He just sat there quietly, and watched TV. He continued to seem distant and absent. Finally, with silence all around us, I decided to go to bed. About 15 minutes later, he came to bed. But I still felt that he was distracted, and his thoughts were somewhere else. He fell asleep; I cried. I don’t know what to do. I’m almost sure that his thoughts are with someone else. My life is a disaster.

Husband’s Diary:

It was a gimme par, and I five-putt!! Who the h3ll ever five-putts!?!

 

[AdamP88]

Your questions about an otherwise good marriage with a mismatch in social expectations reminds me of this contemporary joke. I don’t mean to make light of your problems. I hope it lightens up your real dilemma of how to cope with a husband who isn’t as emotionally close as you feel you need him to be…because no, not every very good marriage involves a friendship in which the spouses share feelings verbally, and that can be hard for the one who would like to share feelings, but doesn’t have that opportunity.

Wife’s Diary:

Tonight, I thought my husband was acting weird. We had made plans to meet at a nice restaurant for dinner. I was shopping with my friends all day long, so I thought he was upset at the fact that I was a bit late, but he made no comment on it. Conversation wasn’t flowing, so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so we could talk. He agreed, but he didn’t say much.

I asked him what was wrong; He said, ‘Nothing…’ I asked him if it was my fault that he was upset. He said he wasn’t upset, that it had nothing to do with me, and not to worry about it. On the way home, I told him that I loved him. He smiled slightly, and kept driving. I can’t explain his behavior. I don’t know why he didn’t say, ‘I love you, too.’

When we got home, I felt as if I had lost him completely, as if he wanted nothing to do with me anymore. He just sat there quietly, and watched TV. He continued to seem distant and absent. Finally, with silence all around us, I decided to go to bed. About 15 minutes later, he came to bed. But I still felt that he was distracted, and his thoughts were somewhere else. He fell asleep; I cried. I don’t know what to do. I’m almost sure that his thoughts are with someone else. My life is a disaster.

Husband’s Diary:

It was a gimme par, and I five-putt!! Who the h3ll ever five-putts!?!

Sooo true!

 

[guiltycatholic]

Okay everyone. I guess I should have made this a different kind of post. It can’t be what I thought it could be. I guess I can just have yet another post about how miserable I am in my marriage. I didn’t start this to mislead anyone about the type of conversation I meant to have. I actually thought it was possible but I can see it isn’t. I will only talk about my own marriage from now on.

He doesn’t come to dinner most nights because he’s at work until we all go to sleep. (And he doesn’t eat breakfast with us because he’s at work before we wake up.) When he’s home he doesn’t come to dinner because he isn’t hungry. His diet is also different from ours because he won’t eat vegetables or home cooked meals. Other times it’s because he goes out bowling with his friends. I know this isn’t traditional.

I have already told him what effect this has on me and the children but it doesn’t affect his behavior. He is not concerned about the children growing up without him, but they are. The little time he does get at home he usually spends with the children. It’s really our marriage that’s suffering the most.They are little and don’t realize how absent he is. They think he’s the greatest because he brings them toys nearly every time he sees them, takes them out to eat, and is all silly and playful with them. Meanwhile I have had to learn to live on my own with them day to day, bearing every responsibility besides making money. Along with not earning money comes the feeling that I don’t get to spend it either.

His sense of importance comes from work, and he’s fully addicted to it. And I simply can’t compete with recognition, interest, titles, paychecks, success, etc. There is no amount of compliments I can give him, or “rewards,” or fun dates, or interesting conversation that will ever make him want to be home and invested in me. He doesn’t respect me, he sees my basic human need for fun and interaction as a mere “want” and therefore last on a long list of priorities. He can’t understand why I don’t just plan fun outings with the kids every day and go on elaborate adventures that are free and fun, entertain myself and go create my own happiness. Because he has zero idea what parenting and running a household is actually like.

As an update from my previous post, I did the morning meetings with him for about a month or so, but he stopped because the holiday work hours got crazy, and they’ve stayed crazy so there just “isn’t time.” I wasn’t able to hire a sitter last month because I didn’t do it before the money was gone. I realized that it’s too late to hire a sitter once he’s worked 60 hours anyway, because it’s during those 60 hours that I need the break, not after. I got my own bank account that he doesn’t have access to. I bought the things we need at the house that I had been waiting on “approval” for, and enlisted my dad’s help to do projects I couldn’t do alone.

I haven’t started getting my career going yet. Still extremely apprehensive about that. It feels like the last nail in the coffin of our marriage. If I can support myself and the kids, then there really is no reason to be married anymore, aside from the sacramental perspective, of course. And the children, if staying in this kind of marriage is considered beneficial to them. I’m having a lot of trouble with that because I feel trapped in this situation when he’s not living up to it. I am so tempted by the thought of getting out of this marriage and finding an actual adult partner.

When I was 9 months pregnant with our second child and my husband worked about 2 miles from our apartment, he actually told me to make a plan for how to get to the hospital because he can’t just leave work. I don’t bring this up because I’m trying to nurture a grudge, but just to illustrate his priorities.

I’m sick of being told how lucky I am that he supports the family and I get the privilege of staying home. I forced him to climb the ladder several years ago when he was content at 28k, and now he’s finally at a livable wage. But I live with the two children in an upstairs 2 bedroom apartment, where rent is $700/mo and water is included. We have a 13-year old sedan that I brought into the marriage for free. I shop only at thrift stores. He’s not providing that well for us. I mean I’m really low maintenance and willing to sacrifice, but I HATE hearing how great a provider he is. If you do the math he makes less than $14 per hour. He provides a paycheck twice a month - I provide everything else. Meanwhile he buys little things all the time, goes out to eat alone regularly, goes out with his friends regularly. So there’s never money for things like a house, a real family car, vacations, furniture, etc.

If we at least had love to live on, I think I might be okay. But my capacity to love is so diminished from doing EVERYTHING and raising our kids by myself, and the psychological torture of hearing him say he’ll “help me” by brushing the kids teeth “for me” twice a month and other things like that. He’s completely oblivious despite YEARS I’ve been working on it. I’ve been considering what you’ve all said, so two days ago I told him I want us to go to counseling again. He refused and said I can’t go either because it doesn’t help and just makes me upset.

I’m at the end of my rope. The only thing left to me besides actual separation is emotional detachment. I am willing to put the past behind me, start my own new life, not on bad terms with him, but without his real involvement. Regain some dignity. I’m at peace with the thought of no longer fighting this. He’s not my teammate. He’s not fighting for us. I just want to fulfill my obligations to him, but live a life that lets him continue to do his own thing with less disruption to my life, since I have no choice. That’s the hypothetical world I was trying to discuss on this thread.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, finally.

I think you may know the answer.

 

[Xantippe]

Some thoughts:

1. I know you’re probably not going to be able to sell him on this, but it isn’t necessary to eat dinner with the family to spend time at dinner with them–he could just have a glass of water or whatever. Plus, it would be nice if he helped you with the children at dinner and provided you adult conversation–surely he should have something to tell you about, given that he’s been away from home for the past 12+ hours?

I’m sure you’ve seen the research as to the benefits of family dinners for children.

washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/12/the-most-important-thing-you-can-do-with-your-kids-eat-dinner-with-them/?utm_term=.f5838085d8b7

That author is a bit overzealous–but one of the things your husband is cheating your kids of is the opportunity to hear and participate in adult conversation.

I have actually been through a very mild form of this with my own husband. We once went on a vacation (our first trip together in two years) where he didn’t want to eat breakfast at the hotel buffet with us because it was too expensive. He was just going to stay in the hotel room and eat our stuff while I wrangled all of our children by myself. I initially wasn’t able to express myself about this, but eventually I was able to get across that it was a miserable way for me to spend a short, rare vacation and it just wasn’t fair. (He was only seeing the amazing cost savings.)

1. Your husband’s no-home-cooking diet has got to be ruinously expensive for your family. It’s also likely to send him to an early grave, as is his work schedule.

I understand that he is probably not at all receptive to hearing this.

1. I think it’s really gross that your husband (by your description) is pretty much burning money, but you don’t get to spend even a fraction of the disposable income that he does.

If it’s so easy to have free fun adventures with the kids, why do his outings with them cost money?

1. How did your marriage counseling go with him? What does he say when you talk about your social needs during counseling sessions?

Did you have a chance to talk about his spending during your counseling sessions?

1. I can buy that Christmas season and returns at Walmart are a very busy time, but I don’t buy that it’s still incredibly busy in early February. I go to the mall at least once a week–there just aren’t that many cars this time of year.
2. I actually don’t fault him on the hospital thing, because it would be a good idea to have a backup plan for transportation. (Did he actually drive you, by the way?)

However, as a matter of fact, I suspect that his doing that did not actually do him any favors at work. If he seriously stayed right through his shift while you were at the hospital, I bet his bosses wouldn’t see that as dedication, but as him being a big selfish weirdo. There’s a really good chance that that made him look bad.

Some of the other stuff he’s doing (like his hours) may actually be backfiring in the same way.

1. I encourage you to work on your career because that will give you a lot more leverage at home. It takes away the “you’re spending my money” argument.

My dad, for example, is much more respectful to my mom now that she makes at least half their money.

1. As to you being “lucky,” I have a little logic for you. Either

a) your being home is the best thing for your family

or

b) you working would be the best thing for your family.

If a), then you have nothing to apologize for. If b), then you should work.

1. Have you ever asked him what his dreams are? That’s a standard Dave Ramsey technique for dealing with the spendthrift “free spirit” spouse and getting them to realize that they can’t achieve their dreams if they keep doing what they’re doing.
2. I don’t think there’s a route to dignity for you that doesn’t either involve him having some sort of breakthrough in marriage counseling (which he doesn’t want to go to) or you making as much as he does.
3. The toothbrushing thing–

I’m so sorry.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

If we at least had love to live on, I think I might be okay. But my capacity to love is so diminished from doing EVERYTHING and raising our kids by myself, and the psychological torture of hearing him say he’ll “help me” by brushing the kids teeth “for me” twice a month and other things like that. He’s completely oblivious despite YEARS I’ve been working on it. I’ve been considering what you’ve all said, so two days ago I told him I want us to go to counseling again. He refused and said I can’t go either because it doesn’t help and just makes me upset.

I’m at the end of my rope. The only thing left to me besides actual separation is emotional detachment. I am willing to put the past behind me, start my own new life, not on bad terms with him, but without his real involvement. Regain some dignity. I’m at peace with the thought of no longer fighting this. He’s not my teammate. He’s not fighting for us. I just want to fulfill my obligations to him, but live a life that lets him continue to do his own thing with less disruption to my life, since I have no choice. That’s the hypothetical world I was trying to discuss on this thread.

This is all very sad. It seems he is already acting as if you already ARE separated and he’s just paying alimony/child support, and showing up every once in a while to “babysit” the children. He essentially gets to have the best of both the single and married worlds. While you get the worst parts.

No you cannot change him and I am glad accepting that has brought you some peace. I will not say any more as I do not wish to cause you more pain. I am sorry about doing that before.

 

[Xantippe]

He’s completely oblivious despite YEARS I’ve been working on it. I’ve been considering what you’ve all said, so two days ago I told him I want us to go to counseling again. He refused and said I can’t go either because it doesn’t help and just makes me upset.

I’m at the end of my rope. The only thing left to me besides actual separation is emotional detachment. I am willing to put the past behind me, start my own new life, not on bad terms with him, but without his real involvement. Regain some dignity. I’m at peace with the thought of no longer fighting this. He’s not my teammate. He’s not fighting for us. I just want to fulfill my obligations to him, but live a life that lets him continue to do his own thing with less disruption to my life, since I have no choice. That’s the hypothetical world I was trying to discuss on this thread.

I suggest you have a look at the book Boundaries in Marriage. It’s how to be respectful, loving, and firm with a spouse who is out of line. (I don’t like some of the punitive examples, because I feel like they could backfire, but it does provide a lot of examples of what it looks like to be respectful, loving, and firm.)

The reason why you’ve been upset is that your marital situation is inequitable. Forget about love–what you are talking about is simply unfair. If the shoes were on the other foot, your husband would not tolerate the kind of behavior that you are tolerating from him. Also, it’s unsustainable.

I think you need economic independence, but you also need to learn to talk to your husband. The trick here (and I’ve had to learn this myself) is to learn to speak without anger, but to briefly, calmly (and very clearly) tell him how the situation looks from your perspective. Don’t yell and don’t go on and on. And don’t be afraid to wait and think so that when you say what you have to say, you are saying exactly what you want to say. The trick is to say things briefly and calmly that it is almost impossible to argue with because they are so self-evidently true.

If you can’t manage that by yourself, a good counselor can teach you how to do it. If your husband objects, tell him that you feel very angry with him and you want to learn how to control your anger.

You’ve probably heard of the 5:1 positive:negative ratio, where for every negative thing you say, you need to say 5 positive things? I would encourage you to do that–but also explain the theory to your husband, and ask that he try to aim for a 5:1 ratio when talking to you.

 

[EasterJoy]

Okay everyone. I guess I should have made this a different kind of post. It can’t be what I thought it could be. I guess I can just have yet another post about how miserable I am in my marriage. I didn’t start this to mislead anyone about the type of conversation I meant to have. I actually thought it was possible but I can see it isn’t. I will only talk about my own marriage from now on.

He doesn’t come to dinner most nights because he’s at work until we all go to sleep. (And he doesn’t eat breakfast with us because he’s at work before we wake up.) When he’s home he doesn’t come to dinner because he isn’t hungry. His diet is also different from ours because he won’t eat vegetables or home cooked meals. Other times it’s because he goes out bowling with his friends. I know this isn’t traditional.

I have already told him what effect this has on me and the children but it doesn’t affect his behavior. He is not concerned about the children growing up without him, but they are. The little time he does get at home he usually spends with the children. It’s really our marriage that’s suffering the most…

Well, you’ve established that although marriages of convenience did exist in the past, they were never the ideal and they were never easy.

If you’re ready for actual separation, then it is time to get blunt:

A) Keep track of where your money goes, so you can show him how much of the money he makes goes to his entertainment and his other friendships.

B) Keep track of how much time he spends out with other people, even bowling, and compare that to the* zero time* he spends alone with you, so you can show him how much time he spends with people who are an actual priority to him.

Then tell him you need to talk, without interruption, and that when you are done he will have the floor.

Show him what a civil divorce, separate accommodations and sharing custody is going to cost him. Really pencil it out. Then tell him you aren’t willing to accept being treated like his full-time nanny, which is what you are getting, because full-time nannies have better benefits than you do.

Then say: OK, that’s my side of it. Now tell me your side of it, because I really do want to know. There are other ways we can do this, after all. Even if we keep doing what we’re doing, let’s decide on a way together.

The alternative is to allow him kill your marriage with the death of a thousand cuts, with a slow bleed-out. That’s not protecting your marriage. That’s standing idly by while you watch it die.

He either needs to fish or cut bait: That is, he can either be a husband in some sense of the word that makes sense to his wife or else be willing to take the consequences of having an ex-wife and child-support payment to make. He can’t have his cake and eat it, too.

I’m not a proponent of divorce. I have lived through much of what you’re living through, but there were some big differences and my husband and I made our choices together. He had me on board, and his workaholic hours did not last forever. That is very different from having it dictated to you that you’re going to be a “work widow,” whether you like it or not, when there is a choice of doing it another way.