Cultural influences in sacred music

[otjm]

That is an issue for the bishop/archbishop. not for people who have little or not training in Liturgy.

It might come as a bit of surprise that in some cultures, religious dance is permitted as it is part of their culture; and you may find this for example in some of the Pacific Islands, and in at least some parts of Africa.

Would that be appropriate in North America or in Europe? The Church has already answered that “No.”

And it might set your teeth on edge should you be in a country in which it is acceptable; but your reaction negatively to it does not define right/wrong religious/irreligious.

That is why I gave you the answer I did. You found it distracting in the parish you attended; I would not be the least bit surprised if you found religious dance distracting at the minimum - I would find it distracting simply because it is not expressive of my culture. The phrase “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” comes to mind.

As to a parish with a prominently Black culture - whether Caribbean influenced or Africa influenced, you are stepping into a different culture - and when in Rome…

I am not in the least saying that you should be perfectly fine with it; in fact, if it is disturbing to your ability to pray, then you should go to a different parish.

And if you were to come across a parish which had, for example, a number of families who have emigrated from perhaps Africa or India, both of which in recent memory were colonialized by European countries, you might find that those families carried the memory of their grandparents or great grandparents living under colonial rule, and not particularly interested in being subjected to what they would easily identify as “colonial”, meaning Gregorian chant or Palestrina - both of which would likely be readily accepted and loved in a relatively conservative OF parish or an EF parish. Depending on their family experience over a couple of centuries, it might even be painful to them.

I was just trying to use an example of something which, if taken to some extreme, may become wrong.

What we call “reverence” is too often in the eye of the beholder. One needs to look a lot deeper than just externals; one needs to look at how people are living their lives - do they follow Christ, or is religion simply a self affirmation.

Again, as others have pointed out, it is yup to the bishop to determine what is “too far”, I suppose it is possible to have a bishop who had such a bias that he was unable to sort through matters, but there is always the possibility to appeal a matter to Rome. On the whole, however, most bishops seem to understand what is and is not acceptable culturally without the help of people who are concerned about a culture different than their own.

 

[Gyro]

However, it didn’t say “pride of place, in every place, every time”!

I think that “pride of place” has to do with the “place” which chant has, and continues to hold, within the historical opus of liturgical music in the Church. Clearly, it has withstood the challenge of centuries. As far as liturgical music goes, there is no Palestrina without chant. Nor is there Durufle or Messiaen. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms (to mention only a very few) follow the course and design of the the Latin liturgy in creating their Masses. That means we hear the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, and the Bendictus in their proper order and in their liturgically specific language. The greatest composers in history have embraced the Catholic Mass as the template for some of their greatest compositions. So, are these “European” compositions, or are they universal and, hence, timeless? I think the latter.

 

[umamibella]

Liturgical Inculturation is a thing.

 

[pnewton]

I didn’t say where a line should be drawn I was just asking if there’s a point at which cultural influence does become irreverent.

There is no one line, not one place. Each bishop makes the determination of the limits he will allow. There is also a guideline against using secular music, but even that must be defined.

 

[27lw]

Oh right, when the Church says “Gregorian chant has pride of place”, that means “don’t sing it”.

 

[OraLabora]

Oh right, when the Church says “Gregorian chant has pride of place”, that means “don’t sing it”.

“Don’t sing it badly”. For most parishioners today, they’re limited to the simpler settings of the ordinary. Back in the days of the Tridentine Mass, the faithful didn’t sing it at all! The schola or choir would handle the complex antiphons of the Propers, and the altar servers/acolytes would handle the people’s responses and sometimes the Ordinary, which isn’t always “ordinary” in difficulty!

Sacrosanctum Concilium did specify clearly that the faithful were to participate actively. That rules out most of the corpus of Gregorian chant for all but trained choristers. Of course it is possible for the laity to learn the simpler settings of the Ordinary, SC also recommends that. Kyrie XVI, Gloria XV (or VIII from the well-known Missa de Angelus) and Sanctus/Agnus XVIII are good ones to use, as well as Credo II (or III which many seem to know as it usually accompanies Missa de Angelis). And also the Pater Noster.

Those would be nice to have regularly. What would not be nice is to hear a complex Introit, Gradual, Offertory etc. performed by an unskilled choir. That would be murder on the ears! The Graduale Simplex was designed for less skilled choirs but alas it never really took off at the parish level.

 

[27lw]

27lw:

Oh right, when the Church says “Gregorian chant has pride of place”, that means “don’t sing it”.

“Don’t sing it badly”. For most parishioners today, they’re limited to the simpler settings of the ordinary. Back in the days of the Tridentine Mass, the faithful didn’t sing it at all! The schola or choir would handle the complex antiphons of the Propers, and the altar servers/acolytes would handle the people’s responses and sometimes the Ordinary, which isn’t always “ordinary” in difficulty!

Sacrosanctum Concilium did specify clearly that the faithful were to participate actively. That rules out most of the corpus of Gregorian chant for all but trained choristers. Of course it is possible for the laity to learn the simpler settings of the Ordinary, SC also recommends that. Kyrie XVI, Gloria XV (or VIII from the well-known Missa de Angelus) and Sanctus/Agnus XVIII are good ones to use, as well as Credo II (or III which many seem to know as it usually accompanies Missa de Angelis). And also the Pater Noster.

Those would be nice to have regularly. What would not be nice is to hear a complex Introit, Gradual, Offertory etc. performed by an unskilled choir. That would be murder on the ears! The Graduale Simplex was designed for less skilled choirs but alas it never really took off at the parish level.

Oh gosh, I hear bad singing at Masses all the time. Do the instructions say “full conscious and active participation if the laity is going to sing well”?

I wish it did.
Our parish will belt out the Snow setting of “Our Father”. When we’re allowed. I realize that’s not Gregorian chant, but it’s an indication that some form of chanting is possible for a congregation.

 

[pnewton]

Oh right, when the Church says “Gregorian chant has pride of place”, that means “don’t sing it”.

Not true, sarcasm notwithstanding. But it also does not equate to singing it the most, or even everywhere, every time, etc. It means a place of pride.

 

[OraLabora]

Oh gosh, I hear bad singing at Masses all the time. Do the instructions say “full conscious and active participation if the laity is going to sing well ”?

I wish it did.
Our parish will belt out the Snow setting of “Our Father”. When we’re allowed. I realize that’s not Gregorian chant, but it’s an indication that some form of chanting is possible for a congregation.

The problem is that many confuse Gregorian chant with simple plainchant, such as when the priest chants the preface and EP. And they think the simple settings of the Ordinary are representative of Gregorian chant.

There are complex settings of the Ordinary, and there’s the Propers too, as per the 1974 Graduale Romanum. In a parish setting one only will sing/hear a tiny portion of the corpus of Gregorian chant unless the parish has a schola or choir trained in Gregorian chant. Even our schola, singing only once a month, only touches the surface, even though we also do introits, alleluias, offertories and communion antiphons (we rarely do the Gradual, instead we sing the responsorial psalm to Gregorian psalmody adapted to French).

 

[goout]

So when it comes to music at Mass, how much (if any) leeway should be given on cultural grounds? Like I’m from New Orleans and there are a few majority black parishes who have gospel choirs, and my friend went to Jamaica and said that the music at Mass there is very Caribbean-influenced. In both cases the musical tradition is descended from slaves who would sing spirituals in the fields. However, I have gone to a gospel Mass before out of curiosity, and it was very loud and distracting; almost more of a show than a Mass (no disrespect intended, but that was my takeaway). So is there a point at which tradition should yield to some level of cultural influence? Where should the line be drawn?

Some cultural appropriations are appropriate and some are not appropriate. Or at least some have an air of indifference.
Appropriating the authentic spirituality of black people would seem to be appropriate. And it does not have the air of secularism about it, like some of the more “popular” themed music. I was at a parish recently where the Mass setting was not much different from a broadway musical setting. It was awful, you couldn’t follow it intuitively, and it had no tie to any authentic cultural significance. It was honestly so bad as to be distracting from the Mass.

We were at a Mass in Norfolk VA at the cathedral, and the Mass had a gospel feel to it. And it was sacred and authentic, not contrived. The music didn’t pander.

The Church shouldn’t try to fit the secular culture. It ought to be transcendent of the world’s values and music at Mass ought to convey that.

 

[Alexandria2020]

Like I’m from New Orleans and there are a few majority black parishes who have gospel choirs, and my friend went to Jamaica and said that the music at Mass there is very Caribbean-influenced.

in the case of the Syro-Malabar Church of India, the music is kinda Indian classical music influenced (Carnatic music). of course traditionalists try to get the music in a more pro-Syriac nature, while the modernists try to make it more Indian (aka “Hindu”). I’m sure every church is influenced of whatever culture they are in. Although the Syro-Malabars are Christian Catholics in terms of their religion and theology, in terms of culture- they are Hindu.

 

[Peeps]

As a church organist/pianist since childhood (I’m now 63), I would like to encourage any parents (or even grandparents) reading this to please, please get your children involved with some kind of music program that will (1) teach them how to read music and (2) teach them how to sing correctly.

Do not allow them to attend a school that has abandoned traditional music education and replaced it with “popular” music like hip-hop. It’s ok to learn about the current popular styles, but I would bet cash that the Top 40 musicians from all genres (including American country music!) know how to read music and how to sing correctly, and that’s why they are so good at their choice of musical style.

I realize that people can learn/read chant without knowing how to read music (they read neumes), but they won’t be able to sing Palestrina, Bach, or any of the “classical” composers, and even singing a modern church choir anthem will be difficult. Yes, I know that many choir directors will play parts and there are singers who learn their part by listening to it played. But wow, this sure takes a lot of time out of the rehearsal and really limits what the choir can accomplish.

Learning to read music while young is a great skill, and I can absolutely guarantee that no adult child will ever come to you and say, “Boy, I wish I hadn’t learned how to read music! What a waste of my childhood time! And I never use that skill now.”

Nope, they won’t say that!

And as long as your children/grandchildren are learning to sing (or play an instrument), why not learn it along with them?

I would also like to encourage people reading this thread to please not be willing to accept just any old singing (or playing organ/piano) in the Mass. Yes, if that’s truly the BEST we are capable of due to our age or income, it’s fine and God will be pleased by our loving offering of music.

But aren’t we capable of more? Why not aspire to musical excellence if possible (finances, time, physical ability, etc.)? Why not learn as much as we can about how to sing/play better?

 

[27lw]

Peeps - great post!
I also wish to encourage any Catholic school staff to implement learning any chant, even if it’s at the most basic level.
Why not start theology class by listening to the seasonal Marian antiphon? At least then kids will have a concept of what chant is!

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What are the Seasonal Marian Antiphons

The seasonal Marian antiphons are four beautiful and ancient prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are sung nightly following Compline. (Compline is Night Prayer of the Liturgy of the Hours. It’s obligatory for priests–and recommended for the rest of us.)

The Marian antiphons are “seasonal” because they shift according to the liturgical seasons of the year. From Advent through Candlemas (Feb. 2), Alma Redemptoris Mater is sung. From the day after Candlemas (Feb. 3) through the end of Lent, Ave Regina Coelorum . From Easter through Pentecost, Regina Coeli . After Pentecost (Ordinary Time), Salve Regina .

Four Marian Chants Every Catholic Should Know - OnePeterFive

 

[OraLabora]

After Pentecost (Ordinary Time), Salve Regina .

A bit of trivia. The Cistercians of both observances always sing the Salve Regina at the end of Compline, regardless of the season.