Culture of life and voting in the U.S

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Some recent threads got me to thinking about this again. I know it was a hot topic during the presidential elections, and tempers run high at those times, particularly with the particular candidates in 2004. Maybe discussion with a little distance from the election will be helpful.

Recently, people have commented that pro-life Democrats are lost souls. I think everyone pretty much agrees with that, at least at this point. Others point out that the Repulicans only seem to champion life before birth.

As Catholics, we are called to champion life and quality of life (food, education, safety, health care, peace) at all stages. What can and should we do to try to bring our political reality more into line with our faith?

I know the initial response will be along the lines of “if you don’t get to be born, none of these other issues will matter.” I totally agree with that; however, being against abortion doesn’t exempt us from our affirmative obligation to seek justice and care for all of the poor and oppressed. This isn’t an either/or situation, it’s how to do both.

I’ve heard people allege that those who act only to prevent abortion and not to advocate for the poor and oppressed do so because it’s easier. It’s easier to feel passionate about a tiny, unborn child being murdered than it is to dwell upon the poor or mentally ill or handicapped and others who in addition to being those things might also be criminals or unsavory in other ways. It’s harder to see Christ in them. I think that’s true for me. I’m more challenged there.

I’ve also heard people accuse prolifers of focusing of that because it takes a lot less from their pockets than would voting for funding for social programs.

For me, I find the choice between Democrats and Republicans problematic for all the reasons people usually point out. In 2004, I voted for President Bush mostly because of the abortion issue, which I felt was going to come to a head during this term. My rationale was that my husband and I could increase our charitable giving to local shelters, CRS, the Campaign for Human Development, and other resources for the poor and thereby at least partly meet that responsibility, but that the only way to really face the abortion challenge was through voting at the national level.

I know it’s far from a perfect solution. I know my individual donations are spit in the ocean compared to what the government can provide. I write letters to congressman in s;upport of Bread for the World. I know there’s more I should do.

Thoughts? How do others reconcile their choices?
 
Good points, all.
If there was a political candidate or party whom I felt would be able to eliminate abortion altogether (and not just make it illegal, but eliminate abortion from actually happening - a big difference) then I would vote for the candidate. I don’t see that ever happening anytime soon, though. Certainly there is no reason to think that George Bush is going to do anything in the next 3 years.
With that said, I vote for the candidate whom I think will work to improve the lives and well-being of all Americans, especially those in need. That usually means voting for the Democrat.
 
I didn’t have to do a whole lot of soul-searching when I voted. Voting democrat will only make abortion easier. This I cannot condone.

I do care about the poor and downtrodden. The government, however, is not the appropriate entity to help them.
 
Along these lines, don’t some pro-life groups assist mothers?

Isn’t the Church Herself the largest pro-life organization helping the poor? (rhetorical)
 
Isn’t the Church Herself the largest pro-life organization helping the poor? (rhetorical)
I don’t know – is She? I know the Catholic church does an enormous amount of good through her charitable acts, but it’s hardly enough to solve the problem. For those who think government isn’t the proper entity to help the poor, what is and why are there so many poor, especially in the US, which is a basically wealthy country? And what about the third world nations, and the people suffering from famine – what is the appropriate entity to help and what is it doing? I know CRS and other relief agencies are working there, but the crisis is far from solved.

What are your solutions?

 
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norbert:
Good points, all.
If there was a political candidate or party whom I felt would be able to eliminate abortion altogether (and not just make it illegal, but eliminate abortion from actually happening - a big difference) then I would vote for the candidate. I don’t see that ever happening anytime soon, though. Certainly there is no reason to think that George Bush is going to do anything in the next 3 years.
With that said, I vote for the candidate whom I think will work to improve the lives and well-being of all Americans, especially those in need. That usually means voting for the Democrat.
This is like a republican voter saying, I’d vote for a democrat if they could deliver, not promise but really deliver, to completely end poverty. It seems like your trying to justify the decision that already made by setting the benchmark too high.
 
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dwc:
Others point out that the Repulicans only seem to champion life before birth.
That is THE talking point the abortion lobby uses against Republicans, Christians, Conservatives or anyone else who opposes them. It is nonsense.

Who do the “others” think fights euthanasia? Supports homeschoolers? Wants vouchers for all kids? Expanded the child care tax credit? Seeks to protect marriage? Wants trial lawyers to stop bleeding our medical system dry (remember John Edwards milked the system out of over $45 million on bogus claims OBGYNs were responsible for CP)? Tries to stop the gay lobby from indoctrinating children? Defends the Boy Scouts of America from the ACLU? Wants lower taxes so maybe, just maybe, one parent can stay home with the kids rather than have one paycheck go to taxes and some state institution baby sit the kids.
 
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David_Paul:
That is THE talking point the abortion lobby uses against Republicans, Christians, Conservatives or anyone else who opposes them. It is nonsense.

Who do the “others” think fights euthanasia? Supports homeschoolers? Wants vouchers for all kids? Expanded the child care tax credit? Seeks to protect marriage? Wants trial lawyers to stop bleeding our medical system dry (remember John Edwards milked the system out of over $45 million on bogus claims OBGYNs were responsible for CP)? Tries to stop the gay lobby from indoctrinating children? Defends the Boy Scouts of America from the ACLU? Wants lower taxes so maybe, just maybe, one parent can stay home with the kids rather than have one paycheck go to taxes and some state institution baby sit the kids.
Excuse me, John Edwards did what? Please give me some links to that info.
 
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MichaelTDoyle:
Along these lines, don’t some pro-life groups assist mothers?

Isn’t the Church Herself the largest pro-life organization helping the poor? (rhetorical)
Yes and yes

I counseld for 5 years at a Crisis pregnancy center. We gave preganancy tests, had a maternity closet that included babises clothes, toys, maternity clotes, etc. We also had parenitng classes , child care classes, and financial planning classes. In addtion we offered a JUCO scholarship for Single mothers, We also had ran revovery groups for women who had had an abortion and were haunted by it. For those who wanted it we had connections with several adoption agencies. in short we supported the woman no matter what “choice” she made

Contrast that to the supposed “Pro-Choice” groups. What supprt does planned Parenthood and NARL give to the woman who chooses to have her child???

When you hear those who claim pro-life people dont care about the child after it is born(the old better dead than underfed argument) what they are really saying is we often oppose, as ineffective, the expansion of the welfare state. Their attitde is if the Govt doesnt provide it it doesnt count.I guarantee you in our area the local Churchs provide as much or more assisatnce to the poor an the got does.
 
Momofone. . .Didn’t get much national media coverage during the campaign did it? 🙂

Here is one article: Did Junk Science Make John Edwards Rich?

Dozens of other articles here

He didn’t take many cases in which the baby died. Not enough money in it for him. Half a mil or so for a death. Millions for a disability.

Worse part of this is Edwards and other trial lawyers are responsible for a huge increase in Caesarians as well as forcing OBGYNs out of the business.
 
Real change ain’t comin from Washington.

Break out the Rosary beads!
 
Well…change does come from D.C. but it is mostly generational so progress is almost undetectable. And what we don’t see is how bad things could be if people were not in DC fighting.

Change from DC comes as a reaction to what is going on outside DC.

From abolition to Jim Crow, dramatic change occurs when women start saying, “No, we aren’t going to put up with that anymore.”
 
Far too many people expect the government to solve our problems.

The Government will never abolish poverty. LBJ’s Great Society is a failure.

George W. Bush, by himself, cannot end abortion. Should the judicial filibuster threat be broken, the Bush can nominate - and have confirmed - judges who may look critically at the fallacy that is Roe v Wade.

Should Roe v Wade be overturned at some time in the future, then the inividual state laws would kick in. Some states allowed abortion and some did not. There would be a situation similar to the death penalty, where some states have it and some do not.

It is not enough to overturn Roe v Wade. A much larger group of people must have a change of mind and heart.
 
Who do the “others” think fights euthanasia? Supports homeschoolers? Wants vouchers for all kids? Expanded the child care tax credit? Seeks to protect marriage? Wants trial lawyers to stop bleeding our medical system dry (remember John Edwards milked the system out of over $45 million on bogus claims OBGYNs were responsible for CP)? Tries to stop the gay lobby from indoctrinating children? Defends the Boy Scouts of America from the ACLU? Wants lower taxes so maybe, just maybe, one parent can stay home with the kids rather than have one paycheck go to taxes and some state institution baby sit the kids.
All good things, but not one of them addresses the needs of “the least of my brothers” … the destitute, the disabled, the dying. My question is how to bring out duties to the poor and sick and oppressed in line with our voting choices.
 
All my points address helping the poor.

Unless you believe another LBJ “Great Society” type program will help anyone if tried again.
 
I understand that some believe that there are moral reasons that outweigh abortion, enabling support of pro-abortion political candidates. While I have heard numerous logical and theological reasons why abortion is the most significant moral issue, similar arguments about other moral issues and why they are more important than abortion have been lacking.

I have seen statements of lives lost in wars and death penalty, but without much development. Pro-life supporters easily countered these statements with the higher volume of deaths by abortions, the innocence and defenselessness of the aborted lives taken vs. other killings, and that neither party is void of such issues as neither party has claimed that they would never go to war nor save convicted murderers and rapists from the death penalty.

When I imagine the unheard screams of unprotected babies being torn apart in their mother’s wombs, I want to help them. These are the most innocent and defenseless! As I have an important choices to make for for future political candidates, I welcome sound arguments from people who truly believe that abortions are wrong, and can demonstrate how other moral issues outweigh the abortion holocaust.

As I see it, the very beginning of moral values stems from the sacredness of life, a life thyat begins in the womb. If we deny them out empathy and compassion, how can we offer it to others without being hypocrits. Feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick, defend the defenseless…all begin with that sacred life in the womb. This seems the 1st principal and foundation for everything else! Thus, as I see it, priority to this issue is necessary.

God bless!

Love & peace in Christ,
Bob
 
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trailblazer:
I understand that some believe that there are moral reasons that outweigh abortion, enabling support of pro-abortion political candidates. While I have heard numerous logical and theological reasons why abortion is the most significant moral issue, similar arguments about other moral issues and why they are more important than abortion have been lacking.

I have seen statements of lives lost in wars and death penalty, but without much development. Pro-life supporters easily countered these statements with the higher volume of deaths by abortions, the innocence and defenselessness of the aborted lives taken vs. other killings, and that neither party is void of such issues as neither party has claimed that they would never go to war nor save convicted murderers and rapists from the death penalty.

When I imagine the unheard screams of unprotected babies being torn apart in their mother’s wombs, I want to help them. These are the most innocent and defenseless! As I have an important choices to make for for future political candidates, I welcome sound arguments from people who truly believe that abortions are wrong, and can demonstrate how other moral issues outweigh the abortion holocaust.

As I see it, the very beginning of moral values stems from the sacredness of life, a life thyat begins in the womb. If we deny them out empathy and compassion, how can we offer it to others without being hypocrits. Feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick, defend the defenseless…all begin with that sacred life in the womb. This seems the 1st principal and foundation for everything else! Thus, as I see it, priority to this issue is necessary.

God bless!

Love & peace in Christ,
Bob
Amen!
 
Again, my point is this isn’t an either/or, or it shouldn’t be. Part of my frustration is that in our political system it has turned into pretty close to that and I’m asking for ideas how to reconcile it. I’m not for abortion, my first post explained my position about that. So while you’re very eloquent on why you consider abortion such an overwhelming issue, you’re preaching to the choir. My question is how to address BOTH pro-life and our responsibility to the poor.

David Paul, no, I don’t see what you outlined as helping the poor or disabled. Maybe you could be a little more detailed? For example, my sister. She graduated high school, married and had two little ones. Her husband had a psychotic break and put both her and the children in danger and refused treatment. They had both worked full time minimum wage jobs, and when they separated she was plunged far below poverty level with two little kids to support and a now mentally ill husband who was no longer working and therefor unable to pay support. My family is low middle class, I was in school, we helped as able, but couldn’t support them. What would your solution for her be? How do those programs keep her and her children with shelter and food and medical care until she gets on her feet?

Whether the Great Society failed or not, here we are and here are the poor and the mentally and physically disabled and the sick and whatever, and we have an affirmative obligation, per Jesus’ own words in the gospels and per numerous church teachings, to try to help these people. There’s no way around that.

And, the situation we are in is one in which the government taxes us and then decides what to do with the money, whether to use it to assist those in need, or not. So, is your answer “government can’t solve the problem” and that’s it? Is that the extent of your efforts and thoughts on the matter? Because that’s what I’m hearing here, folks, and no alternative ideas. Is that what you plan on saying to Jesus some day when He reminds you that what you
did for the least of your brothers, you did for Him?
 
Norbert:

Saying that you will not vote for LAWS making Abortion illegal unless they serve to ELIMINATE ALL ABORTIONS is sort of like saying that you won’t make MURDER illegal unless you can ELIMINATE ALL MURDERS! or, Demanding that Laws against ROBBERY render our society free from the fear of that type of CRIME before you’ll vote to enact or enforce LAWS AGAINST ROBBERY! or, Demanding that the Laws making FRAUD ILLEGAL be able to render SOCIETY FRAUDLESS before you’ll vote fo Laws against FRAUD!

Norbert, what you’re demanding from us is just that unrealistic.

Realism, Common sense and HUMANITY tell you that you have to ENACT THE LAWS ANYWAY! Otherwise, your society can’t fuction or differentiate between right and wrong. You’re demanding that the laws do what 4,000 years of various religions, including 2,000 years of Christianity, have been unable to do, Eliminate MAN’S SINFUL NATURE from the hearts of every single man, woman and child who comes into this country and into this world.

You see Norbert, the Church teaches, NOT that people are basically good, but that people can be REDEEMED by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross.
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norbert:
Good points, all.
If there was a political candidate or party whom I felt would be able to eliminate abortion altogether (and not just make it illegal, but eliminate abortion from actually happening - a big difference) then I would vote for the candidate. I don’t see that ever happening anytime soon, though. Certainly there is no reason to think that George Bush is going to do anything in the next 3 years.
With that said, I vote for the candidate whom I think will work to improve the lives and well-being of all Americans, especially those in need. That usually means voting for the Democrat.
Norbert, wishes and senitmentality aside. it can be demonstrated that the effects of the DEMOCRATIC POLICIES are generally NOT in the public good.

They encourage sex outside of marraige, which leads to “contraceptive failure” and ABORTIONS by the tens of millions (those are human beings being killed in those procedures, and real women being scarred for life). They encourage mothers to have children outside the bounds of marraige. Children raised in those situation have been found to be at higher risk for committing more violent crimes younger, and dropping out of school earlier, than children in 2 parent households where the mother and father are married to each other.

Because of the above, they encourage transgenerational dependency on the federal government.

In the case of Government founded health care, the unintended consequence is the rising cost of healthcare and the doctors are leaving professions in many states where they can no longer make a living, because of the Malpractice Insurance Rates and the Lawsuits.

And so forth and so forth.

BTW, I believe the same about Corporate subsidies and most of the tax breaks corporations get that seem to have nothing to do with producing a product in America for the American market.

A book you may be interested to read is The Death of Common Sense. I don’t remember the author’s name, but the person was prominant in the Truman Administration.

I believe that a LOT of the people who created Democratic Policies and Programs meant well, but loosed from God’s Law, basic Biblical morality, and an essential understanding of HUMAN NATURE, these programs and policies tended to run into the laws OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES and DIMINISHING RETURNS.

What most people tend to forget is that most of the things you listed are what we as Christans are supposed to be be doing in the context of our Churches with those who are less fortunate.

In Matt. 25, the Son of Man doesn’t say, “I was hungry and you helped me fill out a Food Stamp Form!..Homeless, and you helped me complete a Section 8 Application!..Ill and you provided me with a Medi-Cal Office!..In prison, and you filed my appeal!”

Somehow, Liberal Christianity has begun to act as if that really is what Jesus said. Well, that’s not what he said…

To be con. Michael
 
Continued from Previous Post…“Well, that’s not what he said…”

*"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’*

Matt 25:31-40. NAB.

Sorry, but we’re not even supposed to think of getting the Government involved in this area! Norbert, why all the interest in getting the government to be doing what we should be doing, at least with and for fellow Christians?

Norbert, Secular Governments and Civil Laws are supposed to protect LIVES, Liberty and Property (Preamble to the Constitution), but, if I read my Scriptures correctly, it’s the job of Christians and of the Church to do what they can to help pull those who are in the gutter out of the gutter, and to helpp put them on the Right Track.

Norbert, LA County GR has an admin overhead such that 37% of the tax dollars that go into the system actually make it to the people who need the help.

World Vision International (same aprox budget and that’s the one I used to get financial statements for) has a situation where, after the cost of fundraising (less than 12% of the total budget) over 93% of what was left made it to those who needed the money.

Norbert, what do you think acounted for the disparity in efficency between the two sysems, such that you could have WVI take over the Relief responsibilities for LA County and give more money to those who needed for less than 1/2 the money?

Norbert, As you know, many schools are failing to educate their students or to provide them with a safe learing environment. On top of that, these schools are teaching values and princi-ples which are completely at odds with what the parents are trying to teach their children.

Home Schooling has been found to be an extremely effective way to train one’s children in the educational fundamentals while training them in the VALUES and PRINCIPLES the PARENTS WANT. Home Schoolers regulary win all sorts of Scholastic contests.

The DEMOCRATIC PARTY is Admamently opposed to HOME SCHOOLING, VOUCHERS, OR ANYTHING ELSE WHICH WOULD HELP PARENTS TAKE THEIR CHILDREN OUT OF FAILING SCHOOLS.

The Republican Party is for giving these alternatives, or CHOICES, TO PARENTS OF CHILDREN WHO ARE IN FAILING SCHOOLS.

Norbert, which PARTY’S POLICY will improve the lives and well-being of CHILDREN CAUGHT in failing schools?

Norbort, if you’ve changed your mind about helping to ELIMINATE the DEMOCRATIC requirement of an ANTI-RELIGIOUS TEST IN THE FORM OF A FILIBUSTER on all CHRISTIANS, here are the links:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=50594
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=632350&postcount=40

Thank you for any e-mails you might send.

May God richly bless those who act to save His Little Ones. Michael
 
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