Culture wars of unimaginable proportions?

[3DOCTORS]

Speculations welcome . . .

The U.S. being a superpower and such a large country, if things get much more heated and contentious over moral issues here, what’s going to happen? It has been bad enough in smaller countries. Would the country break up into smaller regions? If so, would they band together for military defense?

Or would we who believe in “old-fashioned” morality be martyred or oppressed, condemned to compromise or miserable persecution?

 

[JimG]

Speculations welcome . . .

The U.S. being a superpower and such a large country, if things get much more heated and contentious over moral issues here, what’s going to happen? It has been bad enough in smaller countries. Would the country break up into smaller regions? If so, would they band together for military defense?

Or would we who believe in “old-fashioned” morality be martyred or oppressed, condemned to compromise or miserable persecution?

I can’t predict what will happen, but I think it will be very bad.

We have reached a crisis point in which several trends are converging:

First,the breakdown of the family appears irreversible. A society in which social atomization replaces family life ends in chaos.

Secondly, the debts of many nations have become unsustainable—from Europe to the USA. It will reach a crisis point resulting in economic chaos. In western nations wherein peoples have become accustomed to government benefits, the results will not be pretty when those benefits can no longer be provided.

Finally, moral structures are breaking down as traditional religion is rejected and excoriated. We are becoming, to quote the title of a recent book, “A Nation of Heretics.”

Converging trends like that do not bode well.

 

[IrishRush]

I can’t predict what will happen, but I think it will be very bad.

We have reached a crisis point in which several trends are converging:

First,the breakdown of the family appears irreversible. A society in which social atomization replaces family life ends in chaos.

Secondly, the debts of many nations have become unsustainable—from Europe to the USA. It will reach a crisis point resulting in economic chaos. In western nations wherein peoples have become accustomed to government benefits, the results will not be pretty when those benefits can no longer be provided.

Finally, moral structures are breaking down as traditional religion is rejected and excoriated. We are becoming, to quote the title of a recent book, “A Nation of Heretics.”

Converging trends like that do not bode well.

This sounds like a review / synopsis of one of those post apocalyptic movies or books.

 

[JimG]

This sounds like a review / synopsis of one of those post apocalyptic movies or books.

Yes, it does. I hope that I’m being way too pessimistic, but things don’t look good, for the culture, for marriage, for the economy, for religion.

 

[GratefulFred]

Read Romans 18 to 32.

Was St Paul writing about TODAY?

We, who still believe to some degree, need to pray more sincerely and warn our family and friends. It is up to them to reverse course.

We also need to vote our Catholic conscience and not give in to our secular relativist tendencies just to get along with those who refuse to believe enough to try to live by God’s rules.

We cannot not stop sin, but we should not vote approval of sin. If we lose the vote in a pluralistic society, so be it. But we must vote our Catholic conscience.

 

[aicirt]

Yes, it does. I hope that I’m being way too pessimistic, but things don’t look good, for the culture, for marriage, for the economy, for religion.

I know how you feel but when you think about it when were times absolutely good? Before or after the Civil War? Before or after WWI? Before or after WWII? We’ve been through wars, depressions, prejudice, salvery, riots etc. Same but new cast of characters.

 

[Hokomai]

Finally, moral structures are breaking down as traditional religion is rejected and excoriated. We are becoming, to quote the title of a recent book, “A Nation of Heretics.”

Umm - to Catholics, has the US not always been a nation of heretics?

 

[St_Francis]

Umm - to Catholics, has the US not always been a nation of heretics?

I’ve heard this

 

[JimG]

Umm - to Catholics, has the US not always been a nation of heretics?

Actually, the book I’m reading is not written from a Catholic standpoint. And now that I look at it I see that I got the title wrong! It’s “Bad Religion” subtitled “How We Became a Nation of Heretics,” written by Ross Douthat, an op ed columnist for the NY Times.

I haven’t finished it yet, but he makes the same point–that from the beginning we’ve been a nation of heretics, people trying to escape one established religion or another. But what’s new is that heretics used to have something from which to be heretics, some established base from which they vary. Today’s religious trends are simply to individualism and relativism, with no reference even to a past with which they might disagree. It’s sort of an atomization of religious belief or unbelief.

At least that’s what I glean so far, I still have about 2/3 of the way to go.

 

[JimG]

I know how you feel but when you think about it when were times absolutely good? Before or after the Civil War? Before or after WWI? Before or after WWII? We’ve been through wars, depressions, prejudice, salvery, riots etc. Same but new cast of characters.

Oh yes, there have always been bad times, some very hard times indeed. To some extent, we’ve been living in a sorth of good times bubble since WW-II. But things can change quickly.

I’ve been trying to read Carle Zimmerman’s “Family and Civilization.” It’s not an easy read, especially for all of us who have now had our attention spans truncated by the Internet Age. And unless one has a real interest in the history of families and civilization of the past several millenia, one can lose interest quickly.

But if nothing else, the final chapter, Ch. 16, -The Future of Family and Civilization- is worth reading. In it he sums up his conclusions and predictions. Despite all the bad times, historically, he discerns only three particular eras of crisis in family structure resulting in civilzational breakdown: during one period in ancient Greece, another period in Rome, and the current period beginning in the latter half of the 20th century, altho he traces the beginnins back several centuries.

He’s an academic, not a doomsayer. Still his conclusions, first written in 1957, can already be seen to be working themselves out.

And the financial situation in most western nations at present is unique. Greece, Spain, Italy, teeter on the edge of national bankruptcy. So does the U.S. There is really no reasonable scenario in which this can play out without very bad consequences.

As far as morals go. Well, compare 1957 to today.

A few years ago, Morris Berman wrote a book “Twilight of American Culture” from an entirely different perspective–he doesn’t even appear to be Christian–at least from reading the book, but his conclusions are remarkably similar. He seems to think that we might survive by means of a new monastic age, (though for him that doesn’t mean religion.)

 

[faithsmind]

Or would we who believe in “old-fashioned” morality be martyred or oppressed, condemned to compromise or miserable persecution?

I think we already know that there is a deadly undercurrent of persecution in play right now. This undercurrent is what makes it so difficult to overcome. It’s this unspoken fear we all have, that to speak out on any type of eternal truth is considered extremely socially unacceptable. Yes, it’s true that this has always been the plight of the Christians. But I do believe today it is closer to the extremeties of the early Christian’s persecutions, and is steadily headed that direction. I think the only way we can overcome it is to start standing up and getting the courage to speak out to friends and aquaintences about our joys in our life. I also believe that rational argument on doctrine is not the way to reach the truth with non-believers, since they put up emotional mental blocks. I think the best way to fight the battle is to directly address with them on their levels of happiness, and to tell them about our joy in finding dignity as a child of Christ and His merciful way of life.

I also believe these persecutions are like fire to gold. God has a plan, and it is good. All things work together for good. Through Christ.

 

[aicirt]

There is a nation wide call, STAND-UP for REIGIOUS FREEDOM, scheduled for noon, this Friday, 6/8/12, in 150 cities. Our priest discussed it from the pulpit yesterday and the people applauded. And so it begins. I was almost moved to tears.

I posted on another board asking all to wear medals because we need to see each other as does the secular world. We need to encourage people that we are free, we are not invisible and we will not be marginalized.

FOR THE GREATER GLORY is a movie regarding the religious persecution in Mexio of the 1920s. It opened June 1. It is sponsored by the Knights of Columbus which has a part in its history. I’m curious as to why this should be out now considering what is happening in the US. Coincidence? I’ve encouraged many to go see it. Oddly enough, although it has received good reviews and been discussed on EWTN, it has not been promoted in the church bulletin. We don’t have that many good Catholic movies like we did in the 40s and 50s. Why not support one when it comes out?

I think more Catholics need to volunteer in their parishes to teach religion to kids who do not go to parochial schools, to adults interested in becoming more knowledgeable, and to those interested in converting. I think we have an untapped resource sitting in our pews.

Many of my friends have the same “feeling” we apparently have re. culture wars of unimaginable proportions. We need to discuss our families’ histories with our children and grandchildren so they are aware of things that have happened before.

 

[St_Francis]

It seems like apocolyptic scenarios appeal to people, but it seems like unless there is an outright war, civilizations die slowly rather than all at once. I can see world power shifting slowly out of US hands… a gradual crumbling of structures between places… but we are all mixed in so much that I don’t think we’ll have an outright war or anything. It’s not like when we had the Civil War and the sides were geographically in totally different places.

 

[JimG]

It seems like apocolyptic scenarios appeal to people, but it seems like unless there is an outright war, civilizations die slowly rather than all at once. I can see world power shifting slowly out of US hands… a gradual crumbling of structures between places… but we are all mixed in so much that I don’t think we’ll have an outright war or anything. It’s not like when we had the Civil War and the sides were geographically in totally different places.

It’s true that civilizations tend to die slowly, but there can be a rather short–in the historical sense–final paroxysm of collapse. A person living during the collapase of the Roman empire might have experienced it within the span of his lifetime.

For that matter, talk to someone alive today who was a teenager in, say 1960. The social changes experienced over that historically short time period have been remarkable.

Markets of course, can collapse very quickly. In 2008 the DJIA dropped 1000 points in a day. A sudden loss off confidence and nobody on the buying side could cause an even worse drop. A sovereign default by a European nation or by the U.S. could have similar results.

 

[BobCatholic]

Or would we who believe in “old-fashioned” morality be martyred or oppressed, condemned to compromise or miserable persecution?

Yes. Resistance is futile, the Borg Collective has been assimilating for 40 years so far.

 

[edwest2]

The weapons for Catholics are prayer and truth. The Church knows what’s going on. Pope Benedict has spoken on the Dictatorship of Relativism and Radical Individualism.

As far as debt goes, it’s just a game. President Obama warned earlier this year that we will see further market “Corrections” - downturns - as investors cash in to refill their coffers from the Wall Street manufactured, global draining of cash. Housing prices going up forever? It was fraud. Those responsible for valuing homes just decided to add a few bucks here and there for no good reason except to artificially inflate values. Then cut them up and put the pieces into packages called Credit Default Swaps.

My good acquaintance in Germany told me what was going on. The best solution for Greece may be to just kick it out of the European Union. They spent the money they had and overextended themselves, and knew it. They can go back to their original currency and remain a trading partner with limits. Until they get their act together.

There are Catholics who are not heretics, but they seek no fame or glory for themselves. Those who speak up publicly are immediately denounced of course, but that won’t change, at least for the short term.

Pray and put your trust and hope in God.

Peace,
Ed

 

[3DOCTORS]

One thing that has always bugged me - the Civil Rights Movement took place, and we got rid of stupid things like segregation; there seemed to be hope for “diversity” in its real and good sense. I go to the gym with people of all backgrounds, I watch kids playing together and I think, wow, how far we’ve come.

I know things aren’t always perfect; there are still misunderstandings between people of different races/ethnicities in this culture, but I don’t think people with common sense question that racial/ethnic prejudices are wrong and just plain stupid.

And I never had difficulty with gay or lesbian friends; we would agree to disagree if necessary; it was perhaps a bit more tricky with vehement pro-choice friends but still civility could be maintained and I felt like I could speak my beliefs. Or the issue of birth control.

But nowadays, I feel like if I say anything against the liberal point of view on these issues, people are going to lump me in with the redneck racists of old. Or say that I don’t care about women - which is pretty darn ironic, considering that I am one.