Cup not Chalice

[Antoinette_W]

In the Bible “cup” has meaning:
Luk 22:42
saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”
Jhn 18:11
So Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”
1Co 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?
1Co 10:21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
1Co 11:25 NASB
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

There are more “cup” verses in Psalms and Prophets that carry deep that meaning.

Why are we using the word chalice instead of cup in the offertory? -It does not impart the same meaning at all!

 

[Nelka]

 

[Antoinette_W]

That is not in the bible is it?
If yes, could I have the scripture reference?
But if not, you are not answering my question.

 

[neweggs]

In the Bible “cup” has meaning:
Luk 22:42
saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”
Jhn 18:11
So Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”
1Co 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?
1Co 10:21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
1Co 11:25 NASB
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

There are more “cup” verses in Psalms and Prophets that carry deep that meaning.

Why are we using the word chalice instead of cup in the offertory? -It does not impart the same meaning at all!

I have here both the word cup or Chalice use,at times when Jesus use it at the Last Supper,you see Jesus holding a Chalice at other times in Pictures it was a bowl,no matter what,it represent the Blood of Jesus. God Bless

 

[porthos11]

“Cup” and “chalice” are synonyms. They mean exactly the same thing.

The Greek has “poterion”, which is, quite literally, a drinking cup. Nothing more, nothing less.

In St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, he used the word “calix” to translate “poterion.” Even when referring to a regular drinking cup, Jerome used “calix.” This is where we get the word “chalice” from.

From a purely literary standpoint, a chalice is simply a cup, only translated via the Vulgate.

 

[pianistclare]

“Cup” and “chalice” are synonyms. They mean exactly the same thing.

The Greek has “poterion”, which is, quite literally, a drinking cup. Nothing more, nothing less.

In St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, he used the word “calix” to translate “poterion.” Even when referring to a regular drinking cup, Jerome used “calix.” This is where we get the word “chalice” from.

From a purely literary standpoint, a chalice is simply a cup, only translated via the Vulgate.

This^^.
Plus, a chalice is more a word for liturgy. A ceremonial term, if you will. At the time of Christ, there church and all it’s liturgical language really was not formed yet.
Cup is what they spoke of during the Passover meal.
In any case, as Porthos says, its meaning is identical.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Technically, neither word is used during the offertory.

Furthermore, it does not have to match scripture identically. The words mean essentially the same thing, it is a matter of translation that is used, and this in and of it’s self does not change the meaning.

 

[felsguy]

Liturgiam authenticam, the new instruction on translation issued in 2001 by the Congregation for Divine Worship, called for a strict literal translation of the Latin text and a more elevated tone. Perhaps in this instance the desire for a more elevated tone outweighed the need for a strict literal translation.

 

[neweggs]

This^^.
Plus, a chalice is more a word for liturgy. A ceremonial term, if you will. At the time of Christ, there church and all it’s liturgical language really was not formed yet.
Cup is what they spoke of during the Passover meal.
In any case, as Porthos says, its meaning is identical.

So right,it was call a cup in Jesus time

 

[phil19034]

So right,it was call a cup in Jesus time

they didn’t speak english in Jesus’ time.

This is simply an issue of translations.

When I attended a Jewish Passover, they used what we would call a Chalice, not a cup.

In English, a chalice has a long stem, similar to a wine glass. A cup has no stem, or a very short one that cannot be used as a handle.

The Roman Mass is written in Latin. Has someone has said, we use Chalice in the liturgy because it is the exact translation from the Latin into English.

God Bless

 

[porthos11]

So right,it was call a cup in Jesus time

No, it would have been called a poterion (for the Greek speakers) and likely kasa for the Aramaic speakers, and probably a calix among the Romans (or maybe a cuppa, but calix is probably more likely).

No one would have called it a cup, as English had not taken on its present vocabulary at the time.

The question is how do we translate “poterion” into modern English? And the answer is, it depends. If you go directly from the Greek, “cup” is the more likely. If you go via the Latin, then you can get “chalice” to refer to the same thing.

 

[Antoinette_W]

In the tenach (OT) cup is translated from:
כּוֹס kôwç, koce; from an unused root meaning to hold together; a cup (as a container), often figuratively, a lot (as if a potion);

In the NT cup is translated from:
ποτήριον Transliteration potērion
a cup, a drinking vessel
metaph. one’s lot or experience, whether joyous or adverse, divine appointments, whether favourable or unfavourable, are likened to a cup which God presents one to drink: so of prosperity and adversity

The word chalice is not used in the bible, so why do we use it.
Are Jesus’s Words not good enough for us?

The paintings you speak of are not truth, Jesus was at a seder when He committed to being the sacrifice, They used the vessels of that peroid and their culture -not Roman.

Rom 11:18 RSV
do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you.

 

[porthos11]

In the tenach (OT) cup is translated from:
כּוֹס kôwç, koce; from an unused root meaning to hold together; a cup (as a container), often figuratively, a lot (as if a potion);

In the NT cup is translated from:
ποτήριον Transliteration potērion
a cup, a drinking vessel
metaph. one’s lot or experience, whether joyous or adverse, divine appointments, whether favourable or unfavourable, are likened to a cup which God presents one to drink: so of prosperity and adversity

The word chalice is not used in the bible, so why do we use it.
Are Jesus’s Words not good enough for us?

The paintings you speak of are not truth, Jesus was at a seder when He committed to being the sacrifice, They used the vessels of that peroid and their culture -not Roman.

Rom 11:18 RSV
do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you.

What do you mean “the Bible”? The Bible is not written in English, and everything you read in an English Bible is a translation.

We’ve already explained it. Cup and chalice are synonyms.

It’s simply a question of translation. “Cup” doesn’t appear in the Bible either. The word is “poterion” in Greek. How you translate “poterion” is an editorial decision, cup or chalice. It means the same thing.

And besides, if by “the Bible” you mean the English translation you’re reading, that’s not “THE Bible”, but a translation. I could easily cite 1st Corinthians 11 in the Douay-Rheims or the Revised Standard Version Second Catholic Edition and show you in all its glory the word “chalice” where the word “poterion” appears. Jesus never said “cup” because he didn’t speak English.

A cup is a poterion.
A chalice is a poterion.

There is absolutely no difference between the two so this is nothing to fuss over.

drbo.org/chapter/53011.htm

 

[pianistclare]

Is it the man made vessel that redeems us, or the blood offered within?

 

[Wesrock]

Translation is not always a one-for-one substitution.

Let’s also remember that Jesus is using liturgical language here, likening the vessel he was using to those used in offering at the Temple, using Temple/priestly language in Jesus’ Farewell Discourse in the gospel of John.

 

[pianistclare]

Translation is not always a one-for-one substitution.

Let’s also remember that Jesus is using liturgical language here, likening the vessel he was using to those used in offering at the Temple, using Temple/priestly language in Jesus’ Farewell Discourse in the gospel of John.

Excellent point.

 

[porthos11]

Translation is not always a one-for-one substitution.

Let’s also remember that Jesus is using liturgical language here, likening the vessel he was using to those used in offering at the Temple, using Temple/priestly language in Jesus’ Farewell Discourse in the gospel of John.

Correct, but I would also defend the other term using the exact same principles.

“Cup” is perfectly acceptable as is chalice.

Heck, if a priest at consecration says “This is the cup of my blood” by mistake, all I’d say is, meh, big deal.

But the argument that “the Bible doesn’t say cup” is a bit out there, because the Bible was not written in English, so “the Bible does not say” is a strange argument. The only question is, is it a proper translation.

The answer is yes, for both “cup” and “chalice”. And especially at Mass because Mass is written in Latin, so it’s only natural that the word “chalice” be used to translate “calix”.

 

[Bookcat]

“Cup” and “chalice” are synonyms. They mean exactly the same thing.

The Greek has “poterion”, which is, quite literally, a drinking cup. Nothing more, nothing less.

In St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, he used the word “calix” to translate “poterion.” Even when referring to a regular drinking cup, Jerome used “calix.” This is where we get the word “chalice” from.

From a purely literary standpoint, a chalice is simply a cup, only translated via the Vulgate.

Thanks…and for the detail.

 

[Usige]

“Cup” and “chalice” are synonyms. They mean exactly the same thing.

The Greek has “poterion”, which is, quite literally, a drinking cup. Nothing more, nothing less.

In St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, he used the word “calix” to translate “poterion.” Even when referring to a regular drinking cup, Jerome used “calix.” This is where we get the word “chalice” from.

From a purely literary standpoint, a chalice is simply a cup, only translated via the Vulgate.

Yep. We need to be careful to recognize that Christ never used the word “cup” or “chalice” (or likely poterion either) and to accept that English translations are often translations of translations of translations. Even different translations into English could use different words from the same source document. Given that we have to be careful of using an English (or German, French, Japanese, et cetera) translation to prove or disprove what word is correct.

 

[Todd977]

Since the Latin word calix, from which our English *chalice *comes, means cup, especially a cup for wine, and since it was wine in Jesus’ cup at the Last Supper, “the fruit of the vine,” one could argue that *chalice *is a better translation than the generic cup at the offertory at Mass.