Curative approach to the Marital Embrace?

[Oh_Charlotte]

Well I am not married but here I am thinking about this. I was married, for many years - about 19 I think. And have been divorced and chaste for 7. Chaste while married, too. Not only as a wife should be, but that part was pretty much missing which is not uncommon with a Narcissist who typically “switches” immediately after marriage (or what ever makes him sure he’s got you now). So most of my life I disciplined myself to not even think about sex. And as a Protestant, to be really holy was to sort of pretend you don’t have a body; you are all in your head, sort of. And there was no affection, either, in my marriage. Not that I did not attempt to offer it but it was not possible.

Well, now I am thinking of marriage, and I am thinking about the marital embrace now, which has me sometimes worried that maybe my thoughts aren’t chaste as I just posted on that worry. I think I will call Catholic Answers with that one.

The man I love is normal, not a Narcissist, and is in fact a devout Catholic, and I am very drawn to him and pretty much melt at his slightest touch. I cannot wait till we can marry and express affection with touch. And I would want this great love of each other’s touch to last forever in the marriage, not just in the beginning. However I accepted that my desire is an impossible one.

Well I stumbled on this article that gives me the idea that its not impossible. I read it for a friend, wanting to give genuine feedback, and I worked my way through the beginning where the author wrote a bit of how he felt about his own earlier sexual experiences, and some sort of New Age or other spirituality influences his writing, and he also writes of results of studies and research on sex. None of that appealed to me. Then he got to the point of how this different kind - a strange idea, sex with purposely no orgasm - really made him and his wife fall tenderly in love with each other. They are so happy and fulfilled, and they make time for this bonding kind of sex for at least an hour a day! Yes.

I am probably past childbearing now. Of course there is that slight possibility. I did not think the Lord would bring anyone so soon, and this is a little sooner than I thought He would bring me someone so I always wondered if the marital embrace would be a part of marriage for me because what is the point if you are not going to have children? Then more learning revealed the Church declares two purposes; the other is unitive. That never made any sense to me until the man I now love held my hand. Okay, now I understand how sex can be unitive!

Well what this man writes of in this article, this is truly, truly unitive! You can see, when you read it through, how this experience has blessed him and his wife.

The promotion of this “bonding sex” - called Karezza, after the Italian “carezza” which is caress, is not coming from a Christian base, I searched it in the forum here - no one has mentioned it! Btu reading of it - I am struck by how Catholic it is. Because it increases love and unifies the marriage by strengthening the bond.

You can look around the website more, too. I think there is how-to, also testimonies. I read some. However, I think I should put it aside for now, as I have a wait for marriage yet. But it gives me great how to know about this lovely way of enjoying each other forever.

But I want to mention it here also to say, reading around on it, it seems to be a cure for a lot of sexual problems in marriage! If you read what’s written you will see why. But its certainly a cure for a disinterested wife. Its also a cure for people who have had porn addictions. And then other addictions, drug and alcohol and tobacco and food. Yes, they all seem connected, it seems, and this between a man and a wife does seem to be a cure.

The ones promoting Karezza are not Christian, but isn’t that just like God to provide a way for healing for sex-addicts and porn addicts for those who most need it?

But obviously Christians have get these adictions too. I met a poor wife on a retreat, she and her husband have young children, and he is a Sunday Schol techer at their chruch and otherwise quite active, and turns out he has had a heavy porn addiction many years. It was devastating for them. They were getting help, she had hope in God, but I wish now I had known of Karezza; I 'd have told her…

When I read the article I am linking, I skip over the parts I am not into, like that other spirituality, like his quest for good sex, and look for the grain of truth in what he is saying. Unexpectedly, I found a lot of truth! I wonder what others think of this, and if they have ever heard of it?

Below is the link to the article I read, and you can read more on the website. Its not Christian, so go at your own risk, and it is about sex, so if you think you would best avoid it, then do…
reuniting.info/download/pdf/HowSexRuined.pdf

 

[twoangels]

Well I am not married but here I am thinking about this. I was married, for many years - about 19 I think. And have been divorced and chaste for 7. Chaste while married, too.

I get the impression that you think chaste means sexually inactive. Chastity actually refers to respecting God’s design for marriage and sex. It involves sexual inactivity for the unmarried person, but for married couples it means no contraceptives and respecting your spouse’s conjugal rights. It also means seeking to not use each other in the sexual act. If a spouse is uncomfortable with something, you don’t do it. You keep your focus on loving each other through the sexual act. Your spouse is never to become a sexual object to you.

Not only as a wife should be, but that part was pretty much missing which is not uncommon with a Narcissist who typically “switches” immediately after marriage (or what ever makes him sure he’s got you now). So most of my life I disciplined myself to not even think about sex. And as a Protestant, to be really holy was to sort of pretend you don’t have a body; you are all in your head, sort of.

Dualism is so tempting, isn’t it?

Well, now I am thinking of marriage, and I am thinking about the marital embrace now, which has me sometimes worried that maybe my thoughts aren’t chaste as I just posted on that worry. I think I will call Catholic Answers with that one.

Sex isn’t evil, sexual desire isn’t bad. Lust is not sexual desire. Lust is the effects of concupiscence on our sexual desire.

The man I love is normal, not a Narcissist, and is in fact a devout Catholic, and I am very drawn to him and pretty much melt at his slightest touch. I cannot wait till we can marry and express affection with touch.

Um, you need to talk to a priest and find out if you are eligible to marry. If you’re not Catholic, it is likely you will need an annullment to be found eligible to marry. That’s a whole other topic though.

In regards to “bonding sex” the Church teaches that sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself isolated from BOTH its unitive and procreative purposes. “Mating sex”, as the article calls it, actually does have the unitive potential the man is claiming is not there. He is blaming neuro-chemicals, hormones and auras for things we, Catholics, considered caused by concupsicence. His solution is to deny yourself an orgasm. Our solution is to strive to avoid sin and to live a sacramental life filling our souls with God’s Divine life and love which we call scantifying grace. This is not merely about feeling good, but about actually becoming holy people, learning to forget ourselves and to love others more and more closely to the manner in which God loves the world.

This does not mean that it is not work. It involves sacrifice and suffering, but it also provides the consolation. Its not merely avoiding sin. It is finding a strength in Christ, understanding that He is the answer and that we must be receptive to Him. Letting go of sin is difficult because we are like cups waiting to be filled with God’s grace. But we are born empty and wanting to be filled up with something, we fill ourselves with sin which fails to ever satsify us. Only God can satisfy us. The problem is to make room for God, we must empty the sin out of us. That means being empty for a time period, and at times we lack the faith or get so prideful that we do not seek the grace. We may simply focus on avoiding sin, but may fail to receive the sacraments frequently. We may remain attached to sins because of our doubts that there actually will be something to satisfy us aside from the sin. We think of merely emptying ourselves and have to act in faith that Christ is indeed there. As we grow in faith, we learn to take those leaps of faith.

But it requires sacrifice. It requires living a life that others would look at and say “Why on earth would you give up so much? How can you possibly be happy that way?” And many who see what sacrifices they would have to make while wanting to accept Christ find that they can’t and turn away from it.

God bless you in your journey. I urge you to continue learning about the Catholic faith. It sounds to me that you have a lot of misperceptions.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Thanks for responding so thoroughly, Twoangels!

I am not ignorant about the faith. I read quite voluminously before the leap to Catholicism, the Pearl of Great Price. I can’t spit it all back out beautifully, but its in there. It helps me discern new information.

I get the impression that you think chaste means sexually inactive…

Well my marriage was far from normal. Yet I considered myself married (even though priests were all very swift to say, “That’s not a marriage”. I could not accept that; I had made a vow before God - I was just living with “for worse”.

So in my not-normal situation, being chaste meant not even thinking about sex.

Chastity…for married couples it means …respecting your spouse’s conjugal rights…[cut for length] loving each other through the sexual act…

None of this applies to the long “marriage” I had. Sounds lovely though.

Dualism is so tempting, isn’t it?

Can you explain please? I do not agree “tempting”, if you are refer being holy = pretending you don’t have a body. It was not a temptation, it was a teaching. I was not exposed to any other truth. When I was exposed to truth, I embraced it.

Sex isn’t evil, sexual desire isn’t bad. Lust is not sexual desire. Lust is the effects of concupiscence on our sexual desire.

This little statement is extremely helpful!! I think I got the idea from theology of the body that sexual desire is not bad. I am glad to hear you say, lust is not sexual desire. I thought there had to be a distinction!

Sexual desire was awakened by a touch (which was not intended to be unchaste; he took my hands in prayer). It really disconcerted me. It had to be wrong, yet it felt somehow right. However, I felt the love of Jesus very strong at Mass when I worried about this, and He seemed to be telling me it was okay, that He was not displeased with me. So i will never forget that.

Um, you need to talk to a priest and find out if you are eligible to marry… .

Thanks, I touched on that in another thread. Yes, I am on that.

In regards to “bonding sex” the Church teaches that sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself isolated from BOTH its unitive and procreative purposes.

So sex is not allowed to be used as an expression of love, as comfort for your spouse? Which would be unitive? So you must bring every sexual act to the husbands orgasm?

It sounds like you are saying you cannot touch your spouse in a way that is sexually pleasurable to them unless you plan to continue all the way though to a possible conception??

So EVERY act has to be BOTH unitive and procreative?

It sounds too rigid to be a teaching of Holy Mother Church.

It seems to me this kind of bonding sex would be wrong only if it was used with the intention of preventing conception. But if the intention was to be unitive, and one was not closed to conception particularly when the wife is fertile (as Catholic couples using NFP would know), then how could it be wrong?

Also, for couples practicing NFP, suppose because of great psychological stress in their lives they both decided that for a time, several months a year or two, they would abstain from sex on fertile days, in order not to conceive. Well, what if instead of that method of birth control, during that time they practiced this bonding sex. It sounds to me they might get out of stress faster, and feel healthy and whole sooner, and ready to conceive sooner! And be better parents to their other children meantime, because they were out of stress. Unitve for the whole family!

“Mating sex”, as the article calls it, actually does have the unitive potential the man is claiming is not there. He is blaming neuro-chemicals, hormones and auras for things we, Catholics, considered caused by concupsicence.

Well I ignore the aura stuff etc. The neuro-chemical and hormone stuff is in fact a fact - he is talking about realities. The oxytocin upload in bonding sex is real. You are a mom, I assume you have nursed, you know. You feel good and happy and content and peaceful all the time if the oxytocin levels are allowed to keep flowing. That mating sex drains a man, that’s undeniable too. Sports coaches used to warn their players not to waste themselves, to save their strength. (Now its too-countercoulture to discourage any kind of sex…)

His solution is to deny yourself an orgasm. Our solution is to strive to avoid sin and to live a sacramental life filling our souls with God’s Divine life and love which we call scantifying grace…

The idea does sound crazy, however, it sounds loving if you read the whole article. I look at the fruit of what he is telling of - there seems to be a lot of good fruit. A visibly united couple, well-bonded, exclusive. Healing for couples who have suffered from the husband’s pornography, promiscuity, or masturbation habits. A lot of good fruit!

… It involves sacrifice and suffering,… …[cut this becasue post is too long] … we learn to take those leaps of faith.

This is all true. Frequent reception of the Sacraments was my Everything that got me through hard and lonely times of my life.Soon after I converted my life came apart in every way. God certainly knew this was coming. I was forced me to rely on God alone, and to make many varied acts of faith, all of which He answered, often miraculously, leaving no doubt of His very real presence in my day-to-day life. Losing the things that gave me esteem in the world’s eyes was graciously mitigated by the Litany of Humility. Yes, all the very best things in my life have been gifts through adversity God granted me.

 

[grandfather]

There could be some medical risks to the male in becoming sexually aroused, initiating intercourse and terminating the activity before biologically concluded on a regular basis. I am not a physician, but suspect this is not a healthy practice.

 

[twoangels]

So sex is not allowed to be used as an expression of love, as comfort for your spouse? Which would be unitive? So you must bring every sexual act to the husbands orgasm?

It sounds like you are saying you cannot touch your spouse in a way that is sexually pleasurable to them unless you plan to continue all the way though to a possible conception??

So EVERY act has to be BOTH unitive and procreative?

It sounds too rigid to be a teaching of Holy Mother Church.

Hmm…I think you’re jumping from one extreme to the other in your understanding. The article you posted mentioned intentionally rejecting the climax and working against the natural end of the procreative functions. We cannot thwart that function. I have no idea how it is for other couples, but in my limited experience (I’m just nearing my 2nd anniversary), sometimes it just doesn’t happen.

And as for planning to go all the way, no again I think you’re following an either/or fallacy. You have to let the act be what it naturally is rather than diverting it away from its natural purposes. This can get a bit confusing with NFP as you’re choosing to abstain, when it comes down to it, thwarting the procreative function is disordered and unloving. Part of the unitive aspect is the complete volunerability to the procreative aspect. It is total acceptance of the other and total self surrender. Rejecting the procreative aspect lessons the unitive aspect because there is an aspect of rejection there.

Also, for couples practicing NFP, suppose because of great psychological stress in their lives they both decided that for a time, several months a year or two, they would abstain from sex on fertile days, in order not to conceive. Well, what if instead of that method of birth control, during that time they practiced this bonding sex. It sounds to me they might get out of stress faster, and feel healthy and whole sooner, and ready to conceive sooner! And be better parents to their other children meantime, because they were out of stress. Unitve for the whole family!

NFP forces couples to understand that their decision is not about having a baby. Babies are gifts from God. Their decision is whether to abstain from sex out of love for each other for the welfare of their family. Sex is an important aspect of the marriage, though, and thus without the right motives, the abstainence no longer becomes an act of love, but an act of rejection. Engaging in sex without a climax or pulling out before the climax or substituting other behaviors to acheive a climax outside of intercourse are ways to continually reject the nature of sex, while trying to reject just a little less of each other. But God does not want us to reject each other at all. That’s why couples have to discern their motivations for spacing and limiting children, and why even while abstaining while spacing, each and every act must be both physically opened to children with a mental disposition of understanding that even an unplanned pregnancy is a gift from God.

The neuro-chemical and hormone stuff is in fact a fact - he is talking about realities. The oxytocin upload in bonding sex is real. You are a mom, I assume you have nursed, you know. You feel good and happy and content and peaceful all the time if the oxytocin levels are allowed to keep flowing. That mating sex drains a man, that’s undeniable too. Sports coaches used to warn their players not to waste themselves, to save their strength. (Now its too-countercoulture to discourage any kind of sex…)

It sounds like pseudo-science to me. My husband most certainly does not feel depressed after we are intimate. Its not either/or. I think the depression would come out of focusing on your own physical pleasure as you pursue sex for your own lusts. That would be depressing afterward. Sex should be pursued for the unity, but there is nothing about rejecting the climax that somehow enables you better to unify.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Two angels, it sounds like you have a very good understanding of Natural Family Planning. Thank you for explaining it. I agree that it is an ideal approach to marital intimacy for a Catholic couple who is endeavoring to be open to new life, yet has needs to space the children at times. It truly is the ideal route to do that with. And for a normal couple, it also facilitates communication and understanding. I have always been impressed with the statistics that couples practicing this have an extremely low divorce rate. You and your husband are both blessed to be on board with NFP together! It couldn’t be a better way to start your marriage!

 

[grandfather]

I have been thinking about your sad story and the circumstances you revealed about your failed marriage or attempted marriage. There are many couples in our time who end up in one degree of misery and tragedy or another for many different reasons.

My story is the opposite. My wife and I have been united in Holy Matrimony for 37 years. We have been through life together, the ups and downs, trials, torments and joys, having and raising children, seeing them married and start families. Now that life is not as busy as it was for many years and has quieted down we spend most of our time together in peace. The love we began with has multiplied over the years. I love being with her, listening to her voice, watching her go about her activities in and out of the house. She makes me happy. We live in peace and mutual love that is magnified the longer we are married. Marriage can and does lead to happiness for some people and misery and trauma for others. I can only attribute the enduring love of our marriage to grace. We both came to it broken fallen individuals. Our marital relations were normal and always open to life and murually fulfilling.

As I read about what was a long term traumatic emotionally painful and damaging experience that you went through it is somewhat understandable that anyone in your shoes, although attracted to marriage with another seemingly kind person, nevertheless have some concerns or apprehensions about repeating the pain.

The goods of marriage are sex. Someone who has not had a fulfilling marriage with normal sexual expression would naturally wonder if fulfimment or satisfaction are achievable in an abnormal way.

What you are comtemplating regarding marital relations is certainly an abnormal approach to sexual intercourse. It is understandable that in looking for fulfillment where you were unable to find it compounded by the painful baggage and scars you are bringing to a new union you might be confused on how to approach the topic.

It is also understandable that you would want to make this aspect of your life to be as beautiful an expression of love as possible and look into ways to make that happen.

If you hope to have a good marriage the best approach is to do what is natural, not unnatural. Do what is according to your nature and the nature of sex. That is the whole approach of the Church’s moral instruction to couples.

Frankly, having been happily married a long time and now looking back on the sexual component of marriage, the ideas you are interested in are not simply odd, but bizarre. People for some reason are attracted to all kinds of wierd ideas regarding sex, how to make it better, more exciting, whatever.

If you marry this man why don’t you be open to natural relations before you decide that they will be less fulfilling or complete than what is very abnormal?

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Dear Grandfather, What kind thoughts you shared! They were like a balm for remembrance of hurt that I didn’t realize still lingers, or at least enough to make me wary about the future. You made me realize that fear was motivating me, because even though I am healed, the healing minister reminded me I will have to be aware of old habits… I realize now that I have been a bit afraid that this unexpected happiness will be snatched away, and yes, that things won’t turn out like they seem to be headed, as that would be a repeat of before…

I spent all of my marriage trying to make what you and your wife had. I focused only on my own need for improvement since I could not control my husband’s. I asked advice constantly for making my marriage better (and often got what the Evangelical advice that in fact made my situation worse: the “Umbrella Theory”). I went to workshops and Bible conferences and read every book on marriage and personality and communication trying to find the missing piece - everything but anything on abuse - which was the topic of the book I read, at the end, which I think Our Lady led me to a year after my conversion, which finally made everything make devastating sense. I think that is when the PTSD kicked in heavily (which is now completely healed, praise God!).

My current very holy priest who I went to for advice when I faced divorce told me that i had been trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Also, I felt by cooperating with the divorce as my good lawyer advised, I was betraying God, as I had waited all these years for Him to do a miracle - was I now going to give up on God? Father said that though God does miracles, He never tells us to expect one (a false teaching I had been taught) and that furthermore, God rarely, if ever, violates the will (i.e., my ex thought he was fine and did not need changing)…

How wise a priest can be! He gave me the best most insightful advice ever…

Yes, so the marraige and the divorce and custody battle were difficult, but I am grateful for having had to depend on God. Perhaps if I had had a wonderul (or even normal) husband I would have depended on him rather than God. This way I had to depend on Him, and then I learned that I truly can! And now he has healed me of those wounds, too!

I am leaving to see this man I love tomorrow! There are other things happening in the trip but there will be two entire days and two part-days together including a Latin Mass at a convent. It will be the first time I have seen him since October. We will also pray the office together in Latin (I will be learning!) because he has done this every day for very long, maybe 30 years? Also the Angelus 3x a day. Quite different from me, my life lacks regularity… that is one way I am going to be changing!

He has had many bad turns since we stopped writing around three years ago. He said to me that day, “I am a ruin!”. Although i was not looking for any relationship, the thought crossed my mind, “Yes, and furthermore you seem a bit codependent, and I need a healthy stable person!” So this was not for me! But then my feelings demanded otherwise of me…

He has unhealed tauuma himself from his marraige some years ago. I understand it a lot better now since we have written each other much now - I really do have a good understanding of some things after so many years of fruitless effort striving to understand my ex! I realize I cannnot take credit for my own healing - it was all God’s doing. Why is it that just because I am healed and happy I need an all-healed and happy person, too, someone who is “all set”? So we can be healed and happy together from the start? Instead, with God’s help I will help him though it, and it will delight me to see God strengthening him. I also have this strong conviction he should not be alone, and I need to be the one he is not alone with!

In my zeal to understand him more, I was reading on our Briggs-Meyers types and that led me to Socionics, which is based on the same 16 Jung-based types but is much more researched and also has relationship types. I was shocked to discover that our two types together make us “Duals” - the very best of the 16 relationship types, that is known to be a “psychologically therapeutic relationship”. So, I was a bit astounded with how good God can be… and more convinced that what is broken in him will right itself. I can see it starting already. I think when he sees me, and can see I am sure where I stand, it will help further.

…My story is the opposite. My wife and I have been united in Holy Matrimony for 37 years. We have been through life together, the ups and downs, trials, torments and joys, having and raising children, seeing them married and start families…

It is what I always wanted! I worked so hard to try to make this happen! However, the reality really does take two wanting the same thing. I mourned not having this for too long, and also did not get up hope til it was beyond hopeless. I did not start to heal until I had acceptance. Then I was able to see that God did bless me abundantly in so many, many other ways, just except this, which required cooperation of my ex.

[Continued in next post…]

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

[continued from previous post]

Now that life is not as busy as it was for many years and has quieted down we spend most of our time together in peace. The love we began with has multiplied over the years. I love being with her, listening to her voice, watching her go about her activities in and out of the house. She makes me happy. We live in peace and mutual love that is magnified the longer we are married.

This is a lovely reminder to me and a hope that it really can be this way ever-after. Thank you for that. I am sure just the two of you living your lives as you do gives hope to many, many others - you won’t know who you have affected till you are in Heaven - I think you will be surprised!

Marriage can and does lead to happiness for some people and misery and trauma for others. I can only attribute the enduring love of our marriage to grace.We both came to it broken fallen individuals.

Amen!

Our marital relations were normal and always open to life and mutually fulfilling.

The goods of marriage are sex. Someone who has not had a fulfilling marriage with normal sexual expression would naturally wonder if fulfimment or satisfaction are achievable in an abnormal way.

I really appreciate your understanding my viewpoint! And it is good to hear from a man in a long faithful happy marriage that the “goods of marriage are sex”. I’d have never have thought it! Its only recently it has hit me that this must be true!

What you are comtemplating regarding marital relations is certainly an abnormal approach to sexual intercourse. It is understandable that in looking for fulfillment where you were unable to find it compounded by the painful baggage and scars you are bringing to a new union you might be confused on how to approach the topic.

It is also understandable that you would want to make this aspect of your life to be as beautiful an expression of love as possible and look into ways to make that happen.

If you hope to have a good marriage the best approach is to do what is natural, not unnatural. Do what is according to your nature and the nature of sex. That is the whole approach of the Church’s moral instruction to couples.

Frankly, having been happily married a long time and now looking back on the sexual component of marriage, the ideas you are interested in are not simply odd, but bizarre. People for some reason are attracted to all kinds of wierd ideas regarding sex, how to make it better, more exciting, whatever.

Well your viewpoint couldn’t be a more valuable one, coming from your position of long-married happiness. Bizarre, you say. I was a bit concerned when I googled and saw that the Onieda comunity did this… that area is not so far from me though I have not been there. It was a rather perverted community frankly… and they celebrated this practice. Well, anything can be perverted, however, i was concerned.

If you marry this man why don’t you be open to natural relations before you decide that they will be less fulfilling or complete than what is very abnormal?

Yes, you are so right, the best approach is let what unfolds naturally just unfold. I need to put away fear, now that I realize its what motivated me to esteem this approach. I really stumbled on this theory, was trying to give an honest comment for a friend when I read and thought I had found a good thing. I do not feel I should be reading up on it, really, not that information is bad, just I don’t want preconceived ideas in the way. Since God designed it to take place in a loving marriage, if that is in place, I should’t need instructions… So yes, you are right, that is a good plan.

Thank you for kind thoughts, for being an instrument of God’s grace, bringing me peace about this.

 

[manualman]

It sounds like you are saying you cannot touch your spouse in a way that is sexually pleasurable to them unless you plan to continue all the way though to a possible conception??

So EVERY act has to be BOTH unitive and procreative?

It sounds too rigid to be a teaching of Holy Mother Church.

Not quite. This is a common misconception for people who ALMOST get it.

Catholicism sees human sexuality as an innately intertwined subject. Our culture tries to view sexuality as having three individual and separate subjects: intercourse, marriage and babies. The horrific results can be found in any newspaper.

The teaching is not that every sexual encounter has to be likely to make a baby. The teaching is that by purposely modifying human sexual interaction to exclude one (or more) of the aspects of human sexuality, the entirety is damaged, not just one isolated component. See the distinction? A couple has no obligation to abstain during naturally infertile times because it is our NATURE to be infertile at that time, there is no obligation to abstain after menopause because it is female nature to become infertile after a certain age. A woman who needed a hysterectomy for medical reasons is under no obligation to abstain because she is not INTENDING to alter the nature of her sexuality.

The mere intention to grasp the pleasure, but actively sterilize the act at the same time subtly changes the entire encounter. We’ve just become such a shallow culture that we are unwilling to believe in anything that cannot be measured on a scale or petri dish.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Not quite. This is a common misconception for people who ALMOST get it.

Catholicism sees human sexuality as an innately intertwined subject. Our culture tries to view sexuality as having three individual and separate subjects: intercourse, marriage and babies. The horrific results can be found in any newspaper.

The teaching is not that every sexual encounter has to be likely to make a baby. The teaching is that by purposely modifying human sexual interaction to exclude one (or more) of the aspects of human sexuality, the entirety is damaged, not just one isolated component. See the distinction? A couple has no obligation to abstain during naturally infertile times because it is our NATURE to be infertile at that time, there is no obligation to abstain after menopause because it is female nature to become infertile after a certain age. A woman who needed a hysterectomy for medical reasons is under no obligation to abstain because she is not INTENDING to alter the nature of her sexuality.

The mere intention to grasp the pleasure, but actively sterilize the act at the same time subtly changes the entire encounter. We’ve just become such a shallow culture that we are unwilling to believe in anything that cannot be measured on a scale or petri dish.

Now this sounds more reasonable! Whenever i learn what the Church actually teaches on a thing, it makes perfect sense!

Not that you are the end-of-the-line authority on what the Church teaches. However, I will keep this in mind as I seek to find out the true teaching. Good thing there is no pressing need to learn this stuff. I am two years away from the possibility of marrying… Because I do not want to add complication into my son’s life… just a bit longer then.