Curious about Eastern Rites

[corsair]

I hope none are offended by my asking (I’m a Trad Catholic of the Roman Rite) but would someone explain to me which of the Eastern Rites are in Communion with Rome and which are not. Just a little confused is all.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Kyrillos_NY]

Pretty much of Eastern Christianity has representation in the Eastern Catholic Churches.
This list is from the Annual Directory of the Vatican See:

1. Alexandrian liturgical tradition
   1. Coptic Catholic Church
   2. Ethiopian Catholic Church
   2.** Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition**
   1. Maronite Church
   2. Syriac Catholic Church
   3. Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
   3. Armenian liturgical tradition:
   1. Armenian Catholic Church
   4. Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
   1. Chaldean Catholic Church
   2. Syro-Malabar Church
   5. Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
   1. Albanian Greek Catholic Church
   2. Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present):
   3. Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
   4. Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci
   5. Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
   6. Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
   7. Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
   8. Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
   9. Melkite Greek Catholic Church
   10. Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
   11. Russian Catholic Church
   12. Ruthenian Catholic Church
   13. Slovak Greek Catholic Church
   14. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

Not all these Churches have representation in North America

 

[Kyrillos_NY]

I hope none are offended by my asking (I’m a Trad Catholic of the Roman Rite) but would someone explain to me which of the Eastern Rites are in Communion with Rome and which are not. Just a little confused is all.

Thanks in advance.

The answer to your second question is a bit more complicated. Rome permits Orthodox Christians who are “properly disposed” to receive Communion if they wish. This is not generally reciprocated by the Orthodox except in certain local situations.

 

[Cluny]

No reason to be offended. General rules of thumb:

If a given parish has “Catholic” as the only identifier, it’s in communion with Rome.

If it has “Orthodox” even in the formula “Orthodox Catholic”, it’s not.

 

[John_Larocque]

Ah, but this is not always true!

The Syrian Catholic Church and the Syrian Orthodox Church (Jacobite/Monophystite) are neither in communion with Orthodoxy nor Rome. I couldn’t find much information, theologically, on the SCC. There are, I think, five “pretenders” to the Antiochian throne - the Maronites (Catholic), the Melkites (Catholic), the Orthodox Patriarchate of Anthioch, and the aforesaid churches.

The Oriental Orthodox churches (such as the Coptic Orthodox Church) aren’t in communion with Orthodoxy (or Rome) either but that’s another story.

 

[Aramis]

I hope none are offended by my asking (I’m a Trad Catholic of the Roman Rite) but would someone explain to me which of the Eastern Rites are in Communion with Rome and which are not. Just a little confused is all.

Thanks in advance.

There are churches of all 6 rites/traditions in union. (Roman/Latin, Constantinopolitan/Byzantine, Antiochian/West Syrian, Chaldean/Assyrian/East Syrian, Armenian, Alexandrian/Coptic) Most of these rites have more than one Church in union; the Armenian and Roman do not.

There are churches of all of the 6 Catholic rites/traditions that are not in union with rome.

Roman Rite, Valid Sacraments: PNCC, Utrecht Union*, “Western Rite Othodox”**
Roman Rite, invalid sacraments: Anglican, Lutheran, many “Old Catholic Groups”,
Valid, but irregular union Roman Rite groups: SSPX, SSPV

Byzantine Rite: most parishes that use the term “Orthodox” in their name are Eastern Orthodox, tho some are non-canonical, and others are vagante. If they have a picture of the Pope, odds are they’re Catholic. Note that many Russian Catholic Parishes still have “Orthodox” on the signs, because changing the sign would cost them the rights to the building… Pray for Russia… Note that Antiochian Orthodox are Byzantines, not Syrians, by Rite. Intercommunion occurs in both the Antiochian Orthodox and the American Carpetho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese; a few OCA parishes will commune Eastern Catholics. The only way to be certain is to look up their bishop, and see if he’s part of one of the valid and/or canonical branches… And then there are the Old Believers… some of whom have valid sacraments, some don’t… If in doubt, listen for the commemoration of the Pope. Pretty much only the catholics will commemorate the Pope.

Armenian Rite: The Armenian Apostolic Orthodox are in limited communion with the Catholic church; Armenians of both churches are allowed the sacraments in the other freely; deacons are permitted by their bishops to assist in both.

Antiochian/Syrian: There is a Syrian Catholic CHurch in union, and a Syrian Orthodox Church, which isn’t in communion with Rome, but is in limited communion with the Syrian Catholic Church.

Chaldean Rite: The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East practice intercommunion, by treaty. The faithful of both are allowed the sacraments in either. Other catholics may be permitted to receive in the Assyrian Church by pastor’s permission.

Alexandrian Rite: The Coptic Orthodox are not in communion with Rome, and are the visible head of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. The Catholic parallel is the Coptic Catholic Church.
The Eritrean Orthodox and the Ethiopian Orthodox are not in communion, either, and both parallel the Ethiopian Catholic Church

*Utrech Union might not be anymore, since they seem to be ordaining omen.
** The bishops are Byzantine, but the rite used is Roman, with some byzantifications. Mostly Russian Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox, tho occasional use is permitted by some other jurisdicitions.

 

[elizaveta]

It can be really confusing to figure out who’s with who. Not only are there eastern rite Catholics, there are also western rite Orthodox.

Try this website byzcath.org/old/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=287&Itemid=93. They have a list of all the eastern rite Catholic dioceses (eparchies) in America. If you’re in the US and the church isn’t affiliated with one of the listed dioceses, then they are not in union with Rome.

 

[FrancisB]

All this confusion is the reason that I’m always intimidated by the Eastern Rites. I’ve been intrigued by these churches and liturgies for a long time, and while I’ve been to a few of their churches, I’ve never prayed the Divine Liturgy there. Part of that is that I feel like I’d need to sort through so much information to figure out what to do: figure out what church, what liturgy they use, and read it over enough to appreciate it before I went. It’s one of my goals to eventually find the time to do this. Their churches are so beautiful (I’ll be honest, I’m a big fan of icons) and their rites are ancient that I can’t help but to be drawn to them curiously. (I’ve been to plenty of Extraordinary Form masses too, even back into the not-so-distant past when they were indult masses, but that’s for another place.)

Can someone from the Latin Rite who has gone to a few of the other liturgies make a suggestion as to which of the liturgies is the most accessible to those of us of the Latin persuasion? I don’t mean to downplay the first-hand accounts of those who regularly attend the Eastern Rite liturgies, as I’m sure that they are all beautifully sacred in their own way. I’m just not sure that someone who grew up in one of the Eastern Rites would be able to recommend something to me as an easy stepping stone, other than to tell me about the beauty of their own liturgical tradition.

 

[elizaveta]

I hope this doesn’t double post - my first try dissappeared while I was working on it.

Here goes - again.

I was a Catholic who attended the Eastern rite then converted to the Orthodox Church, so I’m familiar with both.

Basically there are only 4 liturgies that are used in the Eastern rite and the Orthodox churches. They are the Liturgy of St John chrysostom, the Liturgy of St Basil, the Liturgy of St James and the Liturgy of the pre-Sanctified gifts.

The main thing you need to know to get started is that about 95% of the time it’s going to be the Liturgy of St John. So if you study that one, you’ll be covered most of the time. Also, the other liturgies aren’t very different, just longer.

The only differences between the Eastern rite and the Orthodox liturgy of St John is that during the litany where there is a prayer for Orthodox Bishops the Eastern rite will add a prayer for the Pope. And the Creed will have “procedes from the Father & the Son” instead of just “proceedes from the Father”

The best way is to get a liturgy book, or I found this one online that looks ok: ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/liturgy/liturgy.html. Read through it a couple of times, then just go to a Liturgy and follow along. And don’t be too hard on yourself, it’s not the easiest thing to follow even if you’re used to it.

As for a church, if you want an Eastern rite (not an Orthodox) then go to byzcath.org/old/index.php?option=com_sobi2&catid=24&Itemid=55 and search for a parish near you. If you want an Orthodox the three main jurisdictions are at oca.org/DIRlists.parish.asp?SID=9 or goarch.org/parishes/ or antiochian.org/parishes .

As far as I know most Eastern rite parishes use English, but not all Orthodox parishes do. If you don’t want to contend with foreign languages then you might have to “shop around”. Also, some Orthodox parishes are very friendly and some are very, very ethnic and not very welcoming.

Lastly, the Orthodox church doesn’t allow Catholics to take communion normally. Generally Orthodox priests won’t commune anyone they haven’t met first anyway.

Hope this helps and doesn’t add to the confusion.

 

[Aramis]

I hope this doesn’t double post - my first try dissappeared while I was working on it.

Here goes - again.

I was a Catholic who attended the Eastern rite then converted to the Orthodox Church, so I’m familiar with both.

Basically there are only 4 liturgies that are used in the Eastern rite and the Orthodox churches. They are the Liturgy of St John chrysostom, the Liturgy of St Basil, the Liturgy of St James and the Liturgy of the pre-Sanctified gifts.

That’s only true of the Byzantine rite, but is true for Catholics of the Byzantine Rite and Eastern Orthodox (who are almost all Byzantine Rite, allowing for the WRO). There are various redactions within some particular churches’ versions of the various liturgies. Plus some EO parishes offer the WRO liturgies of St Tikhon or St Gregrory. And not every church uses all 4; many appear to have dropped the use of the DL of St. James.

The Syriac Rites have the Qurbana/Quorbono, which is different than any of the Byzantine liturgies. The Chaldean and Assyrian are supposedly almost identical; the Indian churches likewise have similarities between their catholic and non-catholic versions… each church’s is apparently pretty distinct, but still fairly close to each other.

The Armenians have the Armenian Mass. It’s apparently nearly identical between Catholic and Orthodox.

The Coptic Orthodox and Catholic Churches share 2 or 3 liturgies.

The Ethiopian churches have their own liturgy, as well.

But for comparison… the Roman rite has Solem and Pontifical forms for each of 8 missals… Roman OF, Roman EF, Dominican, Carthusian, Carmelite, Dalmatian, Mozarabic, Bragan, and Ambrosian. Plus the Orthodox use of the Sarum Missal with byzantification, and a byzantified Roman EF. Most of these also have Presanctified for Easter weekend. Most also have simpler forms (like the Missa Cantata and Misa Privata).

And none of the above counts permitted translations (except for the Dalmatian, which is the EF in Church Slavonic).

 

[FrancisB]

I would not attend an Eastern Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox) service, except for a wedding or funeral of someone I knew. They aren’t Catholic. That’s different. And I understand that the Byzantine Catholic churches usually use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but what about the other Eastern Rite Churches? Don’t they have their own services?

As for the vernacular point, it would help, but I’m not opposed to following along with a missal. If it’s worked in the Latin mass, I think it’d work in other languages, provided I had the right missal, of course.

That said, the cultural element is important, but how would I know what communities will likely not appreciate outsiders? I feel like they should all welcome Latin rite Catholics and that most of them would. We’re all Catholic, and I’d certainly welcome them.

 

[Aramis]

Pope Bendict considers the EO, OO, and ACE the “Other Lung” of the Catholic Church.

(Pope JP II implied the ECC’s were… and that the EO,OO, and ACE also are part of that lung.)

 

[FrancisB]

I believe you misunderstand me. I do not have any negative feelings for the orthodox churches; in deed, I pray that one day the church will be reunited, but the only way this may happen is for the Orthodox churches to submit to Rome and accept the dogma of the Catholic church. Until that happens and Christendom is reunified, I will stay to Catholic services, thank you. It’s not a matter of who I like better; it’s that the Orthodox churches are not in communion with my church. I’m sure any Orthodox believer can understand that. Now can you leave the Orthodox Churches out of this? The question was about those churches in communion with Rome.

 

[elizaveta]

I would not attend an Eastern Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox) service, except for a wedding or funeral of someone I knew. They aren’t Catholic. That’s different. And I understand that the Byzantine Catholic churches usually use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but what about the other Eastern Rite Churches? Don’t they have their own services?

As for the vernacular point, it would help, but I’m not opposed to following along with a missal. If it’s worked in the Latin mass, I think it’d work in other languages, provided I had the right missal, of course.

That said, the cultural element is important, but how would I know what communities will likely not appreciate outsiders? I feel like they should all welcome Latin rite Catholics and that most of them would. We’re all Catholic, and I’d certainly welcome them.

OK, in a practical sense your going to be limited to churches that you can get to. Probably the best thing would be to to byzcath.org and search for parishes near you. Byzcath lists only Eastern rite churches in communion with Rome so you’re safe.

Then just call the Priest, introduce yourself and tell him that you want to visit his parish and ask for his advice. His responses to you should pretty much answer the question “would I be welcome”. My experience with the Eastern rite was only with the Byzantine, but I was always welcomed with open arms. Not sure about the other rites since I’ve never dealt with them.

 

[corsair]

I want to thank all of those who responded to my question. Its the first really “good” experience I’ve had with Eastern Rite Catholics, so I’ve been a little hestitant to enter into a dialog with them.

I was verbally attacked at a Marian Conference a number of years ago by a Byzantine Cath when she found out I was a Roman Rite adherant. Since then I’ve avoided Byzantine Catholics.

This experience certainly has changed my opinions. I’m still a little confused though. So much information. Its going to take a little research to sort some of this out.

Again, Thank you all.

God Bless

 

[Cluny]

<<The only differences between the Eastern rite and the Orthodox liturgy of St John is that during the litany where there is a prayer for Orthodox Bishops the Eastern rite will add a prayer for the Pope. And the Creed will have “procedes from the Father & the Son” instead of just “proceedes from the Father”>>

This is not accurate.

In the Byzantine tradition, following the “one step up rule” there may not be a commemoration of the Pope in the Litanies. This is certainly the Melkite custom.

And no recension of the Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine tradition has Filioque in it. And even the Chaldeans have dropped it.

 

[elizaveta]

<<The only differences between the Eastern rite and the Orthodox liturgy of St John is that during the litany where there is a prayer for Orthodox Bishops the Eastern rite will add a prayer for the Pope. And the Creed will have “procedes from the Father & the Son” instead of just “proceedes from the Father”>>

This is not accurate.

In the Byzantine tradition, following the “one step up rule” there may not be a commemoration of the Pope in the Litanies. This is certainly the Melkite custom.

And no recension of the Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine tradition has Filioque in it. And even the Chaldeans have dropped it.

The point I was trying to make is that IF there are differences these would be the only two ones.

And why would the Byzantines have dropped the Filioque? It is a dogmatic teaching of the RCC, dropping it would imply that the Byzantines believe that the Orthodox church is correct and the RCC is wrong.

 

[elizaveta]

That’s only true of the Byzantine rite, but is true for Catholics of the Byzantine Rite and Eastern Orthodox (who are almost all Byzantine Rite, allowing for the WRO). There are various redactions within some particular churches’ versions of the various liturgies. Plus some EO parishes offer the WRO liturgies of St Tikhon or St Gregrory. And not every church uses all 4; many appear to have dropped the use of the DL of St. James.

The Syriac Rites have the Qurbana/Quorbono, which is different than any of the Byzantine liturgies. The Chaldean and Assyrian are supposedly almost identical; the Indian churches likewise have similarities between their catholic and non-catholic versions… each church’s is apparently pretty distinct, but still fairly close to each other.

The Armenians have the Armenian Mass. It’s apparently nearly identical between Catholic and Orthodox.

The Coptic Orthodox and Catholic Churches share 2 or 3 liturgies.

The Ethiopian churches have their own liturgy, as well.

But for comparison… the Roman rite has Solem and Pontifical forms for each of 8 missals… Roman OF, Roman EF, Dominican, Carthusian, Carmelite, Dalmatian, Mozarabic, Bragan, and Ambrosian. Plus the Orthodox use of the Sarum Missal with byzantification, and a byzantified Roman EF. Most of these also have Presanctified for Easter weekend. Most also have simpler forms (like the Missa Cantata and Misa Privata).

And none of the above counts permitted translations (except for the Dalmatian, which is the EF in Church Slavonic).

All true. But I was attempting to give a confused person a simpler starting place. If I’d gone through every possible rite it would just have added to the confusion.

Since he was interested in the Eastern rite there was no reason to mention Western rite Orthodoxy. Also, although there are a number of rites as you pointed out, the vast majority of Eastern rite Catholics in the US are Byzantine. The same is true with the Orthodox (the Western rite is very small here).

It is most likely that anyone exploring the Eastern rite will end up at a Byzantine rite, so it makes sense to give information about the Byzantine rite as a starting place.

Of course the best thing to do if you want to learn about the rite is to find an Eastern rite parish near you, call the priest, find out about that particular church, and go from there.

Also, I don’t think the Liturgy of St James was done away with. To the best of my knowledge it is still the principal liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Indian Orthodox Church, the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, and the Mar Thoma Church. It was basically used in other EO churches only on the feast of St James and since most EO churches in the US don’t have daily liturgies it would be only seen once every few years at best anyway.

 

[5Loaves]

FrancisB -

OK, in a practical sense your going to be limited to churches that you can get to. Probably the best thing would be to to byzcath.org and search for parishes near you. Byzcath lists only Eastern rite churches in communion with Rome so you’re safe.

Then just call the Priest, introduce yourself and tell him that you want to visit his parish and ask for his advice. His responses to you should pretty much answer the question “would I be welcome”. My experience with the Eastern rite was only with the Byzantine, but I was always welcomed with open arms. Not sure about the other rites since I’ve never dealt with them.

Like elizaveta, I have always been warmly welcomed in ECCs (and Orthodox churches). I’d add to what elizaveta has said here that there is usually at least one deacon and he may be more available to respond to email or phone inquiries. Sometime the wife of the priest or deacon would also have that role. If you don’t hear back go anyway. They will still be expecting you, probably.

There are two important Feast Days very soon, Nativity of the Most-Holy Theotokos on Sept. 8, and the Exaltation of the Life-Creating Cross on Sept. 14 these are weekdays with Liturgy, and probably a Festal Vigil the evening before. Feast Days and Vigils/Vespers are wonderful times to go to an ECC.

Most churches seem to have fairly good websites these days with the times for Divine Liturgy and other liturgies, as well as some indication about the language. Be prepared to stand, and possibly cover your head, but possibly not, and to tell the priest your name as you approach for communion if it’s DL as he will typically speak your name when giving you Eucharist. (And, earlier, when the deacon sings “Let us conclude our prayers” figure you’re about half way through the DL. )

If you decide on a Byzantine parish there is some helpful information in this video. I’d encourage you to also listen to some of the interviews with the monks of Holy Resurrection Monastery. Both of these sites are Byzantine but they also make that clear and do make thoughtful reference to the other ECCs.

I encourage you to go and to not spend too much time and energy before hand trying to find out more. If you are respectful and follow the actions of those around you you should be fine.

As for the vernacular point, it would help, but I’m not opposed to following along with a missal. If it’s worked in the Latin mass, I think it’d work in other languages, provided I had the right missal, of course.

I also am a Roman rite Catholic. The Byzantine Church I attend is Russian, as is the Orthodox Church which I attend when my Byz parish has no services. Neither has missals. Both these churches do have some portions in Church-Slavonic, this varies, and is not usually a large part of the Liturgy, except on special occasions/Feasts. I don’t know about the Orthodox, but in my Byz parish the priest prefers people not have their nose in a book, or so I’ve been told by others, and I agree, from when I have been places where a print copy is provided.

If you look around in this EC section of the forum you can find other threads that discuss going to the DL for the first time. Again, it’s best to just go and experience. This is a wonderful reflection of a first time visitor, a Baptist pastor, at an Orthodox service, which is of course the same as our Liturgy, depending on the Rite. Parts 2 and 3 (It sounds like my church, except for the early arrivals and the liturgy book, and, I think, more people. )

 

[Cluny]

The point I was trying to make is that IF there are differences these would be the only two ones.

And why would the Byzantines have dropped the Filioque? It is a dogmatic teaching of the RCC, dropping it would imply that the Byzantines believe that the Orthodox church is correct and the RCC is wrong.

It’s not a dogmatic teaching of the Eastern Churches and it’s not in our liturgical or spiritual traditions, which Vatican 2 commanded us to follow.