Curious thought for non-Catholics: Mary and Satan

[joe371]

Scripture tells us that Jesus came to “break the power of him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil”.

I have been reading “The Mystical City of God” by Mary of Agreda and a certain logical conclusion hit me, namely, that if Mary had inherited original sin (or committed sin) then logically speaking, Satan could certainly boast victory over God to a certain degree, for not only having temporal domination over the mother of God, but superiority as well, because Mary would have succumbed to the Devil’s wiles by sinning i.e. she would have been infected by sin innate in all fallen souls, inherited since the time of Adam and Eve, due to the triumphal plot of the Devil. Moreover, Jesus, the God-Man, as per the 5th commandment, (if true about Mary, mother of God) had to obey/honor His mother i.e. subject Himself to the will of a sinful mother if she was in fact subject to the power of Satan, and she was if she was a sinner. Does it seem reasonable to conclude that God would allow such a thing, knowing, of course that nothing is impossible for God i.e. God certainly did not need Mary, the mother of God to be pure i.e. God could have accomplished His divine Will even if the mother of God was in fact dominated by the Devil.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Scripture tells us that Jesus came to “break the power of him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil”.

I have been reading “The Mystical City of God” by Mary of Agreda and a certain logical conclusion hit me, namely, that if Mary had inherited original sin (or committed sin) then logically speaking, Satan could certainly boast victory over God to a certain degree, for not only having temporal domination over the mother of God, but superiority as well, because Mary would have succumbed to the Devil’s wiles by sinning i.e. she would have been infected by sin innate in all fallen souls, inherited since the time of Adam and Eve, due to the triumphal plot of the Devil. Moreover, Jesus, the God-Man, as per the 5th commandment, (if true about Mary, mother of God) had to obey/honor His mother i.e. subject Himself to the will of a sinful mother if she was in fact subject to the power of Satan, and she was if she was a sinner. Does it seem reasonable to conclude that God would allow such a thing, knowing, of course that nothing is impossible for God i.e. God certainly did not need Mary, the mother of God to be pure i.e. God could have accomplished His divine Will even if the mother of God was in fact dominated by the Devil.

I can’t be bothered arguing the toss regarding Mary’s sinlessness or otherwise, but it seems that in exorcisms she’s the only person around who never gets abused by the demons being driven out.

I lifted the following quote from the following link -

regnumchristi.org/english/articulos/articulo.phtml?id=14318&se=364&ca=118&te=782

And once it´s said it?
At the end, the priest says to the demon, “Go away! Disappear!” The demon usually answers, “No, I don´t want to.” It rebels and revolts. Sometimes it says “You have no power over me. You are nothing to me.” But after a while, its resistance weakens. This usually happens after the invocation of the Holy Mother, she´s very important for that. No demon ever dares to insult her during an exorcism. Never.

**Does he have more respect for Mary than for God himself? **
Apparently. Otherwise no holds are barred, and everyone is insulted: the priests, everyone present, the bishops, the Pope, even Jesus Christ. But never the Virgin Mary. It´s an enigma.

 

[Dorothy]

Satan and his followers are humiliated by the Blessed Virgin, as she is a creature lower than the angels and has more grace than all of them combined once had!

 

[joe371]

I can’t be bothered arguing the toss regarding Mary’s sinlessness or otherwise, but it seems that in exorcisms she’s the only person around who never gets abused by the demons being driven out.

I lifted the following quote from the following link -

regnumchristi.org/english/articulos/articulo.phtml?id=14318&se=364&ca=118&te=782

:yup:

 

[joe371]

Satan and his followers are humiliated by the Blessed Virgin, as she is a creature lower than the angels and has more grace than all of them combined once had!

Agreed. Mary, the creature, was raised up by God to sit on the queenly throne next to the King of king’s throne (Jesus the Christ). Satan’s pride plummeted him to the lowest depths, while Mary’s humility did just the opposite i.e. a reversal of positions.

Jesus Christ is the long awaited Davidic King i.e. the heir of King David, and the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to king David, and therefore Mary’s Son rules from the Kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem; it seems logical to conclude that Jesus’ mother, the queen, should enjoy the same role that the past Davidic queen mothers enjoyed on earth as queen of the earthly Jerusalem.

 

[TxGodfollower]

Moreover, Jesus, the God-Man, as per the 5th commandment, (if true about Mary, mother of God) had to obey/honor His mother i.e. subject Himself to the will of a sinful mother if she was in fact subject to the power of Satan, and she was if she was a sinner. Does it seem reasonable to conclude that God would allow such a thing.

If a Christian’s (or Jewish) parent’s ask them to help them rob a bank, I don’t think they would be breaking the 5th commandment by refusing to do so. If they did do so, they would be breaking another commandment. Paul speaks truthfully when he says obey your parents, in the Lord. We don’t have to obey the evil whims of our sinful parents.

 

[joe371]

If a Christian’s (or Jewish) parent’s ask them to help them rob a bank, I don’t think they would be breaking the 5th commandment by refusing to do so. If they did do so, they would be breaking another commandment. Paul speaks truthfully when he says obey your parents, in the Lord. We don’t have to obey the evil whims of our sinful parents.

Great point. Do you think it’s reasonable to conclude that the Triune God would allow the mother (of Jesus, who is the Son of God) to be dominated by Satan, and she was while she walked the earth, if she sinned, just as every person is, until they hopefully make it to heaven?

 

[Kliska]

Great point. Do you think it’s reasonable to conclude that the Triune God would allow the mother (of Jesus, who is the Son of God) to be dominated by Satan, and she was while she walked the earth, if she sinned, just as every person is, until they hopefully make it to heaven?

Satan is not to blame for every sin; that’s the line Eve tried out in the Garden, and it didn’t work then either. Humans are capable of sin and culpable on our own, we are responsible for our sin. I don’t believe Mary was ever “dominated by Satan” just because I believe she sinned as we all do. I don’t see that taught in scripture. There is wheat and there are tares… Mary was wheat. There are daughters of the Devil and daughters of God, she was a daughter of God, as we are all sons and daughters of God that do His will.

 

[joe371]

Satan is not to blame for every sin; that’s the line Eve tried out in the Garden, and it didn’t work then either. Humans are capable of sin and culpable on our own, we are responsible for our sin. I don’t believe Mary was ever “dominated by Satan” just because I believe she sinned as we all do. I don’t see that taught in scripture. There is wheat and there are tares… Mary was wheat. There are daughters of the Devil and daughters of God, she was a daughter of God, as we are all sons and daughters of God that do His will.

I am simply saying that sin entered through the act of the evil one, (the first man and woman of course cooperated via free will) and of course we are responsible for our sin via temptation, original sin notwithstanding. We are all sinners and therefore, as per scripture, we are dominated by the devil, at least when we sin: “when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil.”

Do you believe in original sin?

 

[joe371]

Satan is not to blame for every sin;.

Who is to blame for original sin, and the act of sin when people commit sin, if not Satan?

 

[Dorothy]

Satan is not to blame for every sin; that’s the line Eve tried out in the Garden, and it didn’t work then either. Humans are capable of sin and culpable on our own, we are responsible for our sin. I don’t believe Mary was ever “dominated by Satan” just because I believe she sinned as we all do. I don’t see that taught in scripture. There is wheat and there are tares… Mary was wheat. There are daughters of the Devil and daughters of God, she was a daughter of God, as we are all sons and daughters of God that do His will.

Good Morning, and a Blessed Christmas to you Kliska,

Catholics believe, (and I am one), that not everything is explicit in Sacred Scripture. We do believe it is implicit in many cases.

Catholics believe in a “three-legged stool”, so to speak,…Sacred Scripture, Tradition with a capital “T”, and the God-given authority of the Church to teach faith and morals. (The pope cannot teach error in faith and morals, that is what is meant by infallibility).

So, when the Church defines her beliefs whether it be the extraordinary Magisterium or the ordinary Magisterium, (teaching authority handed down by our Lord Jesus Christ)…it is to be believed by all the faithful, for our own good, and the good of the Body of Christ on earth. (The Church.)

Peace, Dorothy

 

[GaryTaylor]

Scripture tells us that Jesus came to “break the power of him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil”.

I have been reading “The Mystical City of God” by Mary of Agreda .

joe371 is that the 3-4 volume set? I was looking at it on Amazon a few months back, it sounds absolutely wonderful. Whats your thoughts?

 

[Kliska]

I am simply saying that sin entered through the act of the evil one,

I truly am not trying to be nitpicky, but sin entered via Adam;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

We are all sinners and therefore, as per scripture, we are dominated by the devil, at least when we sin

That’s where we differ; I don’t see it taught in scripture that when we sin we are “dominated by the devil.” I do see that there are some whose father is the Devil, and some whose Father is God.

Do you believe in original sin?

I do, but it is somewhere between how it is defined by certain Jewish ways of looking at it and how the RCC looks at it… in essence I reject the Calvinist way of looking at it. lol Clear as mud…

 

[joe371]

joe371 is that the 3-4 volume set? I was looking at it on Amazon a few months back, it sounds absolutely wonderful. Whats your thoughts?

I just started reading it. Of course we can take it or leave it. However, Mary of Agreda is certainly a very interesting/holy person: stjames-church.com/cogcontents.html

 

[joe371]

Kliska;12603199]I truly am not trying to be nitpicky, but sin entered via Adam;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

:yup:

That’s where we differ; I don’t see it taught in scripture that when we sin we are “dominated by the devil.” I do see that there are some whose father is the Devil, and some whose Father is God.

When I say dominated, when we sin, I simply mean we “belong” to the devil, as per scripture; that’s pretty much it. I don’t believe, based purely on reason, as opposed to Catholic teaching (which I of course embrace as a catholic) that God would allow Mary, the mother of the God-Man to ever “belong” to the devil, especially in view of the fact that Jesus and Mary represent the new Adam and Eve. If you disagree, that’s cool; just curious as to why…?

We are all sinners and therefore, as per scripture, we are dominated by the devil, at least when we sin: "when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong* to the devil,** who has been sinning since the beginning. *

Of course the remedy is always there for those times when we do sin:

"But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil…

I do, but it is somewhere between how it is defined by certain Jewish ways of looking at it and how the RCC looks at it… in essence I reject the Calvinist way of looking at it. lol Clear as mud…

 

[GaryTaylor]

I just started reading it. Of course we can take it or leave it. However, Mary of Agreda is certainly a very interesting/holy person: stjames-church.com/cogcontents.html

Thanks Joe, first I seen it on-line. I’ll have to read it, at $200. from Amazon I assumed I already had much of the knowledge and rationalized the purchase.

Yea, dominate is a strong word, dominion is perhaps better.

 

[joe371]

Thanks Joe, first I seen it on-line. I’ll have to read it, at $200. from Amazon I assumed I already had much of the knowledge and rationalized the purchase.

Yea, dominate is a strong word, dominion is perhaps better.

Yeah! That word is rather harsh, regarding the sinful nature of the human race, and of course Jesus came and defeated Satan and Satan’s control over the human race, even though “the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour”. According to scripture, at least when we sin, the Devil does seem to sort of own us in a way, something, (at least in my humble opinion) that God would never allow vis-a-vis the mother of the Son of God. If the following ever applied to Mary it certainly would give Satan something to be proud of…to boast about; does not seem likely:

“We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”

“The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.”

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil…"

"when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil*,** who has been sinning since the beginning." *

 

[joe371]

Thanks Joe, first I seen it on-line. I’ll have to read it, at $200. from Amazon I assumed I already had much of the knowledge and rationalized the purchase.

Yea, dominate is a strong word, dominion is perhaps better.

I was thinking: If Mary sinned even one time, then, at least that one time, her will was subject to the will of Satan? Even as a former Protestant, this seemed hard to believe…

 

[BlueKnight]

Actually God did need Mary because she was a daughter of Adam and was required to redeem the flesh and souls of men.

An interesting insight into Mary’s source is a book from a holy Italian mystic nun who had the stigmata. According to her god took another rib from Adam before he fell and saved it in order to make Mary, who was therefore not subject to original sin.

Thus even while on earth, Mary was higher then Satan because she was sinless while Satan was a fallen sinful creature devoid of the light of God. It is you proximity to God and you I sweeping if him that determines your status in heaven.

Since Mary was without sin, and Jesus indwelled perfectly in her for nine months, which is three times the number of perfect union or the trinity, she could command any angelic being fallen or otherwise. Most particularly with Mary is not just the absence of all sin but the fullness of all the virtues and beautiful aspects of God expressed in humanity. In particular her humility. In spiritual combat, you counter with opposites, and satan is very proud and cannot even be in her presence because of our ladies Great humility. In fact, I believe it is her humility that crushes the head if satan, crushing his vain and proud thoughts and mind and plans.

Not only this but Satan is continuously decaying and putrifying while the blessed mother on earth continued to grow in grace and merit and in heaven in glory when a soul repents and converts because of her intercession.

Furthermore satan can only give you knowledge or power that he has. A fallen and corrupted power that is diminishing with time and does not benefit from further revelations of god after the fall of the angels. God has saved the best for last, and I believe the toughest saints for the final battles.

blueknight