Current living conditions are incompatible with holiness

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This is an issue that seems almost void in the Catholic Church today. Like Vatican II says, we are all called to holiness, but how are we supposed to achieve that in the world we live in? Doesn’t it seem like the only way you can get out of the rat race is to become a priest, nun or religious?

Here is what Ratzinger said in 1986… (emphasis added)

“In a world like the west… money and wealth are the measure of all things… The model of the free market imposes its implacable laws on every aspect of life…** Authentic Catholic ethics now appears to many like an alien body** from times long past…a kind of meteorite which is in opposition, not only to the concrete habits of life, but also to the way of thinking underlying them. Economic liberalism creates its exact counterpart, permissivism, on the moral plane…It becomes difficult, if not altogether impossible, to present Catholic morality as reasonable. It (Catholic morality) is too distant from what is considered to be obvious, as normal by the majority of persons, conditioned by the dominant culture with which not a few ‘Catholic’ moralists have aligned themselves as influential supporters.” Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, The Ratzinger Report (San Francisco, Ignatius Press, 1986) 83”

He goes onto say: (emphasis added)

"Here too we must rediscover the courage of nonconformism in the face of the trends of the affluent world. Instead of following the spirit of the times, we ourselves must witness that spirit of nonconformity with evangelical seriousness. We have lost the sense that Christians cannot live like ‘everybody else’. The foolish idea according to which there is no specific Christian morality is only an expression of the loss of a basic concept: what is ‘distinctively Christian’ with respect to the models of the world. Even in some religious orders and congregations true reform has been exchanged for the relaxation of traditional austerity until then in practice. Renewal has been exchanged for comfort…but the present day decline of the indispensable austerity of Christian life is fashioned also by these ‘trivial’ matters…”

JP II said that children should be raised in a simple and austere environment, but how often do you hear bishops or priests preaching the faults of our current capitalist economy. How often have you heard bishops talking about the social encyclicals of the church? How many Catholics know what the social encyclicals even are? Or subsidiarity?

My dad and I, along with a few others (some Catholic, some not), are starting a self-sustained community built around the liturgical year of the church. This community will have several industries supporting it, and it would also be an agrarian based community. The community will also take care of the mentally and physically disabled. We would grow basically all of our food and live simple lives. We are looking for more people to join the group, preferably younger, but it seems like whenever we bring this up with others, they think we are from another planet, when we are just doing what the popes are telling us to do…

Here is part of an interview from EWTN several years ago…

Raymond Arroyo: “Pope John Paul II, had stated his ideas about the springtime of the Church, i.e. mass conversions. Your idea is not the same. Would you please tell us of what your idea is?”

Cardinal Ratzinger: “My idea of the springtime of the Church is not that of many (mass) conversions. That is not the way that God works. In the time of St. Paul we had small communities. They embodied the essential things – they had the food of life, informed values and the truth. We need small vibrant communities. They hold the future of life. Communities of conviction and with convinced persons. Few in number in the beginning. But to young people the communities would radiate life. The young could see that here is the way of life for tomorrow. The communities would be an attraction as a new, different way of life and could show people that here we have the future, a different future. Here is the way of life for tomorrow.”

Are there any other Catholics out there interested in this?
 
Timely post. I’ve been thinking along those lines too.I did read that one of the reasons that Christian monasticism exists was the fact that, as the Roman Empire collapsed, some people believed it was impossible to live the Gospel life in the world, and so the institution of the monastery arose. I sometimes think our times are similar to those.
 
Shoshana said:
like a Catholic kibbutz…
Click to expand...
Yes, that would be a good analogy. It would strictly liturgical though.

If anyone is interested in reading more quotes, here a bunch that support this way of thinking. There is a lot, but this is about as condensed as my dad can get it…
1 – “ Faith takes form in culture and a culture is also the result of faith…Inculturation, then, is not simply adaptation but a dynamic encounter between the culture of a certain place and the culture which comes from the Gospel.” From Instrumentum Laboris for the Synod on the Eucharist# 79

“ It is a fact baring on the very person of man that he can come to an authentic and full humanity only through culture, that is, through the cultivation of natural goods and values. Wherever human life is involved, therefore, **nature and culture **are quite intimately connected.” . From the Documents of Vatican II, P 259

“ But before proceeding to discuss these problems, We lay down the principles long since clearly established by Leo XIII, that it is Our right and Our duty to deal authoritatively with social and economic problems. It is not, of course, the office of the Church to lead men to transient and perishable happiness only, but to that which is eternal. Indeed, ‘the Church believes that it would be wrong for her to interfere without just cause in such earthly concerns.’ But she can never relinquish her God-given task of interposing her authority, not indeed in technical matters, for which she has neither the equipment nor the mission, but in all those that have a bearing on moral conduct. For the deposit of truth entrusted to Us by God, and Our weighty office of propagating, interpreting and urging in season and out of season the entire moral law, demand that both social and economic questions be brought within Our supreme jurisdiction, in so far as they refer to moral issues.” Pope Pius XI, On Social Reconstruction. 1931.

“ Papal pronouncements, in whatsoever way communicated, are the Church’s supreme teaching. Apart from ex cathedra definitions, they remain the teachings of the Bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter, who received from Christ our Lord a unique mission in the domain of teaching.” “ In his Encyclical Ad Coeli Reginam (Oct. 11, 1954) Pius XII reminded us that in Marian teaching, as well as in the whole of Christian doctrine, ‘for everyone the norm closest to the truth and the one universally to be accepted is the living Magisterium of the Church, which Christ founded for the purpose of clarifying and explaining the truths contained only obscurely and as it were implicitly in the Deposit of Faith.’ ” The Monks of Solesmes, Papal Teachings, Our Lady (Boston, MA, Daughters of St. Paul, 1961) P. 9-10.

2 & 3 - “ One thing is clear: without God things cannot go well. And because only in Christ has God shown us his face…, without Christ there is no ultimate hope.” Ratzinger, Inside the Vatican, May 2005, P. 119.

4 - “ And the Church is young. **She holds within herself the future **of the world and therefore shows each of us the way towards the future.” Ratzinger, Inside the Vatican, May 2005, P.31. The first homily as Pope, April 24, 2005.

5 - “ Therefore the earth’s treasures no longer serve to build God’s garden for all to live in, but they have been made to serve the powers of exploitation and destruction.”
 
More Quotes…
“ The Church as a whole and all her Pastors, like Christ, must set out to lead people out of the desert, towards the place of life, towards friendship with the Son of God, towards the one who gives us life, and life in abundance.” Inside the Vatican, May 2005, P.32. The first homily as Pope, April 24, 2005.

“ All methods are empty without the foundation of prayer. The word of the announcement must always be drenched in an intense life of prayer.” Benedict XVI, Inside the Vatican, May ’05, P. 105

“We feel not only the need but even the categorical imperative for great, intense and growing prayer by all the Church. Only prayer can prevent all of these great… difficulties from becoming a source of crisis… Accordingly, as I end this meditation with a warm and humble call to prayer, together with Mary the Mother of Jesus…I implore Mary, the heavenly Mother of the Church, to be so good as to devote herself to this prayer of humanity’s new advent….” The Redeemer of Man, John Paul II.

6 – “As the years went by and the Church spread further afield, the exercise of charity became established as one of her **essential **activities, along with the administration of the sacraments and the proclamation of the word; love for widows and orphans, prisoners, and the sick and needy of every kind, is as essential to her as the ministry of the sacraments and preaching of the Gospel. The Church cannot neglect the service of charity any more than she can neglect the Sacraments and the Word.” # 22. Ratzinger, God is Love.

7 – “ Thus far, two essential facts have emerged from our reflections:
(I)The Church’s deepest nature is expressed in her three-fold responsibility; of (1) **proclaiming the word of God **(2) **celebrating the sacraments **and exercising the (3) ministry of charity. These duties presuppose each other and are inseparable. For the Church, charity is not a kind of welfare activity which could equally well be left to others, but is a part of her nature, an indispensable expression of her very being. (II)The Church is God’s family in the world. In this Family no one ought to go without the necessities of life…the Church also has a specific responsibility: within the ecclesial family no member should suffer through being in need. ” # 25. Ratzinger, God is Love.

8 - “ But it is indispensable, today more than ever, that this doctrine be known, assimilated and translated into social reality. In the form and manner that the different situations allow and demand. It is a most difficult task, but a most noble one, to which the carrying our of which we most warmly invite not only our brothers and sisters scattered throughout the world, but also all men of good will.” Mother and Teacher, John XXIII.

“ Love is the light - and in the end the **only light **– that can illuminate a world grown dim and give us the
courage needed to keep loving and working.” # 39. Ratzinger, God is Love.

9 - **“From the very start, the Christian community should be so formed that it can provide for its own necessities insofar as this is possible.” **Abbott, Documents of Vatican II., Missions # 15.

“ A Christian community in which all of the members are conscious of their own obligations, in which there is no compromise with outside show and or worldly interests, in which the commands of God and the Church are taken seriously; a Christian community which proves its quality by love of God and practical love of neighbor, must be a model and a guide for a world that is profoundly ailing, and yet seeking for support and guidance, if an unspeakable catastrophe and collapses beyond all imagination is not to come upon it.” Apostolic Letter, Mit Brennender Sorge, 14 March 1937, P XI.

“ Then the Christian philosophy of life would guide a community virtually not decoratively Christian, a community of human rights and dignity of the human person, in which men belonging to diverse racial stocks and to diverse spiritual lineages would work at a temporal common task which was truly human and progressive.” S. & P.P. O J. Maritain. P. 164.

“ If the lifestyle spread throughout the world implies the danger of de-personalization, of not living one’s own life, but the life of all the others, in conversion a new ‘We’, of the common path of God, must be achieved. In proclaiming conversion, we must also offer community of life a common space for the new style of life. We cannot evangelize with words alone; the Gospel creates life, communities of progress; a merely individual conversion, has no consistency…” Ratzinger, Inside the Vatican, May 2005, P. 106
 
10 -“ Much will depend, however, on having places which can serve as models, places where the Eucharist is truly believed and properly celebrated, places where people can personally experience what the Sacrament is – the only authentic response to a person’s every need in the search for life’s meaning.” Instrumentum Laboris, Adoremus Bulletin, October ’05, P. 3.

11 - “ Finally, it (the Church) draws upon its rich experience of many centuries which enables it, while continuing its permanent preoccupations, to **undertake the daring and creative innovations **which the present state of the world requires.” A Call to Action, Paul VI

12 – **“…human work is a key, probably the essential key, to the whole social question…” **J.P. II. On Human Work, # 3.

13 - **“…these and further symptoms of the moral disorder that are being noticed in the world situation and therefore requires daring creative resolves in keeping with man’s authentic dignity.” ** J.P. II, The Redeemer of Man.

14 - “ The Liturgical movement unaccompanied by a contemplative movement is a kind of romanticism”. Balthasar, Prayer, P. 98​

(The Liturgy) “… is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit.” Documents of Vatican II, Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy, # 10.

15 – “…culture of death.” J.P.II – “John Paul states that it must be countered by a ‘civilization of love, founded on the universal values of peace, solidarity, justice and liberty, which find their full attainment in Christ.,’ ” Tracey Rowland, Culture and the Thomist Tradition, P. 43.​

16 – “ ‘ Re-energising of the Church in culture’. Such projects are radical, in the true sense of the term. They require a ‘root and branch’ kind of renewal encapsulated by Pickstock’s juxtaposition of the ‘polity of death’ with a ‘liturgical city’ ” Tracey Rowland, Culture and the Thomist Tradition, P. 166.​

“ However imperfect and temporary are all the things that can and ought to be done through the combined efforts of everyone and through divine grace, at a given moment of history, in order to make people’s lives more human, nothing will be lost or will have been in vain. This is the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, in the enlightening passage of the Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et Spes: “ When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise-- human dignity, fraternal communion, and freedom–according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom…here on earth that kingdom is already present in mystery”. JP II, On Social Concern, Encyclical Letter, Dec. 30, 1987, # 48.
 
17 – “One of the first practical steps- to give friendship and assistance to the poor and suffering.”
“ For the rest, the right to have a share of earthly goods sufficient for oneself and one’s family** belongs to everyone**. The Fathers and the Doctors of the Church held this view, teaching that men are obliged to come to the relief to the **poor **and to do so not only out of their superfluous goods.” Doc of Vat. II, Abbott, P. 278
“ This is particularly true of activities designed for the needy, such as the works of mercy…” P 241.

18 - “ **Modern man listens **more willingly to witnesses than to teachers, and if he does listen to teachers, it is because they are witnesses. – the witness of poverty and detachment, of freedom in the face of the powers of his world, in short, the witness of sanctity.” Pope Paul VI, On Evangelization in the Modern World (December 8, 1975) # 41.

19 - “ The world calls for and expects from us simplicity of life, the spirit of prayer, charity towards all, especially towards the lowly and the poor, obedience and humility, detachment and self-sacrifice. Without this mark of holiness, our word will have difficulty in touching the heart of modern man. It risks being vain and sterile.” Pope Paul VI, On Evangelization in the Modern World (December 8, 1975) # 59.

20 -“Eloquence may be suitable for exhortation, reason may be effective in persuasion, but examples are more forceful than words, and it is better to teach by deeds than by words.” St. Pope Leo the Great, Magnificat, Sept. ’07. P. 287.

21 - “ Some would consider such hopes utopian. It may be that these persons are not realistic enough, and that they have not perceived the dynamism of a world, which desire to live more fraternally-…Pope Paul VI, On the Development of Peoples, # 79.

22 - “ Layman should take it up as their own proper task the renewal of the temporal order. If the role of the hierarchy is to teach and to interpret authentically the norms of morality to be followed in this matter, it belongs to the laity, without waiting passively for orders and directives, to take the initiative freely and to infuse a Christian spirit into the mentality, customs, laws and structures of the community in which they live.” Pope Paul VI , On The Development of Peoples, (1967) # 81.

23 – In 1967 Paul VI issued the Encyclical Letter On the Development of People. In the Encyclical the word “urgent” is used 12 times. The following is from # 80 and # 81 of that document:​

“ We have desired to remind all men of how crucial is the present moment, how urgent the work to be done. The hour for action has now sounded. At stake are the survival of so many innocent children and for so many families overcome by misery, the access to conditions fit for human beings; at stake are the peace of the world and the future of civilization. It is time for all men and all peoples to face up to their responsibilities.”

Using some of the ideas of C.S. Lewis - If the true presence of God in the Eucharist is false it is of no value. If it is true it is of infinite value. One thing that the Eucharist cannot be is of moderate value.
“ Most men live by custom, culture and habit, not conviction.” J. Ratzinger.
 

24-Ultimately what we would like to see is:​

“ the only goal of the exodus is shown to be worship…Israel departs in order to serve God.” Ratzinger P16
…a “Liturgical city.” (C. Pickstock).
“Much more attention should be given to worship as the generator of grace, of culture and of the eschatological dimension of life.” (B. Luykx).
John Paul II’s call for a “civilization of love”.
Mass and sung Divine Office (J.P.II) each day. All are invited to participate.
and perpetual adoration. “ May our **adoration **never cease.” J. P. II.
“…violence is defeated by love. (i.e. the Eucharist) It is the true transformation which the world needs and which alone can redeem the world.” Ratzinger.
“ Whoever recognizes the Lord in the tabernacle, recognized him in the suffering and the needy; they are among those whom the world’s judge will say: ‘ I was hungry…’ ” Ratzinger, P. 119.
L’Arche type homes will be the “ glue that will bind the community together.
“…all human behavior worthy of the name of “practice” (work) will have some form of virtue-requiring and virtue engendering capacity.” Rowland on MacIntyre.
“ The flourishing of the virtues requires and in turn sustains a certain kind of community, necessarily a small-scale community, in which the goods of various practices are ordered, so that, as far as possible, regards for each finds its due place with the lives of each individual, or each household, and in the life of the community at large. Because, implicitly or explicitly, it is always by reference to some conception of the overall and final human good that other goods are ordered, the life of every individual, household or community by its orderings gives expression, wittingly or unwittingly, to some conception of the human good. And it is when goods are ordered in terms of an antiquate conception of human good that the virtues generally flourish. “ Politics” is the Aristotelian name for the set of activities though which goods are ordered in the life of the community. MacIntyre
 
My initial thought upon reading Stogs’ posting was the Gospel’s message that we Christians don’t merely exist for ourselves – we’re to be salt and light for the world. I don’t know how well we can fulfill this mission if we insulate ourselves from the world.

I have no objections to closely-knit Christian communities (with families) if they do so to support each other in faith, in order to share their love for Christ outside of their communities.

We can live in the world, and not be “of” this world. We don’t need to live in an enclosed community to make God and His will for us our highest priority.
 
Then how do you respond to the wealth of statements made by various popes and philosophers on this subject? It seems to me that they couldn’t be much clearer. This isn’t my idea, the church has been talking about this for 100 years…
“ A Christian community in which all of the members are conscious of their own obligations, in which there is no compromise with outside show and or worldly interests, in which the commands of God and the Church are taken seriously; a Christian community which proves its quality by love of God and practical love of neighbor, must be a model and a guide for a world that is profoundly ailing, and yet seeking for support and guidance, if an unspeakable catastrophe and collapses beyond all imagination is not to come upon it.” Apostolic Letter, Mit Brennender Sorge, 14 March 1937, P XI.

“Then the Christian philosophy of life would guide a community virtually not decoratively Christian, a community of human rights and dignity of the human person, in which men belonging to diverse racial stocks and to diverse spiritual lineages would work at a temporal common task which was truly human and progressive.” S. & P.P. O J. Maritain. P. 164.

Cardinal Ratzinger: “My idea of the springtime of the Church is not that of many (mass) conversions. That is not the way that God works. In the time of St. Paul we had small communities. They embodied the essential things – they had the food of life, informed values and the truth. We need small vibrant communities. They hold the future of life. Communities of conviction and with convinced persons. Few in number in the beginning. But to young people the communities would radiate life. The young could see that here is the way of life for tomorrow. The communities would be an attraction as a new, different way of life and could show people that here we have the future, a different future. Here is the way of life for tomorrow.”
We don’t just live for ourselves. That is why a major part of the community will be taking care of the mentally and physically disabled.
 
It is hard to live a simple, Christ focused life in this world. For those of us who can’t leave the world, it can be done however. It takes lots of prayer and perserverance. There are many worldly things that you need to give up to make time for prayer, or simply because they aren’t good for you.

If you are able to remove yourself from this sinful world, please be like St Benedict and pray for those “who can’t or won’t prayer for themselves.”
 
Yes, it is possible to be holy in this “world” we live in. It is also possible to be great at basketball with one arm, but if you have two, things are so much easier…
 
Some of us are working on it:

www.penitents.org

In the great scheme of things our efforts may appear to be trivial, but throughout our lives we keep pressing ever further toward the goal.
 
If you’re starting a new religious type community, you need to get permission from the Bishop.

What you seem to be describing is similar to the Catholic Worker community that was in my town, some years back. At one point, they had 12 people, married couples included, living on their farm. In addition to growing their own food,(as much as possible), they got involved with soup kitchens and other outreach programs to the poor. They also adopted a village in Africa, where they went over to teach them how to farm in efficient methods etc.

However, from what I understand, they are no longer in existence and I’m not sure why.

Jim
 
The only reason we would have to meet the bishop is to get us a priest who is liturgical. We aren’t starting a lay order.
 
I guess I should ask a general question here. How many people, if they could, would choose to live a simple, agrarian based life in small communities?
 
Hello!

I’m afraid I’m going to have to disagree with the assertion that current living conditions are incompatible with holiness. 🙂 As you yourself noted, we are all called to holiness. I realize that our culture is now largely working in direct opposition to human decency and morality, but that neither excuses us from striving for sanctity nor requires that we withdraw from the world at large.

I’m not trying to argue against your proposed community at all—it sounds lovely. I just get a little worried when people make blanket assertions that living in the our world these days makes it impossible to be a saint.

I belong to Opus Dei, and we are pretty strong believers in the possibility of being a saint in the middle of the world. One of the models that St. Josemaria, our founder, held up for us, were the early Christians. They lived in a profoundly pagan society that was going to rot from within in less than three hundred years. Yet in the midst of that, they managed to spread the light of Christ throughout the known world. This was largely accomplished by everyday joes—farmers, soldiers, merchants, etc.—who simply went about their day being Christians in the midst of this paganism. They obviously didn’t feel that their corrupted culture was incompatible with holiness.

I don’t mean to highjack the thread, and again, I don’t mean to dispute with your agrarian idea, for those who feel drawn to such a life. I just couldn’t not jump in for a second regarding the incompatability of holiness and the world claim…

Best,

Margaret

PS Further reading: escrivaworks.org/book/conversations-chapter-8.htm
www.opusdei.org

PPS And to answer your newly-posted question, no, I personally wouldn’t choose an agrarian life as you describe. I love to camp, love to garden, love to do a lot of domestic-arts type stuff, but also love having internet access, eating out, going to the occasional movie, delivering my babies in a fully-equipped hospital, etc…
 
I would say, “When in Rome…” Are the holy folks in Rome purposely living in the pre-Industrial age? I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with a bucolic 19th century lifestyle, but when you think a community revolving around that will somehow make you more holy is sort of “out there.”

The Catholic Church did invent Western Civilization. The Church didn’t do that by isolating themselves from the world!
 
Again, I am not saying it is impossible. I can only respond with more quotes from Vatican II, John XXIII and Virgil Michael.

“The common welfare of society consists in the entirety of those conditions of social life under which men enjoy the possibility of achieving their own perfection in a certain fullness of measure and also with some relative ease.” Doc. Of Vat.II,Abbott, P. 683.

“…all workers should also enjoy sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their family, cultural, social, and religious life. Doc. Vat. II., Abbott, P. 276.

“However those who hold man and the family in proper esteem, whether this be based upon nature alone, or also upon Christian principles, surely look toward some** form of agricultural enterprise and particularly of the family type**…” Mater and Magistra, John XXIII.

“ They can easily see how noble is their work either because they live out their lives in the majestic temple of creation, or because **their work often concerns the life of plants and animals, a life that is inexhaustible in its expression, inflexible in its laws, rich in allusions to God, the creator and provider; or because they procure food necessary to furnish an increasing number of raw materials for industry. ** Furthermore it is work which carries with it the dignity of a profession…” Mater Magistra, John XXIII.

“There is not a question of primarily turning as many city dwellers as possible into dirt farmers…the question is first of all, one of decentralization of the present artificial city congestion, of bringing people back closer to nature, regardless of their professions in life. It is not first of all a question of city or farm, but of unnatural life as against a normal life close to nature.” Virgil Michael, Marx, P. 37.
 
Lava58 said:
I would say, “When in Rome…” Are the holy folks in Rome purposely living in the pre-Industrial age? I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with a bucolic 19th century lifestyle, but when you think a community revolving around that will somehow make you more holy is sort of “out there.”

The Catholic Church did invent Western Civilization. The Church didn’t do that by isolating themselves from the world!
Click to expand...
So, then the opinions of the popes are “out there.” Read the above quotes…
 
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