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wmscott
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I agree, and I also feel that there may be miracles out there that go unnoticed because many are to focused on the worldly things in life and that many do not hear God speaking to them.
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TimothyH
Guest
I hope people remember that Elijah performed the miracle of the oil and raising the widow’s son for a woman who was not a Jew.
God can show his glory and power to anyone he chooses. God’s glory is not limited to Jews before Christ and Catholics after Christ.
-Tim-
God can show his glory and power to anyone he chooses. God’s glory is not limited to Jews before Christ and Catholics after Christ.
-Tim-
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rcwitness
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I agree, but maybe the question is more about at who`s hands these miracle worked worked through. Are there documented, in some credible way, miracles wrought through the hands of non Catholic Christians. Im not claiming belief one way or the other, and if I had to I would assume that God has worked miracles through the hands of Non Catholics. But I would be interested to see something of a credible source to confirm of one also.
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believerdoc
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If I may comment at this point upon your attitude concerning Protestant miracles.First nothing any Protestant on this forum can say will ever satisfy you as we have a completely different understanding, conception, and view of “miracles” and we do not place the same emphasis on them as you appear to apply. For us everything in life is a miracle: the sunrise, the rain fall, children…all miracles of God. The man or women cured of cancer through the medical intervention, the transplant of a kidney, etc. All miracles of God, Were they supernatural…no…were they unexplainable…no…were they sudden…no but all genuine miracles. God is the source of all good and perfect things. So when a person receives a cure through medical intervention it is a miracle. God works in many ways to accomplish his purposes here on earth; some sudden and unexplained and some expected and explainable. Are there sudden unexplainable cures…absolutely so we would praise God, thank him, share the news and move on. This is not the view of the your faith.Miracles are studied, debated, investigated, and finally verified. Those miracles are just as suspect, just as questionable as any other; I personally think too much emphasis is placed on them. After all in the end it is all about faith. As the old adage goes: for those who do not believe no explanation will do; for those that believe no explanation is necessary. As you know one of the hallmarks of Luther and the Reformation was the idea of relics. The over emphasis on miracles I believe would fit very closely into that category so as a result the documentation and emphasis on them is much less or non-existent in the Protestant church.
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Kliska
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Here’s my recommendation; go to local protestant congregations and ask (that’s for the OP doing research). Then if there is a claim, ask the person if they can talk to them, and then find out the story. If it is medical, ask if there is documented medical records of it, if so see if they will give consent to investigate it officially. In short, we protestants don’t tend to record private miracles officially for public consumption, so if someone is truly writing a book, they are going to have to do the actual leg work.
I know of people who have had tumors disappear, cancer disappear, etc… and yes, there were doctors as witnesses. You just have to ask because the culture is different. I know claims I believe are legit and I know claims that are a big ol’ crock.
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rcwitness
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I was involved in a prayer for my cousin, who was in a terrible accident. I just arrived at the hospitol and everyone in the family was in the lobby and we joined hands in prayer. The doctors came out immediately after the prayer and said ,Here’s my recommendation; go to local protestant congregations and ask (that’s for the OP doing research). Then if there is a claim, ask the person if they can talk to them, and then find out the story. If it is medical, ask if there is documented medical records of it, if so see if they will give consent to investigate it officially. In short, we protestants don’t tend to record private miracles officially for public consumption, so if someone is truly writing a book, they are going to have to do the actual leg work.
I know of people who have had tumors disappear, cancer disappear, etc… and yes, there were doctors as witnesses. You just have to ask because the culture is different. I know claims I believe are legit and I know claims that are a big ol’ crock.
We just had a miracle.Im not doubting that God delivers miraculous healing and intervention to all. I was the only Catholic there. I dont presume that it was only my faith which healed him, or even anyone in particular. I am happy that God healed him and we all prayed for that. Is that why he was healed, we dont know.
Some miracles are more evidently coming from an individual who touches or speaks for God to work a miracle and He does it. It is still out of His goodness, but the miracle is wrought through the person asking, without a doubt, such as the Apostles did. Are you saying that an individual whom you witnessed performed a miracle of God, with no other explanation? Not merely a miracle which happened to a non Catholic, but a non Catholic was the person God used to bring about the miracle?
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Kliska
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Well, I think that is another thing that is going to be a big difference between how a protestant describes what is going on vs. a Catholic. Protestants, in the main, don’t pray to or through a departed saint, who then is given credit for the miracle. A legit preacher/evangelist who has been the lightening rod for the miracle wouldn’t dream of “taking credit” in any way shape or form for a miracle done through them, nor would the rest see that person as “special.” All of the cultural differences between Catholics and protestants would, just organically, mean it is going to harder to force a protestant to “prove” a miracle.
Have I personally witnessed a miracle occur at the hands of an individual person, where I saw someone healed right in front of me? No. Do I know of this happening? Yes. From a source(s) and person (people) I trust? Yes. Non-Catholic preacher, non-Catholic healed. Several instances of different types miraculous happenings in line with scriptural gifts? Yes. Can I personally prove it, absolutely not. And since some seem to have issue with Pentecostal claims, this, and other happenings were non-Pentecostal nor even general charismatic happenings.
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Kliska
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I’m obviously struggling with how to explain this from a protestant perspective, so let me share one of my own personal experiences. I was seriously ill with something that had a lot of side effects, and repercussions beyond just the core medical issue. One of those effects happened to me every evening. I have “medical proof” of the main issue, and even the side issues were verified and verifiable, HOWEVER there is no way to show a direct cause and effect relationship that cannot be explained in a “scientific manner.”
Scripture says; *James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; *
And I felt called to obey that verse in this particular instance. Medicine and rest helped my main medical problem, but not all the side effects which continued on and on and on. For those, I called my elders, they met me, prayed over me, anointed me, etc… and I never had another issue. Now… can I prove that? No. I can show you the context was real, you could interview my elders, my husband, etc… but is there a recording or a read out on a computer or a medical device, no. Also, it is something that I wouldn’t even really call “miraculous” unless pushed, it is just a matter of fact, and God’s character to heal when, where, and through ever He chooses.
Can I come up with totally secular reason I was healed? Sure I could, but I know that they are not accurate. I know Who healed me, and it is, by nature, a subjective experience because there is no “hard proof.” I’m not special in and of myself, nor are the elders “special” in some way that makes them miraculous just because of who they are. It’s about obeying God in big and little things, and turning to Him in faith, it is all of Him. I had never felt drawn to have elders pray over me, this time it was clear that was what I was to do, I called them, they did what scripture says, and it worked.
Scripture says; *James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; *
And I felt called to obey that verse in this particular instance. Medicine and rest helped my main medical problem, but not all the side effects which continued on and on and on. For those, I called my elders, they met me, prayed over me, anointed me, etc… and I never had another issue. Now… can I prove that? No. I can show you the context was real, you could interview my elders, my husband, etc… but is there a recording or a read out on a computer or a medical device, no. Also, it is something that I wouldn’t even really call “miraculous” unless pushed, it is just a matter of fact, and God’s character to heal when, where, and through ever He chooses.
Can I come up with totally secular reason I was healed? Sure I could, but I know that they are not accurate. I know Who healed me, and it is, by nature, a subjective experience because there is no “hard proof.” I’m not special in and of myself, nor are the elders “special” in some way that makes them miraculous just because of who they are. It’s about obeying God in big and little things, and turning to Him in faith, it is all of Him. I had never felt drawn to have elders pray over me, this time it was clear that was what I was to do, I called them, they did what scripture says, and it worked.
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benjohnson
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This discussion reminds me of a few time I’ve seen here at CAF where I’ve seen Catholics have subjugated the Eucharist to scientific testing. Lutherans just don’t do this.
I’m not saying one way is right or one way is wrong - but the Lutherans perspective about such testing falls along the lines of Luke 4:12.
I’m not saying one way is right or one way is wrong - but the Lutherans perspective about such testing falls along the lines of Luke 4:12.
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Per_Crucem
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When two Lutherans agree on something, that is a current Protestant miracle.
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benjohnson
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Oh yeah? Of course you’d say that!
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Kliska
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eazyduzit
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I love Miracles because they demonstrate how much Jesus cares for us. I have experienced healing from arthritis. Adamski, you say there are no “Protestant” miracles. I don’t even know what Protestant really is, except that it is non-catholic. I am Pentecostal. From my perspective, the supernatural should be normal. Perhaps you have never heard of evangelist Reinhardt Bonke? Pastor Mel Bond? However, we do not need a superstar to generate a miracle. If you would check out the web page for Andrew Wommack Ministries (AWMI.NET) There are about 60 healing testimonies and financial miracles recorded for viewing. Many of these are not directly a result of Andrew, but they are about the bible college students ministering to others, one on one.
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robwar
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I was a former Protestant and was involved in Charismatic Churches that taught these things. This isn’t a question about if the sunrise is a miracle. Op is trying to write a book. I think the better chapter would be not if there are miracles in Protestant churches but the difference between documentation between Protestant and Catholic. Most of the the “healing ministries” that are out there have very poor documentation and they usually go by word of mouth in order to promote their “healing” ministries. There also have been a number of cases of fraud with these things. Have you ever notice that the recorded miracles of healing which is what we are mostly talking about Jesus told the people that He healed to go to the priests and present themselves and offer a sacrifice. He told and warned repeated the people He healed not to tell others. Why do you think this was? One angle of this is that word of mouth can get out of hand and prevented Jesus from entering towns due to the size of the crowd. The other is to document with the priest the healing. It 's nice you want to say “Protestants” have a different view or stand but you forget that big sections of Protestantism deny miracles and healings as for today or that the recorded ones in the Bible are stories and myths. I’ve been there and even in Charismatic Churches that teach miracles do not have as many “real” big ones as you would think or as they lead others to believe.
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robwar
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The testimonies offer are just that, word of mouth. They probably could be true for the most part but the problem with these types of ministries is that what is put on their web sites are used to promote themselves and what they taught. 700 club does this very well as an example. There is nothing to prove anything as accurate and true. I use to attend a WoF church and I remember in one of the small groups I attended, a man said that since we believe and teach miracles here, why don’t we see more of them. His questions was shut down very fast as someone that has doubts. But he actually had an honest question and observation. If you think that the supernatural should be normal, why don’t you really see that in the Churches that constantly preach that? You don’t. What I’ve have found is that the Catholic Church has the balance here. Yes, God still heals today, yes there are miracles and healings as a result of prayers and finally and if so it can be documented with real Dr.s and scientists not just word of mouth and on the surface testimonies.
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rcwitness
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Thats good, light hearted fellowship.I, dont know any Catholic approved subjecting Eucharist to a scientific test. I consider that sacriligeous. Nor would I demand or expect people to prove their miracles to other people, for their own benefit. But it becomes a different story when people are sharing and testifying that a miracle occured which has a particular message in addition to the direct benefit of the miracle. If a man has supposedly healed someone or performed something miraculous and goes on to preach a certain Gospel with doctrines, then these supposed miracles are being used to support that persons ministry. To me, that rightly deserves as much evidence as can be provided. But if the miracle was done and those involved were content to give thanks to God and not use it as a means to evangelize, then that is good as well.
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Wildkit
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I believe our Lord performs miraculous items for Protestants, but these seem to be “private” miracles or ones that can not be substantiated. When I see the events in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, I ask myself, is someone trying to tell me something???
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Kliska
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I agree with this.
It seems on the thread, that it doesn’t matter if protestants testify of actual medical miracles, without a catch, without trying to sell snake oil, it doesn’t seem to be good enough. What I’m saying is; if the OP is actually writing a book, they need to go speak to protestant congregations and ask face-to-face. Mainstream congregations would probably be preferable, meaning I would avoid “healing ministries.” The op may be surprised when they talk with people that have had medical doctors scratching their heads. That would be, I believe, the respectful thing to do. Again, most protestants simply do not feel the same need to have everything verified and verified again, because most are private happenings that have no need of being publicized in some type of sensational ways, in fact the ones that do that often are attention seeking hoaxes.
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Adamski
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The miricles I find in protestantism is similar to the one in Lourdes such as healings through prayer this book will be directed to non Christians. This book will be more directed toward physical miricles such as the cloth a guadalupe should only last 30 years and it has lasted 500 or Luciano, the 1000 year old blood is in the composition of a living person, miricles that are tangible and defy science. I don’t see that is protestantism but if they exist I would like to include themI agree with this.
It seems on the thread, that it doesn’t matter if protestants testify of actual medical miracles, without a catch, without trying to sell snake oil, it doesn’t seem to be good enough. What I’m saying is; if the OP is actually writing a book, they need to go speak to protestant congregations and ask face-to-face. Mainstream congregations would probably be preferable, meaning I would avoid “healing ministries.” The op may be surprised when they talk with people that have had medical doctors scratching their heads. That would be, I believe, the respectful thing to do. Again, most protestants simply do not feel the same need to have everything verified and verified again, because most are private happenings that have no need of being publicized in some type of sensational ways, in fact the ones that do that often are attention seeking hoaxes.
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Adamski
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I agree
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