Current Trends in Catholic Philosophy?

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You continue to miss my point…while all the sources you’ve indicated declare that the Roman pontiff is infallible in matters of faith and morals, the fact remains infallibility HAS ONLY BEEN DECLARED IN TWO INSTANCES and both of them refer to the Marian dogmas.

There have been no infallible pronunciations beyond these. Read Fr. Timothy McConnell’s book Principles of Catholic Moral Theology, Ch. 8 on conscience.

I’d also be very careful about my sources. The link on CA is to the 1917 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia…not the 1968 New Catholic Encyclopedia.
 
Pope John Paul II
In a Nov. 24 address to members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Pope John Paul II expressed regret that many Catholics apparently think they are at liberty to dismiss doctrines they don’t agree with unless it is formally stated that they are infallibly proposed.

Different teachings do have different degrees of authority, he said. But he added, “That does not authorize people to think that pronouncements and doctrinal decisions of the magisterium require irrevocable assent only when it presents them with a solemn judgment or definitive act.”
**
CCC**
Papal infallibility means that the pope is protected from error when he “proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals” (CCC 891).

This Rock
Concerning the infallibility question, the pope doesn’t need to proclaim ex cathedra the teaching that artificial means of birth control is wrong; it’s already an infallible teaching of the Church by virtue of the ordinary and universal magisterium.

For further clarification on this issue, please see “What Is the Magisterium?” by Thomas Storck at www.catholic.net.
 
We’re experiencing a communication problem.

Moral norms are one thing…surely the scriptures and the magesterium teach infallibly in these areas.

Where difficulty lies is in the concrete, everyday lives of people and the choices they’re confronted with. There are any number of factors which affect people as they engage in moral decision-making.

What people are required to do is think with the church and then make the best decisions they can.

As an example…a nun I know of was kidnapped, tortured and gang-raped by the U.S. backed military regime in Guatemala in the 1980’s. After several days she managed to escape and returned home to her religous community in the US. She was psychologically devastated and her faith in shambles. It was discovered she had become impregnated by these sick, sick people. She was in utterly no condition to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a child. In the end she with the support of her community decided abortion was the best option.

The moral norm claims abortion is a grave and serious act worthy of condemndation. Now one gets to the nitty gritty of admittedly extreme cases like this and all of sudden “black and white” thinking goes astray…

Do you see what the church is pointing too? The moral norm is the ideal…in our decision-making we operate in less-than simple circumstances and must make the best choices we can while living in the shadow of moral norms…

Does this help?
 
We’re experiencing a communication problem.

Moral norms are one thing…surely the scriptures and the magesterium teach infallibly in these areas.

Where difficulty lies is in the concrete, everyday lives of people and the choices they’re confronted with. There are any number of factors which affect people as they engage in moral decision-making.

What people are required to do is think with the church and then make the best decisions they can.

As an example…a nun I know of was kidnapped, tortured and gang-raped by the U.S. backed military regime in Guatemala in the 1980’s. After several days she managed to escape and returned home to her religous community in the US. She was psychologically devastated and her faith in shambles. It was discovered she had become impregnated by these sick, sick people. She was in utterly no condition to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a child. In the end she with the support of her community decided abortion was the best option.

The moral norm claims abortion is a grave and serious act worthy of condemndation. Now one gets to the nitty gritty of admittedly extreme cases like this and all of sudden “black and white” thinking goes astray…

Do you see what the church is pointing too? The moral norm is the ideal…in our decision-making we operate in less-than simple circumstances and must make the best choices we can while living in the shadow of moral norms…

Does this help?
In this case the black and white thought that abortion doesn’t heal wounds, doesn’t fix problems, it kills an innocent human being, goes astray?? Because you and some nuns say so?? So moral norms aren’t really normative, they’re just generalized best-case-scenario unless-the-going-gets-tough recommendations?? That is way off. With due respect, you really don’t understand basic Catholic teaching if that’s what you think.
You continue to miss my point…while all the sources you’ve indicated declare that the Roman pontiff is infallible in matters of faith and morals, the fact remains infallibility HAS ONLY BEEN DECLARED IN TWO INSTANCES and both of them refer to the Marian dogmas.
You seem to miss the rather elementary point itinerant1 made about the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church. To clarify, hopefully: this expression of the Church’s teaching authority is also infallible and the pope does not, would not, and will not make special declarations (as in the case of the Marian dogmas) of infallibly taught doctrines that are already recognized as falling under the scope of the ordinary and universal magisterium. When the pope points out that a teaching falls under the scope of the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church, he is telling us that there is no need for a special exercise of *papal *infallibility on the matter - precisely because the matter has already been clearly decided and is already an infallible teaching. I hope that clears up some of the confusion.
 
Yes, so EVERY situation in which a moral decision is considered is ABSOLUTELY the same? If that were the case there would be no need for trained confessors…all one would have to do is…mindlessly follow the CCC - right?

There are degrees of moral culpability whether you may or may not want to acknowledge or admit it Roman Catholicism takes a profoundly sophisticated moral perspective and not some mindless fundamentalism.

This has nothing to do with being a “cafe Catholic” or “disrespectful of the magersterium”…its’s been an adult living in a complicated world where things aren’t so black and white.

I’m all for heroic self-sacrifice - I’m not for self-destruction which you seem to confuse with self-sacrifice.
 
What John Paul observes refers to people who do not even bother to follow the moral norms. The norms provide the moral guidelines along which we need to think and decide. It may be the case that in thinking WITH the church (that is following the norms) we find areas of disagreement in the concrete everyday matter of living and choosing.

A simple example…the 4th commandment about loving one’s parents ultimately has implications with the role of authority figures in our lives.

A man driving his pregnant and dilating wife to the hospital comes across a speed limit sign restricting safe traveling speed to 25 miles an hour. In his hurry to get his pregnant wife to the hospital he exceeds the speed limit to get her there before she gives birth. Is he immoral?

or

Imagine living in Haiti (or any equally impoverished country after a severe natural disaster leaving thousands dead, the national infrastructure in sheer chaos, etc) Relief supplies have not been distributed properly or fairly. Is it wrong to steal food to keep his family alive provided there are no other options for him or his family to meet these basic needs?

The problem with your claim is you completely fail to take into conditions in which people must make decisions. The more extreme the conditions the less firmly the norms may apply. It’s a reason why there is a distinction between venial and moral sin - degrees of gravity, willfulness and consent must be taken into consideration. It’s not simply “this” or “that”

I know I will be accused of relativism…but that’s not what relativism is. Relativism holds nothing as normative. The examples I offer are intended to help one explore the application of norms to daily experiences which can be - not always - but can be very complicated.

That’s my point…
 
We’re experiencing a communication problem.

Moral norms are one thing…surely the scriptures and the magesterium teach infallibly in these areas.

Where difficulty lies is in the concrete, everyday lives of people and the choices they’re confronted with. There are any number of factors which affect people as they engage in moral decision-making.

What people are required to do is think with the church and then make the best decisions they can.

As an example…a nun I know of was kidnapped, tortured and gang-raped by the U.S. backed military regime in Guatemala in the 1980’s. After several days she managed to escape and returned home to her religous community in the US. She was psychologically devastated and her faith in shambles. It was discovered she had become impregnated by these sick, sick people. She was in utterly no condition to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a child. In the end she with the support of her community decided abortion was the best option.

The moral norm claims abortion is a grave and serious act worthy of condemndation. Now one gets to the nitty gritty of admittedly extreme cases like this and all of sudden “black and white” thinking goes astray…

Do you see what the church is pointing too? The moral norm is the ideal…in our decision-making we operate in less-than simple circumstances and must make the best choices we can while living in the shadow of moral norms…

Does this help?
You have not provided any reputable sources that support your position. Perhaps there aren’t any.

Also, descriptions of individual situations that you like to give, are not supportive of your assertions about infallibility. They are merely particular situations in which the norm is to be applied. And this can be difficult in many situations to determine just how it applies. However, that is a different track. But as far as the situation is concerned with the nun, all I can say is that pre-natal child murder is not solution to rape. For the most tragic victim of rape, it just adds the additional burden of the guilt for murder. My point is that I cannot even agree with your application of moral norms to individual circumstances.

Perhaps this subject of infallibility and moral norms is more personal with you than just theological understanding, in that there are some things in your life you are wrestling with as far as your conscience is concerned. 🤷

Nonetheless, you claim infallibility has only been invoked in the case of Marian doctrines. That is an overly narrow and false understanding of infallibility, which the sources and quotes I provided make clear. In addition, you have contradicted yourself when you said “surely the scriptures and the magesterium teach infallibly in these areas.”

Well, if the popes teach infallibly in these areas, as they in fact do, why then are you claiming that only Marian doctrines have been infallibly proclaimed? We have a real problem here.

Furthermore, if you are familiar with the theological writings of the popes who made infallible declarations regarding Mary, you will find that they do not agree at all with your personal views on infallibility (again, this is a different issue than the application of the norm to individual circumstances).

I still challenge you to bring in some reputable theologians to support your opinion about infallibility, though I see that you are now involved in a fundamental contradiction in this area… So, your position is no longer clear.

My personal view is that you need to give this subject serious research and thought before you formulate any position or opinions.
 
We’re experiencing a communication problem.

Moral norms are one thing…surely the scriptures and the magesterium teach infallibly in these areas.

Where difficulty lies is in the concrete, everyday lives of people and the choices they’re confronted with. There are any number of factors which affect people as they engage in moral decision-making.

What people are required to do is think with the church and then make the best decisions they can.

As an example…a nun I know of was kidnapped, tortured and gang-raped by the U.S. backed military regime in Guatemala in the 1980’s. After several days she managed to escape and returned home to her religous community in the US. She was psychologically devastated and her faith in shambles. It was discovered she had become impregnated by these sick, sick people. She was in utterly no condition to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a child. In the end she with the support of her community decided abortion was the best option.

The moral norm claims abortion is a grave and serious act worthy of condemndation. Now one gets to the nitty gritty of admittedly extreme cases like this and all of sudden “black and white” thinking goes astray…

Do you see what the church is pointing too? The moral norm is the ideal…in our decision-making we operate in less-than simple circumstances and must make the best choices we can while living in the shadow of moral norms…

Does this help?
I see a number of problems with your reasoning.

You acknowledge that the moral norm is the ideal, but then you effectively disregard the norm with the idea that we “must make best choices we can while living in the shadow of moral norms.” If such choices are in clear and indirect conflict with the norm then how is that you can say you are abiding by the norm?

Christ said “Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect”. But according to the logic of your argument Christ is requiring of us something that is not possible. Yet He promised us the grace to will the good that we should will, and to do the good that we should do.

Take for instance, your story about a nun who had an abortion. Did she have a choice in the matter? If so, did she think something good would be accomplished by having an abortion? Apparently so. However, St. Paul says we cannot do evil that good may come from it. In modern ethical parlance, we say the end does not justify the means.

What were the means in this case? Killing a pre-natal child. Pre-natal child murder has never resolved rape. It does not undo the fact that a rape has occurred. It does not undo the severe trauma of rape. What it does is add the guilt of murder to the victim’s already existing emotional trauma. The problem has thus been severely compounded.

Perhaps you are not yet an ethical relativist, but what you are describing is a situation ethics that borders on a practical relativism, though theoretically you still admit to objective norms. Perhaps the likes of Charles Curran would agree with your logic, but the Church has formally disagreed with Charles Curran.

In “What’s Wrong With the World”, G.K. Chesterton says, “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.” Christianity does not say we are to apply the moral norms the best we can to individual situations, and just leave it at that. Application of moral norms to the particular requires a well-formed conscience. We are called to form our consciences in Catholic moral teaching. Furthermore, a competent spiritual adviser should be resorted to in difficult moral situations.

I once met a young Catholic lady at a pro-life convention. She had two young twin boys. The father of her boys was her drug-crazed brother who raped her. Yet, she found the courage in Christ to give birth to the twins and to tell people that the father of her children is her brother. I think her courage is absolutely heroic. And so she was a marvelous witness for the pro-life cause. She is most happy that she did not choose to abort. The twins were absolutely adorable.

How could she have been better off spiritually and emotionally if she had aborted the twins and publicly concealed the fact she was raped by her brother? She took the norm “Thou shalt not kill” most seriously.
 
Read Fr. Timothy O’Connell’s Principles of Catholic Morality, Ch. 8 on conscience.

You may also with to consult Fr. Richard Gula “What are They Saying About Moral Norms”.

Yes, of course you apply moral norms to situations…but situations aren’t black and white nor is the person making a decisions in the midst of them. Unless I’ve missed something human beings are not robots or Spock-like creatures who are unaffected by situations and interior crises.

You can see absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between a woman who is raped by a drug-crazed person and one who has been brutally PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY TORTURED and GANG RAPED, left to die and who only manages to escape by the grace of God; who makes her way back to her mother house in such a devastated state that she had to be hospitalize for several weeks and then spent MONTHS recuperating?

Perhaps seeing a psychologist or spiritual director and discussing scrupulosity would be of assistance for you my well-intentioned friend.
 
Read Fr. Timothy O’Connell’s Principles of Catholic Morality, Ch. 8 on conscience.

You may also with to consult Fr. Richard Gula “What are They Saying About Moral Norms”.

Yes, of course you apply moral norms to situations…but situations aren’t black and white nor is the person making a decisions in the midst of them. Unless I’ve missed something human beings are not robots or Spock-like creatures who are unaffected by situations and interior crises.

You can see absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between a woman who is raped by a drug-crazed person and one who has been brutally PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY TORTURED and GANG RAPED, left to die and who only manages to escape by the grace of God; who makes her way back to her mother house in such a devastated state that she had to be hospitalize for several weeks and then spent MONTHS recuperating?

Perhaps seeing a psychologist or spiritual director and discussing scrupulosity would be of assistance for you my well-intentioned friend.
I don’t think itinerant1 was too scrupulous. On the other hand, I think that the nun who aborted the issue of rape and beating, was in no shape to make a decision and went with the flow of her Sisters’ advice. In this, I see the use of lethal force for self defense in that particular abortion.

As far as gray areas, not black and white, that’s why we have the Holy Spirit, Holy Scriptures, Magisterial teachings and Tradition: to shed enough light into those gray areas so that the gray is illuminated away and we see the black and white exposed. So, there’s no excuse for people to plead gray areas, imho.

I think the woman who had the twins that issued from her brother’s rape did the right thing. I think that the nun who was beaten and gang raped did what she had to do; which was wrong; and God forgave her the murder. So, now her heart can heal.
I saw no condemnation from intinerant1’s addressing her situation.

As it says in Ecclesiastes Chap 3,3, “A time to kill, and a time to heal;”. In this instance, I think the killing and healing were intertwined.
 
Read Fr. Timothy O’Connell’s Principles of Catholic Morality, Ch. 8 on conscience.

You may also with to consult Fr. Richard Gula “What are They Saying About Moral Norms”.

Yes, of course you apply moral norms to situations…but situations aren’t black and white nor is the person making a decisions in the midst of them. Unless I’ve missed something human beings are not robots or Spock-like creatures who are unaffected by situations and interior crises.

You can see absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between a woman who is raped by a drug-crazed person and one who has been brutally PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY TORTURED and GANG RAPED, left to die and who only manages to escape by the grace of God; who makes her way back to her mother house in such a devastated state that she had to be hospitalize for several weeks and then spent MONTHS recuperating?

Perhaps seeing a psychologist or spiritual director and discussing scrupulosity would be of assistance for you my well-intentioned friend.
You have conveniently deviated from the subject of papal infallibility; declined to cite any reputable authorities that might support your personal opinions on infallibility; declined to address the blatant contradiction in your opinion on infallibility; displayed a naive understanding of morality, and then topped off your sophomoric posts with a nonsensical *ad baculum *comment.

In light of the foregoing problems, I am unsubscribing from this thread, so as not to waste any more of my time.
 
I don’t think itinerant1 was too scrupulous. On the other hand, I think that the nun who aborted the issue of rape and beating, was in no shape to make a decision and went with the flow of her Sisters’ advice. In this, I see the use of lethal force for self defense in that particular abortion.

As far as gray areas, not black and white, that’s why we have the Holy Spirit, Holy Scriptures, Magisterial teachings and Tradition: to shed enough light into those gray areas so that the gray is illuminated away and we see the black and white exposed. So, there’s no excuse for people to plead gray areas, imho.

I think the woman who had the twins that issued from her brother’s rape did the right thing. I think that the nun who was beaten and gang raped did what she had to do; which was wrong; and God forgave her the murder. So, now her heart can heal.
I saw no condemnation from intinerant1’s addressing her situation.

As it says in Ecclesiastes Chap 3,3, “A time to kill, and a time to heal;”. In this instance, I think the killing and healing were intertwined.
How could I have forgotten to highlight the fact you have even descended to making an ad hominem argument? And I would call you on your other logical fallacies but even this much proves to be a waste of my time.
 
Mr. Snow, I appreciate your willingness to inject some sense of mercy into this discussion although we disagree about “gray areas”. I certainly am not privy to all the discussions this nun’s religious community had leading to their support of her decision to abort, but I’d find it hard to believe a group of women whose lives are dedicated to prayer and service didn’t pray and agonize over this decision. Nor do I assume for one minute that it was made lightly.

I only become irritated when I hear simplistic and merciless responses to people suffering in utterly horrible situations. I really don’t think any of us can appreciate what someone like this nun may have been going through. Thank God we have merciful confessors in our church.
 
Mr. Snow, I appreciate your willingness to inject some sense of mercy into this discussion although we disagree about “gray areas”. I certainly am not privy to all the discussions this nun’s religious community had leading to their support of her decision to abort, but I’d find it hard to believe a group of women whose lives are dedicated to prayer and service didn’t pray and agonize over this decision. Nor do I assume for one minute that it was made lightly.

I only become irritated when I hear simplistic and merciless responses to people suffering in utterly horrible situations. I really don’t think any of us can appreciate what someone like this nun may have been going through. Thank God we have merciful confessors in our church.
Well, we’re in the same pew, on this.
 
How could I have forgotten to highlight the fact you have even descended to making an ad hominem argument? And I would call you on your other logical fallacies but even this much proves to be a waste of my time.
What ad hominum argument?

I have no earthly idea what your comments apply to.
 
Yes, so EVERY situation in which a moral decision is considered is ABSOLUTELY the same? If that were the case there would be no need for trained confessors…all one would have to do is…mindlessly follow the CCC - right?
I’m not sure to whom this rather silly comment is supposed to be addressed (me, I guess?) but obviously one can’t (and *a fortiori *shouldn’t) “mindlessly follow the CCC” - one should mindfully follow it. Which obviously includes…
There are degrees of moral culpability whether you may or may not want to acknowledge or admit it Roman Catholicism takes a profoundly sophisticated moral perspective and not some mindless fundamentalism.
…recognizing degrees of moral culpability and excludes condoning the intentional killing of innocent human beings… and distinguishes between the question of objective wrongness and that of subjective culpability. I repeat, you seem to have some very basic misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine.
This has nothing to do with being a “cafe Catholic” or “disrespectful of the magersterium”…its’s been an adult living in a complicated world where things aren’t so black and white.
I’m all for heroic self-sacrifice - I’m not for self-destruction which you seem to confuse with self-sacrifice.
Maybe you’re not a “cafeteria Catholic,” which would connote intentional disregard of portions of Church teaching, but you’re at the very least a “confused Catholic.”

p.s.: Relativism is *not *the claim that nothing is normative.
 
What ad hominum argument?

I have no earthly idea what your comments apply to.
Perhaps it was misdirected to you and was meant to apply to TPW’s comment: “Perhaps seeing a psychologist or spiritual director and discussing scrupulosity would be of assistance for you my well-intentioned friend.”
In this, I see the use of lethal force for self defense in that particular abortion.
I think that the nun who was beaten and gang raped did what she had to do; which was wrong; and God forgave her the murder. So, now her heart can heal.
Questions: In what sense did she have to do what was wrong? How was killing an innocent child “self-defense”? Do you want to claim she was she defending her “psychological health,” although not in a legitimate way? But why call it self-defense at all, if you recognize it, objectively speaking, as murder?
 
Perhaps it was misdirected to you and was meant to apply to TPW’s comment: “Perhaps seeing a psychologist or spiritual director and discussing scrupulosity would be of assistance for you my well-intentioned friend.”
Thank you, Betterave,

I’m sure now that what you have written is the case.
Questions: In what sense did she have to do what was wrong? How was killing an innocent child “self-defense”? Do you want to claim she was she defending her “psychological health,” although not in a legitimate way? But why call it self-defense at all, if you recognize it, objectively speaking, as murder?
Ummm, these are some tough questions.

First, I am against abortion. I do think that in cases of incest and some rapes, it is necessary to kill the unborn infant. It’s wrong, but necessary for the mother’s sake.

Second, I don’t know what emotional, spiritual and mental process she and her sisters went through, because of her physical condition.

And, I also submit, that right now we are discussing something that is leaving a poor woman scarred for life, and I would like to drop it. Also, we have strayed from the OP.
 
donsnow

First, I am against abortion. I do think that in cases of incest and some rapes, it is necessary to kill the unborn infant. It’s wrong, but necessary for the mother’s sake.

Why is it necessary for the mother to kill the child? So that she can guilt trip the rest of her life?

What did the child do to deserve the death penalty?
 
donsnow

First, I am against abortion. I do think that in cases of incest and some rapes, it is necessary to kill the unborn infant. It’s wrong, but necessary for the mother’s sake.

Why is it necessary for the mother to kill the child? So that she can guilt trip the rest of her life?

What did the child do to deserve the death penalty?
I don’t know why it’s sometimes necessary, it differs from case to case. As far as blaming her, if she is sorrowful for having the unborn child slayed, I’m sure that God forgives her. I think you should try to forgive her, too.

The child did nothing to deserve the death penalty.

Can we drop this, now?
 
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