Currently non-religious making inquiry

[Viator]

Hi, I hope I’m posting in the right forum. I don’t see a separate forum for inquirers.

Anyway, I’m currently non-religious. Haven’t been to church in a long time. I was practicing Eastern Orthodox for nearly 20 years and had an experience there so horrific it pretty much killed it for me. I’m not here to bash Orthodoxy, but I am here because I feel like the only way to salvage my Christianity (if that’s possible) is in the Catholic Church. I am fortunate in that I live in an area where Eastern Catholicism is big, so that’s likely where I’d land. In fact I do intend to go to some liturgies close by and engage with the priest for a lot of my questions.

In either case, I’m currently trying to practice a sort of principled humanism, studying a lot of philosophy, considering the place of religion in the human experience. I keep running up against the fact that God has never really been a real experience for me. My religious experiences in retrospect were mostly very beautiful aesthetic experiences, but if I’m honest they were mostly fictions that I created out of my own needs. To me this doesn’t seem like anything other than a subtle kind of idolatry.

So, my first question is this – How do you know when it’s real? I’d appreciate answers from practicing Catholics only, please, Latin or Eastern Rite, as that’s why I’m here. I’m not interested in arguing with other non-religious people or fighting with any practicing Orthodox members.

Thanks in advance,
Viator

 

[EZweber]

So, my first question is this – How do you know when it’s real?

The short answer is you don’t. If I am correct in assuming that you mean aesthetic experiences such as visions, you don’t. That said, there are criteria for determining where an experience came from. One of the wonderful things about Catholicism is that it is not dependent on subjective experience. Are you looking for the criteria to decide where an experience came from?

 

[Viator]

Thanks so much for your reply.

By aesthetic experience I mean simply being moved by the music, the art, the candlelight, incense, etc. No, I’ve never experienced a vision. I think what I keep tripping over is that there are similar moving experiences to be had from going to a museum, the symphony, etc. Hope that clarifies what I mean.

 

[EZweber]

Thanks so much for your reply.

By aesthetic experience I mean simply being moved by the music, the art, the candlelight, incense, etc. No, I’ve never experienced a vision. I think what I keep tripping over is that there are similar moving experiences to be had from going to a museum, the symphony, etc. Hope that clarifies what I mean.

As far as feeling goes, I am never certain that it is from God. However, feeling is, to me at least, a nice extra. If it makes loving God easier, then I am usually open to it. The important part is love of God. Saints have been through periods of emotional dryness and still loved God with all of their being.

 

[Viator]

Yes, I agree. There’s a paradox at work in my opinion. All of that external experience is very much an important part of our humanity, and Christianity is nothing if not fully human in a sense. The liturgical and the sacramental life would have to be there in order to make it an experience that sort of redeems the flesh. To me this seems most consistent with traditional Christianity’s belief in the Incarnation.

I guess it really does come down to, do I believe it or don’t I? The essential question of faith. I suppose I have yet to receive that gift.

EZweber, have you ever felt like you were faking it, if you don’t mind so personal a question?

 

[prayerrider]

As a writer, some of my work feels more inspired by an aesthetic experience that centers on God. Dali’s Catholic art has been a huge inspiration; a poem that was recently accepted for a Johns Hopkins U. journal was inspired by Rodin’s sculpture of John the Baptist. So I would disinguish aesthetic experiences with secular vs. Christian art. I think the latter can approach a sense of religious awe that the former never can.

 

[EZweber]

EZweber, have you ever felt like you were faking it, if you don’t mind so personal a question?

Felt? Yes. I am fortunate enough to have an excellent rearing in Catholicism, and I am a nerd whose feelings are very heavily influenced by my intellect though, so if I ever feel that Catholicism might be false, my brain immediately asks “What, exactly is the basis for this?” and it usually vanishes. However you might be interested in the story of St. Teresa of Calcutta. She spent the greater part of her life with almost no emotional faith… It’s amazing. To be honest, I don’t know if I could do that. It is comforting to remember that God will always make sure that you have all you need.

 

[Viator]

prayerrider thank you for your response.

I would agree that there does seem to be a qualitative difference in the experience of Christian vs secular art. Or I’d even put a finer point on it and say that there is art the speaks to the truth of our experience and uplifts us and art that seeks to denigrate.

 

[Viator]

However you might be interested in the story of St. Teresa of Calcutta. She spent the greater part of her life with almost no emotional faith… It’s amazing. To be honest, I don’t know if I could do that. It is comforting to remember that God will always make sure that you have all you need.

Yes, I’ve read Come Be My Light. Powerful stuff.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Hi, Latin Rite here.
I’m afraid this answer may not help you, but Jesus has never been anything other than real for me. He’s as real as my parents or my aunts and uncles and friends. Same for Mary, Joseph, and of course the saints, who were once real people living ordinary lives.

And often, trying to be religious is not aesthetically pretty or pleasant. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is humdrum drudgery or it feels boring or awful or gets you yelled at or mocked or left out.

When you really give yourself over to Jesus, you tend to get encouragement from Jesus, but it can be hard to grasp and sometimes you don’t get it when you want it. It doesn’t make it any more or less real when you do or don’t get encouragement, though.

 

[EZweber]

I guess it really does come down to, do I believe it or don’t I? The essential question of faith. I suppose I have yet to receive that gift.

Even though I was raised Catholic, and raised very well as a Catholic, I would say that I was never really religious till I was 13 or 14. What happened was I fell in love with the logic of Catholicism, and I decided to start praying more often. Then I got a spiritual director, who suggested I make a Marian consecration. Six months after that, I was long gone and wildly in love (agape) with Christ and his Blessed Mother. In short, I highly recommend prayer, study, spiritual direction, and last but certainly not least, Marian consecration. If you live that out, emotional gifts will come when you need them.

 

[Viator]

And often, trying to be religious is not aesthetically pretty or pleasant.

No it certainly isn’t. I would agree that the practice of faith in the workaday world would be a fight for your life. Thanks so much for your response.

I think one of the things that’s given me pause is the experience of coming to the realization that my practice in the past has blinded me to things I should have seen happening in my life. To me that’s left me with this big question that I haven’t answered yet.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I decided to start praying more often. Then I got a spiritual director, who suggested I make a Marian consecration. Six months after that, I was long gone and wildly in love (agape) with Christ and his Blessed Mother.

I can say from my experience that starting any kind of serious prayer regimen is likely to cause all kinds of stuff to happen in one’s life. You want to pray more. You get more jazzed about spending time with Jesus and Mary than a lot of other stuff. You miss it on the days you don’t get to pray. In my case, occasional mystical things happen though not everybody gets that.

Prayer is incredibly powerful. Most of the world doesn’t get that.

 

[Viator]

I highly recommend prayer, study, spiritual direction, and last but certainly not least, Marian consecration.

Oddly, Mama Mary (as I’ve always liked to call her) is one part of my past experience that’s a very real mystery, as the prayers to her always seemed to have the strongest effect. It’s partly why I know that if I find my way back, I’d never consider Christianity that isn’t Marian. In fact, I’d probably be most likely to start by saying, “Mama, help.”

 

[TheLittleLady]

How do you know when it’s real?

The Church teaches that God can be known by the light of human reason. So, first, I used my human reason to know that God is real.

After that, a deep study of history and Scripture convinced me that Christ came to start a Church and that Church is the Catholic Church.

 

[Viator]

So, first, I used my human reason to know that God is real.

Thank you so much for your response. If you don’t mind, could you explain how your reason helped you? I’ve read Aquinas and his five rational proofs, didn’t really find them convincing apart from faith that would have already been there.

Thanks

 

[on_the_hill]

How do you know when it’s real?

I’ve always assumed that it is, it has always been real to me, and I never had any serious doubts. That won’t help you much, I’m afraid, unless you can simply go with it.

There have been only a few moments in my life where I truly felt a Holy presence, where it was so real and overwhelming that I didn’t even realize it at the time because I was “in” the moment.

However, if I had waited for moments like those, or expected those moments, they never would’ve happened.

 

[EZweber]

Thank you so much for your response. If you don’t mind, could you explain how your reason helped you? I’ve read Aquinas and his five rational proofs, didn’t really find them convincing apart from faith that would have already been there.

Thanks

Well I’ll start with the argument from contingency. Everything you see is contingent, that is, receives it’s existence from something else. This could not go on indefinitely, so there has to be a non contingent being. This is called God. What exactly is the objection to this?
PS. I strongly recommend that you read the Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli. Among other things, they provide 20 different arguments for the existence of God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Say it now and she’ll definitely help you.

 

[Viator]

There have been only a few moments in my life where I truly felt a Holy presence

Thank you for your response. If you don’t mind a bit of prying into your devotional life, are you a practitioner of Eucharistic Adoration? I’ve always been interested in this practice, as I’ve heard that it’s a very powerful experience.