Daily Mass questions re altar servers and EHMCs

[choose_to_love]

OK, kind of a long-drawn out thing here. My bride and our kids attend daily Mass most days at our local parish. My son is now old enough to serve, and he does serve often. However, there appears to be some confusion as to the roles of all those assisting at Mass, in whatever capacity, as I will try to describe.
Historically it appears that the EHMCs were also essentially functioning as acolytes, or perhaps it is more accurate to say as altar servers. Prior to my son being trained as an altar server, I do not think there were altar-server-aged kids attending daily Mass too often, as school is already in session or close to it (we homeschool).
Anyhoo, the EHMCs seem to be very reluctant to let my son actually serve at the altar. They also do not like to let the deacon, when he is there, prepare the altar either. I don’t think I am using the terms entirely correctly, but I hope you get the idea. They want to set the altar and assist the priest. It has gotten to the point where the other day one of the usual EHMCs was sitting in the first pew, although she was not serving, and she slid down that pew and was whispering to the EHMCs “you go set the table”. On the day this happened, a deacon was present along with my son. One of the EHMCs tried to quiet the first lady. Unfortunately we were right behind them, and I think both my bride and I leaned over the pew to say, no, the deacon is there (thinking may be they forgot the procedure?). One of the EHMCs turned around to my wife and said, “Incorrect! Each church does it differently” and something like “until you interfered” because we had addressed letting my son actually serve with Fr. (the assistant pastor) before.

Fr. takes the position, I think, that when the deacon is there, he is to serve, but he also interprets the GIRM that ‘other lay ministers’ means only EHMCs. I don’t think that is right. I think, in the absence of an instituted acolyte, other adults, boys, and girls can be altar servers, per the GIRM. Those servers can also be EHMCs if properly trained and needed at that Mass. But it does not make sense to me that when there actually is an altar server that the EHMCs should take over that role.

Wow, long enough. Anyone have any thoughts on what the correct procedure is per the GIRM when there is a) no acolyte b) boy altar server c) no deacon and d) EHMCs? Who does what? References to GIRM or interpretations thereof appreciated.

 

[Bballer32]

I think you meant EMHC’s (extraordinary ministers of holy communion).

According to Canon Law, laity are only allowed to partake in one of the roles in the Mass. In other words, if they are a lector, then they technically cannot be an EMHC (some parishes allow this due to population issues or even participation issues).

And if I remember correctly, the EMHC are NOT supposed to set the altar, ESPECIALLY women EMHC. That is reserved for the deacon and the altar servers, which I’m glad your son is starting to do.

Now, as a seminarian, I can technically altar serve and be an EMHC with a “dispensation” from my pastor for a specific need.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I think you meant EMHC’s (extraordinary ministers of holy communion).

According to Canon Law, laity are only allowed to partake in one of the roles in the Mass. In other words, if they are a lector, then they technically cannot be an EMHC (some parishes allow this due to population issues or even participation issues).

And if I remember correctly, the EMHC are NOT supposed to set the altar, ESPECIALLY women EMHC. That is reserved for the deacon and the altar servers, which I’m glad your son is starting to do.

Now, as a seminarian, I can technically altar serve and be an EMHC with a “dispensation” from my pastor for a specific need.

I don’t believe there is any such canon in the law. If I’m incorrect please cite it.

It makes more sense to allow one person to do as many tasks as needed solemnly, rather than a gaggle of people each doing one task.

 

[pianistclare]

It’s unfortunately a problem in many places where the daily Mass goers think they “own” the liturgy.
It’s ultimately the priest’s call to organize morning mass duties as he wishes.
I would think after all the CAF folks are lamenting the loss of boy altar servers, that your son’s willingness to serve would be greatly appreciated.
Talk to the priest, privately. He knows the rubrics.

 

[Antegin]

I don’t believe there is any such canon in the law. If I’m incorrect please cite it.

It makes more sense to allow one person to do as many tasks as needed solemnly, rather than a gaggle of people each doing one task.

It doesn’t come from canon law but from this document from the USCCB.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/index.cfm

Speaking as someone who had tried to hold multiple roles in the mass, it does not make sense nor does it make for more solemnity when one person is all over the place doing everything. The bishops, on the instruction of GRIM and Vatican II documents, want different people, using the gifts the Spirit gave them. The bishops instruct us that we must avoid having one person in charge.

 

[FrDavid96]

OK, kind of a long-drawn out thing here. My bride and our kids attend daily Mass most days at our local parish. My son is now old enough to serve, and he does serve often. However, there appears to be some confusion as to the roles of all those assisting at Mass, in whatever capacity, as I will try to describe.
Historically it appears that the EHMCs were also essentially functioning as acolytes, or perhaps it is more accurate to say as altar servers. Prior to my son being trained as an altar server, I do not think there were altar-server-aged kids attending daily Mass too often, as school is already in session or close to it (we homeschool).
Anyhoo, the EHMCs seem to be very reluctant to let my son actually serve at the altar. They also do not like to let the deacon, when he is there, prepare the altar either. I don’t think I am using the terms entirely correctly, but I hope you get the idea. They want to set the altar and assist the priest. It has gotten to the point where the other day one of the usual EHMCs was sitting in the first pew, although she was not serving, and she slid down that pew and was whispering to the EHMCs “you go set the table”. On the day this happened, a deacon was present along with my son. One of the EHMCs tried to quiet the first lady. Unfortunately we were right behind them, and I think both my bride and I leaned over the pew to say, no, the deacon is there (thinking may be they forgot the procedure?). One of the EHMCs turned around to my wife and said, “Incorrect! Each church does it differently” and something like “until you interfered” because we had addressed letting my son actually serve with Fr. (the assistant pastor) before.

Fr. takes the position, I think, that when the deacon is there, he is to serve, but he also interprets the GIRM that ‘other lay ministers’ means only EHMCs. I don’t think that is right. I think, in the absence of an instituted acolyte, other adults, boys, and girls can be altar servers, per the GIRM. Those servers can also be EHMCs if properly trained and needed at that Mass. But it does not make sense to me that when there actually is an altar server that the EHMCs should take over that role.

Wow, long enough. Anyone have any thoughts on what the correct procedure is per the GIRM when there is a) no acolyte b) boy altar server c) no deacon and d) EHMCs? Who does what? References to GIRM or interpretations thereof appreciated.

For the most part, this is all up to the individual priest celebrating the Mass.

When a deacon is present, he must be the one to perform the deacon’s functions.

When there is no deacon, the various roles which may be assigned to laypersons can be distributed among them however the celebrating priest decides. It’s his call. He can have all adults if he wants. He can have only youth servers. He can have a mix. It’s his decision to make.

As a general rule, each person is to have a single role. That means that a server should not also be a reader—but it does not mean that the various individual acts must be done by different people. It’s allowed (but not preferred) even to have a single person do multiple roles; so a reader can be a server, if there’s a legitimate reason.

All of the servers (a.k.a. non-instituted acolytes) can do all of the servers’ jobs. For example, there is no need to have 2 people at the offertory, one to hand the priest the water and another to hand him the wine. There’s no reason why the one who holds the book at the opening Collect cannot also assist at the offertory.

There’s no real distinction between adult and youth servers; except perhaps that some servers might be too young to be extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

One thing that’s backwards though. It is not the EMHCs role to also serve as non-instituted acolyte. It’s the other way around: a non-instituted acolyte might be appointed as an EMHC. The problem with the first way of thinking is that it implies that EMHC is somehow a normative role. It’s not. It is strictly extraordinary and to be done only in cases of genuine necessity.

A concern I have is the words “set the table.” That makes me shudder. It is not setting the table. It is preparing the altar for the Holy Sacrifice. That one sentence speaks volumes me that there are deep problems there with how people see their role at Mass.

 

[Phemie]

I think you meant EMHC’s (extraordinary ministers of holy communion).

**According to Canon Law, laity are only allowed to partake in one of the roles in the Mass. In other words, if they are a lector, then they technically cannot be an EMHC (some parishes allow this due to population issues or even participation issues). **

And if I remember correctly, the EMHC are NOT supposed to set the altar, ESPECIALLY women EMHC. That is reserved for the deacon and the altar servers, which I’m glad your son is starting to do.

Now, as a seminarian, I can technically altar serve and be an EMHC with a “dispensation” from my pastor for a specific need.

Likewise, I don’t think there is any such canon.

The GIRM says that
91. (…) All, therefore, whether ordained ministers or lay Christian faithful, in fulfilling their function or their duty, should carry out solely but totally that which pertains to them.[76]

1. After the Priest, the Deacon, in virtue of the sacred Ordination he has received, holds first place among those who minister in the celebration of the Eucharist. For the sacred Order of the Diaconate has been held in high honor in the Church even from the early time of the Apostles.[81] At Mass the Deacon has his own part in proclaiming the Gospel, from time to time in preaching God’s Word, in announcing the intentions of the Universal Prayer, in ministering to the Priest, in preparing the altar and in serving the celebration of the Sacrifice, in distributing the Eucharist to the faithful, especially under the species of wine, and from time to time in giving instructions regarding the people’s gestures and posture.
2. In the absence of an instituted acolyte, there may be deputed lay ministers to serve at the altar and assist the Priest and the Deacon; these carry the cross, the candles, the thurible, the bread, the wine, and the water, or who are even deputed to distribute Holy Communion as extraordinary ministers.[84]
   So if there is a deacon, he does what the deacon does. If there is also an altar server, he does what the acolyte would normally do. The EMHCs don’t enter the picture until it’s time to distribute Communion and they are needed. With a deacon and a priest present just how many people would have to attend a weekday Mass for EMCHs to be needed?

 

[SyroMalankara]

It doesn’t come from canon law but from this document from the USCCB.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/index.cfm

Speaking as someone who had tried to hold multiple roles in the mass, it does not make sense nor does it make for more solemnity when one person is all over the place doing everything. The bishops, on the instruction of GRIM and Vatican II documents, want different people, using the gifts the Spirit gave them. The bishops instruct us that we must avoid having one person in charge.

Sure, it doesn’t make sense to assign one person to hold both the thurible, a candle, the processional cross, and the priest’s Mass book at the same time - however, why can’t a crossbearer serve when he’s done holding the cross? Why can’t a reader also EMHC (something I think should be much more rare than it is today)? In fact, why couldn’t any server EMHC? They are already there - instead of more people doing less.

 

[Phemie]

Sure, it doesn’t make sense to assign one person to hold both the thurible, a candle, the processional cross, and the priest’s Mass book at the same time - however, why can’t a crossbearer serve when he’s done holding the cross? Why can’t a reader also EMHC (something I think should be much more rare than it is today)? In fact, why couldn’t any server EMHC? They are already there - instead of more people doing less.

No one has said that the cross-bearer can’t do anything else. In our parish we might, seldom, have three servers at a given Mass. One carries the Cross and two carry the candles. One of them will hold the Missal or other ritual book for Father. Two will help Fr. receive the gifts at the Offertory. They all do multiple things, they simply do only that which an instituted acolyte would – except act as EMHCs because they are too little.

 

[choose_to_love]

Thank you all for your responses. It is a really odd situation at times.

@Fr.D.: re: “set the table” I know, right? Yikes. But your understanding is that if Fr. wants the EMHCs (another discussion that is unlikely to change, no way 2 EMHCs are actually needed for 8 a.m. Mass) to prepare the altar, technically they could be seen as acting as ‘servers’ when they are doing that, and then as EMHCs when the time comes? It just seems silly to have my son, as the server, just stand there.

Honestly, we wonder why there are no vocations, and then when a young man tries to serve, there is opposition. NB: no vocations from the parish in 20+ years. Also, my son serves the TLM both low and high Mass, and has served the Anglican Use Mass as well, so he is completely capable and reverent.

We were going to try to clarify things with the pastor (who is retiring in two months), but if it is really up to the priest, not sure I want to engage. Still, that USCCB document cited elsewhere seems to say it is preferred that each person only have one role per Mass, and I would think that would be even more so true where there actually are enough people for each role.

@phemie: “the EMHCs don’t enter the picture until its time to distribute communion” Yeah, not so much at this parish at this Mass. Agreed that is what should be happening, but I think due to a lack of servers they have been doing both roles for so long that no one knows what to do when there is an altar server, and Fr. (by which I mean whoever is celebrating daily Mass) is not setting clear guidelines.

@pianistclare: we did speak to Fr. privately. He does not consistently make his expectations clear, which is a problem because apparently at least some of the EMHCs think the server is not allowed to handle the sacred vessels, and sound like they are scandalized almost when my son prepares the altar. They also resist sitting in the pews rather than on the altar. Yes, there seems to be some “owning” of the liturgy going on.

@Bballer: Ha! Yes, I had the acronym wrong, and what’s more, I still read it wrong and had to correct this response. Do you have a canon law cite?

@antegin: thanks for the link, that helps.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thank you all for your responses. It is a really odd situation at times.

@Fr.D.: re: “set the table” I know, right? Yikes. But your understanding is that if Fr. wants the EMHCs (another discussion that is unlikely to change, no way 2 EMHCs are actually needed for 8 a.m. Mass) to prepare the altar, technically they could be seen as acting as ‘servers’ when they are doing that, and then as EMHCs when the time comes? It just seems silly to have my son, as the server, just stand there.

In the end it’s the same, but the priorities are backwards.

The Church does not see EMHCs as potential servers. Technically they are not EMHCs until after the Lamb of God. Once Communion has been distributed, they cease to be EMHCs. Unfortunately, it is perceived as some kind of office or title (St John Paul II even addressed that directly and made clear that it’s not the case).

Even an instituted Acolyte (one officially installed by the bishop) is still an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion. He is still only a potential minister of Communion.

A server (I think I’ll just stick with that word for now, adult or youth) may be called upon to be an EMHC when it comes time to distribute Communion if the priest sees a need.

The problem, in what you describe, is one of priorities. The role of EMHC is seen as some kind of permanent, even necessary, role. That’s what is coming across to me.

Honestly, we wonder why there are no vocations, and then when a young man tries to serve, there is opposition. NB: no vocations from the parish in 20+ years. Also, my son serves the TLM both low and high Mass, and has served the Anglican Use Mass as well, so he is completely capable and reverent.

I hear you. I hear you loud and clear.

We were going to try to clarify things with the pastor (who is retiring in two months), but if it is really up to the priest, not sure I want to engage. Still, that USCCB document cited elsewhere seems to say it is preferred that each person only have one role per Mass, and I would think that would be even more so true where there actually are enough people for each role.
…

Hope and pray that the incoming pastor will put things into proper perspective.

There’s a lot of misconception in the posts on this thread about exactly what the GIRM (General Instruction on the Roman Missal) actually says. It’s not a “USCCB document.” It’s merely found on their webpage. It is in reality the Instruction at the beginning of the Roman Missal that tells everyone how the Mass is celebrated. It is part of the universal Roman Missal (although there are some minor variations for each country). The point here is that it says that each person is to have only one role, generally speaking. The lector is not the reader is not the cantor etc. Still it is not an absolute rule. It is a preference. It can vary by circumstances.

It’s still what I wrote in the earlier post:

What you describe is within the competence of the priest celebrating that particular Mass. Regardless of his reasoning behind the decisions, they’re still his decisions to make. Nothing you mention actually goes against any of the Church’s liturgical laws.

 

[pianistclare]

***Slightly off-topic story:***It’s more about the people there.
Case in point: our Sacristan literally shouted at our pastor last week because he didn’t immediately answer her when she asked if there was a second Mass for the homeschoolers one morning. He didn’t answer because he was offended that she made it sound like he couldn’t prepare for the Mass on his own, or with the aid of the Deacon present either. She thinks if SHE doesn’t do it, it will be wrong. She continued to shout at him until he got in his car and drove away. Later, he said “she’s an old lady, and this is all she thinks she has to offer. I can’t tell her exactly how I feel. She’d be crushed”.
People make demands on their priests, speak uncharitably, and disrespectfully, and the priests try very hard not to fight, ruffle feathers, or discipline them for the sake of harmony in the parish. But honestly, people can be just wrong.
It’s unfortunate. All of us could stand to be a bit more humble.

 

[Antegin]

Sure, it doesn’t make sense to assign one person to hold both the thurible, a candle, the processional cross, and the priest’s Mass book at the same time - however, why can’t a crossbearer serve when he’s done holding the cross? Why can’t a reader also EMHC (something I think should be much more rare than it is today)? In fact, why couldn’t any server EMHC? They are already there - instead of more people doing less.

People having a part in the mass, take personal responsibility for the mass. The mass is a community prayer and the community needs to participate.

If it weren’t for EMHC of both sexes, a lot of people would be standing around for an hour for communion and some people would not get communion at all, particularly in nursing homes and independent living.

 

[Brendan]

People having a part in the mass, take personal responsibility for the mass. The mass is a community prayer and the community needs to participate…

You are correct that the community needs to participate, but that is not what is being discussed here.

There can be no implication that the EMHC is somehow participating more in Mass that someone who is sitting quietly in the pew.

That is simply not the case.

I would suggest that you read Pope Emeritus Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. He has a whole chapter on what it means for a person to fully participate in the Liturgy.

 

[janeway529]

OK, kind of a long-drawn out thing here. My bride and our kids attend daily Mass most days at our local parish. My son is now old enough to serve, and he does serve often. However, there appears to be some confusion as to the roles of all those assisting at Mass, in whatever capacity, as I will try to describe.
Historically it appears that the EHMCs were also essentially functioning as acolytes, or perhaps it is more accurate to say as altar servers. Prior to my son being trained as an altar server, I do not think there were altar-server-aged kids attending daily Mass too often, as school is already in session or close to it (we homeschool).
Anyhoo, the EHMCs seem to be very reluctant to let my son actually serve at the altar. They also do not like to let the deacon, when he is there, prepare the altar either. I don’t think I am using the terms entirely correctly, but I hope you get the idea. They want to set the altar and assist the priest. It has gotten to the point where the other day one of the usual EHMCs was sitting in the first pew, although she was not serving, and she slid down that pew and was whispering to the EHMCs “you go set the table”. On the day this happened, a deacon was present along with my son. One of the EHMCs tried to quiet the first lady. Unfortunately we were right behind them, and I think both my bride and I leaned over the pew to say, no, the deacon is there (thinking may be they forgot the procedure?). One of the EHMCs turned around to my wife and said, “Incorrect! Each church does it differently” and something like “until you interfered” because we had addressed letting my son actually serve with Fr. (the assistant pastor) before.

Fr. takes the position, I think, that when the deacon is there, he is to serve, but he also interprets the GIRM that ‘other lay ministers’ means only EHMCs. I don’t think that is right. I think, in the absence of an instituted acolyte, other adults, boys, and girls can be altar servers, per the GIRM. Those servers can also be EHMCs if properly trained and needed at that Mass. But it does not make sense to me that when there actually is an altar server that the EHMCs should take over that role.

Wow, long enough. Anyone have any thoughts on what the correct procedure is per the GIRM when there is a) no acolyte b) boy altar server c) no deacon and d) EHMCs? Who does what? References to GIRM or interpretations thereof appreciated.

The EMHC and situation you describe sounds like the person has the role of the Sacristan, who for various reasons does all the roles meant for more than one person. I know that sometimes as a sacristan you end up also being the lector, server, and EMHC, especially for daily Mass when there is a lack of volunteers. Unfortunately it seems like this has been happening for so long that said person(s) may be set in their ways and the priest/pastor is unwilling to rock the boat.

 

[paperwight66]

And if I remember correctly, the EMHC are NOT supposed to set the altar, ESPECIALLY women EMHC. That is reserved for the deacon and the altar servers, which I’m glad your son is starting to do.

Can you just explain the ‘ESPECIALLY women EMHC’, please?

Altar servers can be little girls. So little girls are allowed to set the altar, but adult women aren’t?

 

[pianistclare]

The EMHC and situation you describe sounds like the person has the role of the Sacristan, who for various reasons does all the roles meant for more than one person. I know that sometimes as a sacristan you end up also being the lector, server, and EMHC, especially for daily Mass when there is a lack of volunteers. Unfortunately it seems like this has been happening for so long that said person(s) may be set in their ways and the priest/pastor is unwilling to rock the boat.

yes. definitely.

 

[ProVobis]

If it weren’t for EMHC of both sexes, a lot of people would be standing around for an hour for communion …

If communion would take up to a half hour, would that be a major problem for the Church, you think?

 

[pianistclare]

If communion would take up to a half hour, would that be a major problem for the Church, you think?

If it was a daily Mass frequented by people on their way to work, or on a lunch break, yes.
Sundays? Maybe put the entire Sunday school schedule off…but probably less of a problem.

 

[ProVobis]

If it was a daily Mass frequented by people on their way to work, or on a lunch break, yes.

Point taken, but if communion were the only reason for stopping in, wouldn’t a longer communion provide a wider window of opportunity?

Back to the nursing home issue, for myself I’d be more concerned as to confession availability. In fact, I told them this as my dad was dying in the hospital. But that’s me.