Daily Qurbono and Communion

[shlomo3amrooh]

So what’s the consensus on Daily Qurbono and communion in the Syriac-East?

Is it an abuse?

Is it pious?

How should it be done?

What about married priests?

 

[Rafkqa]

While I understand that daily Qorbono may not have always been the tradition of the Syriac East, I do not beleive it is an abuse. Certainly I can not think of anything forbidding it (I may be wrong). It would be hard to imagine many of our Eastern Fathers stricly forbidding it, especially those of the Monastic tradition who worked so hard at prayer and fasting and many of whom partook in daily quorbono (St Charbel for instance). Of course I understand some concerns about it replacing some of our tradtions of safro and ramsho. One of the stand out moments of my life was when I was in Lebanon one winter and I went down to see Father Antonios Chayna on a weekday and I received confession and communion and partook in the Qorbono. It is something which has been in the Maronite Church for a long while now. Of course I think when it is done it should be done according to the liturgy relevant to the particular Church in which it is celebrated.

As for married priests, not sure if I am missing something in the question. I have no problem with married priests (is there anyone from the Syriac East that could legitametly argue against this? It has always existed). I am all for married priests in the Maronite Church being ordained both in the East and the West (although I am not seeing much of it happening in the West). Let me forshadow this by saying very clearly that I have no view about the Latin Church and married priests. My comments only relate to the Syriac and more particularly to the Maronite Church and married priests.

 

[Zekariya]

As for married priests, not sure if I am missing something in the question. I have no problem with married priests (is there anyone from the Syriac East that could legitametly argue against this? It has always existed). I am all for married priests in the Maronite Church being ordained both in the East and the West (although I am not seeing much of it happening in the West). Let me forshadow this by saying very clearly that I have no view about the Latin Church and married priests. My comments only relate to the Syriac and more particularly to the Maronite Church and married priests.

Byzantine priests must abstain from sexual relations the day before celebrating Divine Liturgy. I assume that it is the same for all Eastern Churches.

 

[Rafkqa]

Byzantine priests must abstain from sexual relations the day before celebrating Divine Liturgy. I assume that it is the same for all Eastern Churches.

Oh yes I see, well I am not going to pretend I have an opinion on this, because I simply do not know…

 

[malphono]

If memory serves, the old tradition in the Western Syriac Church was that the Holy Oblation was offered Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday in parish churches, (and, of course, on major feasts falling on other days of the week). That’s pretty much the same routine as with the Roum. Mor Sevarus of Antioch even composed a “Presanctified” (rshom koso) service to allow for communion on aliturgical days.

OTOH, and again IIRC, the custom among monks was a bit different in that Holy Oblation was often offered on other days as well. That would also be similar to the Roum. Of course the Maronite Church itself is monastic in its origins, so it would seem reasonable to suggest that daily Mass is not exactly a latinization, but rather more of an extension of the old monastic practice.

As for the Eastern Syriac Churches, I really don’t know. Perhaps our brother ronyodish can supply more details.

 

[malphono]

As for married priests, not sure if I am missing something in the question. I have no problem with married priests (is there anyone from the Syriac East that could legitametly argue against this? It has always existed). I am all for married priests in the Maronite Church being ordained both in the East and the West (although I am not seeing much of it happening in the West). Let me forshadow this by saying very clearly that I have no view about the Latin Church and married priests. My comments only relate to the Syriac and more particularly to the Maronite Church and married priests.

AFAIK, yes, the discipline was, at least historically, similar. And I daresay that discipline, in and of itself, would be kind of a clue that daily Mass or DL was not the norm. That said, however, I really don’t know what’s done these days.

 

[bilop]

Byzantine priests must abstain from sexual relations the day before celebrating Divine Liturgy. I assume that it is the same for all Eastern Churches.

What’s the theology behind that discipline?

God Bless

 

[Zekariya]

What’s the theology behind that discipline?

God Bless

In the Early Church, East and West, all who wanted to receive Communion were required to fast from sexual relations the night before and fast from food and liquids after midnight. This was a part of fasting before Communion.

Byzantines, traditionally fast from sexual relations for all of Lent (and other fasting times). This comes from St Paul:

1 Corinthians 7:5 Do not deprive one another [of sexual relations] except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

 

[bilop]

In the Early Church, East and West, all who wanted to receive Communion were required to fast from sexual relations the night before and fast from food and liquids after midnight. This was a part of fasting before Communion.

Byzantines, traditionally fast from sexual relations for all of Lent (and other fasting times). This comes from St Paul:

1 Corinthians 7:5 Do not deprive one another [of sexual relations] except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

OK, but that sort of fasting discipline can be easily changed, just like other fasting disciplines have changed over the years.

e.g. the priest could be required to abstain from sex from midnight until Mass, just like with food and drink. That sort of compromise would allow daily Mass, and a normal marital life.

God Bless

 

[Zekariya]

OK, but that sort of fasting discipline can be easily changed, just like other fasting disciplines have changed over the years.

This ancient, apostolic, and universal discipline cannot be “easily changed”.

 

[Zekariya]

OK, but that sort of fasting discipline can be easily changed, just like other fasting disciplines have changed over the years.

e.g. the priest could be required to abstain from sex from midnight until Mass, just like with food and drink. That sort of compromise would allow daily Mass, and a normal marital life.

God Bless

This is a good read on this topic: newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2013/09/married-priests-ritual-purity-and.html

 

[malphono]

OK, but that sort of fasting discipline can be easily changed, just like other fasting disciplines have changed over the years.

e.g. the priest could be required to abstain from sex from midnight until Mass, just like with food and drink. That sort of compromise would allow daily Mass, and a normal marital life.

When one considers the tradition that the DL is not offered on a daily basis, it really doesn’t make all that much of a difference. One also has to keep in mind that married men are generally ordained at a later age than are celibates.

 

[bilop]

When one considers the tradition that the DL is not offered on a daily basis, it really doesn’t make all that much of a difference. One also has to keep in mind that married men are generally ordained at a later age than are celibates.

Right, practically, it doesn’t matter much.

But, if an Eastern or Oriental Church decided it was important to have daily DL, the hierarchy would be well within its rights to relax the discipline.

God Bless

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

Thanks Rafkqa and Malphono.

But even if the Qurobo Alohoye was offered on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday (and if it is an organic development that it is offered everyday). Would the reception of communion by laity be appropriate everyday? or atleast the days listed previously?

Thanks!

 

[malphono]

But even if the Qurobo Alohoye was offered on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday (and if it is an organic development that it is offered everyday). Would the reception of communion by laity be appropriate everyday? or atleast the days listed previously?

I hate to quote myself, but notice the highlighted portion:

Mor Sevarus of Antioch even composed a “Presanctified” (rshom koso) service to allow for communion on aliturgical days.

If the intent wasn’t to allow for communion on days other than Saturday, Sunday, & Wednesday, IOW, on ***aliturgical ***days, there would have been no reason for the rshom koso service. BTW, as it happens, rshom koso fell out of use by the SOC at some point (probably in the late Middle Ages since Bar Ebroyo mentions it in his Houdoyo).

 

[frjohnmorris]

I may be wrong, but my impression is that the Daily office of Vespers and Matins is not usually served in Latin Rite parish Churches. In the Byzantine Rite, Vespers and Matins are considered the daily services and the Divine Liturgy usually reserved for major feast days.

Fr. John W. Morris

 

[MorEphrem]

From my experience, it seems churches run by Latin monastic orders will do vespers with evening liturgy.

And I’m one to defer to malphono in terms of Syriac liturgy, so it seems pretty organic that the Maronite Church as a [formerly] majority-monastic Church would celebrate daily liturgy or at least offer the rshom koso.

Question for malphono: is the rshom koso non-consecratory like the Byzantine pre-sanctified or does the combination of the Body with the wine make Blood?

 

[frjohnmorris]

From my experience, it seems churches run by Latin monastic orders will do vespers with evening liturgy.

And I’m one to defer to malphono in terms of Syriac liturgy, so it seems pretty organic that the Maronite Church as a [formerly] majority-monastic Church would celebrate daily liturgy or at least offer the rshom koso.

Question for malphono: is the rshom koso non-consecratory like the Byzantine pre-sanctified or does the combination of the Body with the wine make Blood?

What is the rshom koso? During the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Pope of Rome, or Presanctified Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Rite, a piece of the Lamb (host) which was consecrated on Sunday and upon which consecrated wine was poured with the spoon, is broken off and placed into the chalice. That consecrates the wine in the chalice. That is why in the Greek and Antiochian traditions the clergy take Communion as usual including the deacon or priest who is going to consume the remaining consecrated gifts after the Divine Liturgy. The Presanctified Liturgy is served on Wednesday and Friday during Great Lent and the first three days of Holy Week as a full Liturgy is only celebrated on Saturday and Sunday during Great Lent.

Fr. John W. Morris

 

[malphono]

From my experience, it seems churches run by Latin monastic orders will do vespers with evening liturgy.

I guess that’s partially true. Parishes under the charge of a Latin order (whether monastic or mendicant) sometimes do Lauds and Vespers, at least, publicly, but that would normally be in places where the monks or friars share the church with the parish. There’s one O.Carm parish I’m familiar with which never did, since there was a full Priory very close by, so the Friars would gather at the Priory chapel for Office rather than in the parish church.

And I’m one to defer to malphono in terms of Syriac liturgy, so it seems pretty organic that the Maronite Church as a [formerly] majority-monastic Church would celebrate daily liturgy or at least offer the rshom koso.

Question for malphono: is the rshom koso non-consecratory like the Byzantine pre-sanctified or does the combination of the Body with the wine make Blood?

The Presanctified (rshom koso) was done on aliturgical days, which included weekdays of Lent. I should note here that, according to authentic tradition, Great Friday is 100% aliturgical, meaning that it was a day when communion was never offered, rshom koso or otherwise. In any case, the last vestige of rshom koso in the Maronite Church is the one used on Great Friday. (The matter of rshom koso and when it should be used is still a matter of dispute within the “commission” but I digress). The SCC revived rshom koso in a similar way, meaning in imitation of Latin practice for Great Friday only, in the 18th Century (IIRC) using, I think, a version of the ancient form of St Basil, which is one of the forms mentioned by Bar Ebroyo. I understand that the Chaldeans are attempting a revival of a version of rshom koso for use at least during Passion Week, but I’ve not been able to get much detail on that. Nor do I know if such is used by the ACoE. Perhaps our brother ronyodish can shed more light on those.

Now, whether rshom koso is consecratory is a matter of perspective. Even though the Maronite usage (based on Peter III) diverges greatly from the older Anaphorae of Rshom Koso noted by Bar Ebroyo, the same principles are present. There are two main schools of thought, and the one I follow agrees with Bar Ebroyo in that the Anaphora of Rshom Koso is not directly consecratory, but it is indirectly so due to the Rite of Fraction. This is more-or-less the same principle accepted by the Roum (Orthodoxe and Catholique both). The second school looks at in a way similar to the Latins, where the Liturgy of the Presanctified on Good Friday (the post-1955 one) is very clearly not consecratory at all. NB: The Latin Good Friday Liturgy of the Presanctified was mangled in the 1955 Holy Week “reforms” and remains so, but although it wasn’t generally considered consecratory, the older form also used a chalice and contained the Fraction.