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Hunter24
Guest
so you think that this would cause a resurgence of christianity?
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benjohnson
Guest
The evidence seems to indicate that it is difficult to derive good ethics from a non-religious culture.
For example there are avowedly atheist cultures that have wound up having amazingly poor ethics - Stalin’s Russia, Mao’s China, and Pol-Pot’s Cambodia.
Those cultures did have ethics - it seems that murdering millions of people were on the list, but in my opinion, their ethics were very poor.
If course, I make this judgement because I come from a culture that has been imbued with what I think are better ethics.
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In short, the Dalai Lama should be careful - it’s is possible to have ethics without religion, but history has shown that those ethics don’t necessarily wind up being good ethics.
For example there are avowedly atheist cultures that have wound up having amazingly poor ethics - Stalin’s Russia, Mao’s China, and Pol-Pot’s Cambodia.
Those cultures did have ethics - it seems that murdering millions of people were on the list, but in my opinion, their ethics were very poor.
If course, I make this judgement because I come from a culture that has been imbued with what I think are better ethics.
…
In short, the Dalai Lama should be careful - it’s is possible to have ethics without religion, but history has shown that those ethics don’t necessarily wind up being good ethics.
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BettyBoop416
Guest
LOL…Please don’t be offended by this picture. It shows our Pope is human. IMO it is humorous but not in a bad way. It’s an informal pic.
I didn’t even recognize him. When I first saw the pic I thought, “Whoa…that creepy guy is up to no good.” Thanks for the explanation.
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SteveVH
Guest
So, something less than 'Love your neighbor as yourself", or is this to be improved upon? The fact that it came from a religious source does not mean it should not also be practiced in every culture. How would loving one another authentically not transcend religion and culture?exactly, but its not global, its judeo-christian. he wants one thats common world wide, transending religion and culture
The truth of the matter is that one, common set of ethics, world wide, that transcends religion and culture is nothing but a utopian pipe dream. I would love for someone to tell me what morals or ethics have grown out of any culture, independent of religion.
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cornbread_r2
Guest
It seems to me that it’s just as likely that morals and ethics precede religion. That is, when a system of morals and ethics has ritual and a supernatural overseer/enforcer appended to them it becomes a religion. Even the Bible states that Adam and Eve learned of good and evil before they established religious practices.…]
I would love for someone to tell me what morals or ethics have grown out of any culture, independent of religion.
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Hunter24
Guest
the wording is christian, but i suspect a worldwide wording would be similar. and your right, it will never happen.So, something less than 'Love your neighbor as yourself", or is this to be improved upon? The fact that it came from a religious source does not mean it should not also be practiced in every culture. How would loving one another authentically not transcend religion and culture?
The truth of the matter is that one, common set of ethics, world wide, that transcends religion and culture is nothing but a utopian pipe dream. I would love for someone to tell me what morals or ethics have grown out of any culture, independent of religion.
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cornbread_r2
Guest
How about those of Confucianism, Cynicism and Humanism?…]
I would love for someone to tell me what morals or ethics have grown out of any culture, independent of religion.
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InJesusItrust
Guest
And not everyone accepts the metaphysical assumptions underlying these systems, so they reject them. Only the transcendent or a dictator can establish a universal code of ethics. Only religion or a secular messiah can.
How about those of Confucianism, Cynicism and Humanism?
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cornbread_r2
Guest
The poster I was responding to asked for “someone to tell me what morals or ethics have grown out of any culture, independent of religion.” It seems those examples qualify.And not everyone accepts the metaphysical assumptions underlying these systems, so they reject them. Only the transcendent or a dictator can establish a universal code of ethics. Only religion or a secular messiah can.
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Taestron
Guest
It would be disingenuous to call Confucius a religious sage, but on the other hand it is not accurate to say his system grew apart from religion either. Even though it is not a Western religion, it shares many attributes with religions. The exact same thing could be said of Cynicism, and there the similarities with religion are even clearer. But if we take any sort of religious overtones, then the basis for cynicism is undermined.
Humanism is a bad example because the humanistic foundations have fallen prey to postmodernism. The best critique, IMO, against humanism is the fact that there is no consensus as to what the plain, universal, objective truths which reason reveals are.
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cornbread_r2
Guest
I suppose, depending on how broadly one defines “religion”, even Amway could qualify as a religion. I define it to include a common set beliefs, practices and ethics as well as a belief in a supernatural entity and an afterlife.It would be disingenuous to call Confucius a religious sage, but on the other hand it is not accurate to say his system grew apart from religion either. Even though it is not a Western religion, it shares many attributes with religions. The exact same thing could be said of Cynicism, and there the similarities with religion are even clearer. But if we take any sort of religious overtones, then the basis for cynicism is undermined.
Again, I wasn’t claiming that those systems necessarily provided universal, objective truths, just that the seemed to answer the poster’s request to “tell me what morals or ethics have grown out of any culture, independent of religion.”Humanism is a bad example because the humanistic foundations have fallen prey to postmodernism. The best critique, IMO, against humanism is the fact that there is no consensus as to what the plain, universal, objective truths which reason reveals are.
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TheAtheist
Guest
I’d agree with you quite wholeheartedly regarding Confucius.It would be disingenuous to call Confucius a religious sage, but on the other hand it is not accurate to say his system grew apart from religion either. Even though it is not a Western religion, it shares many attributes with religions. The exact same thing could be said of Cynicism, and there the similarities with religion are even clearer. But if we take any sort of religious overtones, then the basis for cynicism is undermined.
Its a little unhelpful when people attempt to discuss Axial Age philosophies by trying to project back the rather modern categories of “religious” and “secular” onto the situations that were occurring therein.
It would perhaps be more appropriate to say that Confucius was attempting to bolster the cosmic/metaphysical order which he accepted (Tian/Shangdi/Heaven) through the use of his teachings in the face of a decaying social situation.
Not quite sure if i buy into what your saying about Cynicism however…
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kbwall
Guest
Ethics and morals can’t survive outside religion. Not for long anyway. Culture can’t keep ethics forever, since cultures are constantly changing. There can and are moral/ethical atheists, to be sure, but as a whole for society, it can’t last. Atheism is a relatively new and young idea. A couple hundred years ago it was inconceivable that the world got here without a deity of some kind.
Even now, we have already abandonned almost all forms of sexual morality, and almost every form of sexual deviancy is expected to be tolerated. If you tell someone their actions are wrong, they’ll call you out for being judgemental (of course, they’ll blame everybody else for their problems once they start getting STDs and unplanned pregnancies). Homosexuality has planted its roots into being accepted as normal. And our society now tolerates abortion, the killing of unborn babies, to a ridiculous degree, and that anybody who sees it as wrong should mind their own business.
How long until all morality is abandonned? There are a few countries that have a majority atheist population and they haven’t torn themselves apart. Not yet anyway. Such thinking is short term and naive. Who is to say that atheism won’t lead to something a lot worse in 50-100 years? With nothing to objectively say what is right and what is wrong, there is nothing to stop society from slipping into more and more immorality.
Even now, we have already abandonned almost all forms of sexual morality, and almost every form of sexual deviancy is expected to be tolerated. If you tell someone their actions are wrong, they’ll call you out for being judgemental (of course, they’ll blame everybody else for their problems once they start getting STDs and unplanned pregnancies). Homosexuality has planted its roots into being accepted as normal. And our society now tolerates abortion, the killing of unborn babies, to a ridiculous degree, and that anybody who sees it as wrong should mind their own business.
How long until all morality is abandonned? There are a few countries that have a majority atheist population and they haven’t torn themselves apart. Not yet anyway. Such thinking is short term and naive. Who is to say that atheism won’t lead to something a lot worse in 50-100 years? With nothing to objectively say what is right and what is wrong, there is nothing to stop society from slipping into more and more immorality.
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Hunter24
Guest
Confucius believed that the Chinese people had degenerated from traditional Chinese religion and ethics (much like how many Christians feel today). he wanted to return China to traditional worship of Heaven and its traditional ethics.
one thing this shows is that people dont change, every generation pushes the envelope a little further than the last. thats why when a generation is young they often rebel against society, then when they grow old scold their children for pushing it further. its how society changes over time.
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