Dancing in the maronite mass

[Against_Heresy]

I go to a maronite school which at random masses alows students to dance on the area surounding the main altar. The students all stand on the edge and sing a hymn and dance. Is this lawful in the eastern churches specifically the Maronite church or is considered a liturgical abuse. If it is a ltiurgical abuse can someone direct me to an official Church document stating it to be such.

Personally i dislike liturgical dancing unless it is part of the tradition of the church itself for example the ethiopian Catholic church.

 

[nickybr38]

When are they dancing? Before the Mass? During the Mass? Or after the Mass has ended?

 

[malphono]

Before I make further remarks, may I ask what country this school is in?

 

[Against_Heresy]

When are they dancing? Before the Mass? During the Mass? Or after the Mass has ended?

After the eucharist has been recieved and before the mass is ended.

 

[Against_Heresy]

Before I make further remarks, may I ask what country this school is in?

Australia

 

[malphono]

Australia

Ah, I see. Not too surprising. In any case, yes, it’s clearly a neo-latinized liturgical abuse, and one that I would consider to be more than minor. Good luck reporting it to Mar Aad, though. I’d be curious about the response.

 

[Against_Heresy]

Ah, I see. Not too surprising. In any case, yes, it’s clearly a neo-latinized liturgical abuse, and one that I would consider to be more than minor. Good luck reporting it to Mar Aad, though. I’d be curious about the response.

Well mar ad is no longer bishop and even he was, he had been allowing this to happen for the last ten years. The only way i could at least get a serious response is if i can get an official and authoritative church document condemning this abuse.

Ps i dont know who the ext bishop will be. I hope he will be a good and firm bishop like our first bishop who was mar abdu kalif.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Australia

Didn’t Michael Voris had a report on the Maronites in Australia saying how faithful to tradition they are and how much they were unaffected by “Novus Ordo innovations”?

 

[malphono]

Well mar ad is no longer bishop

Oh, I know, but even though his retirement was accepted, he remains as “administrator” of the diocese until a successor is named.

and even he was, he had been allowing this to happen for the last ten years. The only way i could at least get a serious response is if i can get an official and authoritative church document condemning this abuse.

Yes. That why I said “good luck” …

Ps i dont know who the ext bishop will be. I hope he will be a good and firm bishop like our first bishop who was mar abdu kalif.

I haven’t heard any rumors about his successor either. Who knows? It could end up to be G. Abdallah.

But I suppose it doesn’t much matter. The goings-on in Lebanon (including liturgy) are equally disgraceful and they just keep getting worse. Piano lounge music anyone?

 

[malphono]

Didn’t Michael Voris had a report on the Maronites in Australia saying how faithful to tradition they are and how much they were unaffected by “Novus Ordo innovations”?

Don’t get me going on that. Please! There was a thread about that Voris thing here a while ago. If I was more interested, I do a search.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Don’t get me going on that. Please! There was a thread about that Voris thing here a while ago. If I was more interested, I do a search.

Sorry, I couldn’t resist I mean I knew the Maronites are battling severe Latinizations but when the OP said this was in Australia, that Voris report instantly came into my mind. I guess this is icing on the cake on my opinion about Voris.

 

[malphono]

Sorry, I couldn’t resist I mean I knew the Maronites are battling severe Latinizations but when the OP said this was in Australia, that Voris report instantly came into my mind. I guess this is icing on the cake on my opinion about Voris.

And yet so many people on these boards think he’s practically infallible. Yeah, well …

 

[Aramis]

While I don’t know if it properly extends to the EC liturgies, I do know that there are exemptions to the “no liturgical dance” rule within the Roman Church for both West Africans and Alaskan Native Peoples.

I’ll note that for Alaska Natives, it’s only in the traditional format for native dance, it’s restricted to adaptations of biblical stories, and is allowed for offeratory and post-communion hymns (plus pre-entrance and post-recessional uses). It’s literally the Yupiq equivalent of singing a bible story.

For West Africans, it’s more a specific permission for the traditional “dancing while singing” mode - congregational, not exhibitional.

 

[Denho]

But I suppose it doesn’t much matter. The goings-on in Lebanon (including liturgy) are equally disgraceful and they just keep getting worse. Piano lounge music anyone?

I watch the online recordings of the Sunday liturgies on MTV just to see what they come up with each week. It seems that almost all of the Churches there have become infected. There was an Armenian liturgy a while back that was just plain awful.

There was a very striking one recently where ++Sfeir and the Melkite and Armenian patriarchs were serving a Maronite liturgy in the Melkite Cathedral and they didn’t even make an attempt to use the actual altar behind the iconostasis; they insisted on putting up an ironing board table in front of the iconostasis. I know they are chained to the versus populum nonsense but… it was a liturgy with just bishops and priests present, if they can’t handle ad orientem among themselves…

 

[Against_Heresy]

So can someone help me out and answer my question.

 

[malphono]

So can someone help me out and answer my question.

Look back at post #6. Yes, it’s an abuse. No, there’s no “Maronite Church document” that spells it out. There doesn’t have to be. Dancing (around the versus populum table or whatever it is that they’re doing) at whatever point during Mass is absolutely 100% NOT part of the Syriac liturgical tradition. Doesn’t matter if it’s dabke or raqs baladi or belly dance. What it IS is an aping of a liturgical abuse that is all too common among the Latins in certain places. I find the very idea of this “dancing” business repugnant, but it doesn’t at all surprise me. Why should it? It’s just another nail in the Maronite coffin. Part of the ongoing loss of Maronite identity. Most unfortunately, the Maronites will copy just about anything, licit or otherwise, from the Latins.

 

[twf]

Look back at post #6. Yes, it’s an abuse. No, there’s no “Maronite Church document” that spells it out. There doesn’t have to be. Dancing (around the versus populum table or whatever it is that they’re doing) at whatever point during Mass is absolutely 100% NOT part of the Syriac liturgical tradition. Doesn’t matter if it’s dabke or raqs baladi or belly dance. What it IS is an aping of a liturgical abuse that is all too common among the Latins in certain places. I find the very idea of this “dancing” business repugnant, but it doesn’t at all surprise me. Why should it? It’s just another nail in the Maronite coffin. Part of the ongoing loss of Maronite identity. Most unfortunately, the Maronites will copy just about anything, licit or otherwise, from the Latins.

I agree with you completely…but as a Latin, I’ve personally never come across “liturgical” dancing… I would never have even heard of it if not for the internet - and I do regularly attend mass in various countries (Canada, Dominican Republic, Argentina…). My home archdiocese in Canada is quite “conservative” when it comes to these sorts of things…at several parishes (including the cathedral), the faithful are encouraged to receive Our Lord kneeling at the altar rail…incense, chant, and even some Latin are employed…etc. Is “dancing” really that widespread…where have you come across it?

That being said, as other posters have pointed out, the Church allows certain expressions of reverent, traditional liturgical dancing in the Ethiopic Rite (where it is quite appropriate - among the Orthodox and Catholics) and in certain African adaptations of the Roman Rite… but this is a far cry from the “performance” described here, and is certainly not part of the Western/Latin tradition properly speaking.

 

[malphono]

I agree with you completely…but as a Latin, I’ve personally never come across “liturgical” dancing… I would never have even heard of it if not for the internet - and I do regularly attend mass in various countries (Canada, Dominican Republic, Argentina…). My home archdiocese in Canada is quite “conservative” when it comes to these sorts of things…at several parishes (including the cathedral), the faithful are encouraged to receive Our Lord kneeling at the altar rail…incense, chant, and even some Latin are employed…etc. Is “dancing” really that widespread…where have you come across it?

I’ve no idea how widespread it is, nor have I come across myself, but there are several reasons for that. For one, I’m not Latin and hence not a denizen of Latin churches. For another, when I do attend a Latin church, I am very strictly a Usus Antiquior person, which allows no “dancing” or other such shenanigans. For a third, I would never even consider entering – much less attending Mass in – a Latin church where “youth Masses” or other such touchy-feely things are prevalent. (Of course, it’s more than highly unlikely that such a church would offer the Usus Antiquior anyway, so it’s kind of a moot point.) Now, in the event that I enter a church and am surprised with an “unusual” service, I very simply pick up my cap and walk out, never to return. (This has actually happened to me a few times over the past 40-some years.) And I say that irrespective of whatever country I might be in.

 

[malphono]

I watch the online recordings of the Sunday liturgies on MTV just to see what they come up with each week. It seems that almost all of the Churches there have become infected. There was an Armenian liturgy a while back that was just plain awful.

There was a very striking one recently where ++Sfeir and the Melkite and Armenian patriarchs were serving a Maronite liturgy in the Melkite Cathedral and they didn’t even make an attempt to use the actual altar behind the iconostasis; they insisted on putting up an ironing board table in front of the iconostasis. I know they are chained to the versus populum nonsense but… it was a liturgy with just bishops and priests present, if they can’t handle ad orientem among themselves…

Oh yes, and even worse are the offerings on Noursat. I was in the habit of watching regularly, but have curtailed that habit since all I seem to get out of is being highly upset, sometimes to the point of agitation.

It pains me to no end that Lebanon has become a liturgical black hole. I’ve yet to see a Maronite service that doesn’t fit that bill. Favorable to unfavorable, the Coptic CC seems to be about 50-50, the SCC 30-70, Melkites 50-50, Chaldeans 0-100. The only Armenian CC event I’ve seen was last Holy Week, so I won’t make a comment there. While I’ve not seen any Armenian, Coptic, or SOC services broadcast, the only regular broadcasts that are majority favorable seem to be the Roum Orthodoxe. Could it be that the word “Orthodox” does have a liturgical meaning as well?

Oh, I may actually have seen the same broadcast, but it doesn’t matter. And of course I know all about their being wedded to the versus populum table. I wonder how many ad orientem altars still exist there? The Patriarchal Church in Bkerke was recently violated, and I’m just waiting to hear the same news for Diman. Most Maronite churches in Lebanon seem to have these absurdly long Henry VIII-style banquet tables. How about the Bkerke Bowl? Or the monstrosity of church at Harissa? Or that hideous “new” church in Annaya?

Funny thing … so much talk about restoring lost traditions like the sanctuary veil, but the reality is otherwise. More and more Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization, and it’s getting worse by the day.

 

[CB_Catholic]

So can someone help me out and answer my question.

Sir, this is the Catholic Answers Forums. It takes 14 pages, 3 arguments, and two warnings from the Moderator to get your question answered, and then the thread will be closed because the question was answered. I see you are fairly new here, so I thought I’d clue you in.