Danger in the Two Ways

  • Thread starter Thread starter utunumsint
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
U

utunumsint

Guest
Greetings and happy Advent,

I was recently reading a book by an author who claimed that Pope John Paul II’s encyclicals were overly dualistic in tone although if one looked really hard, one could find areas where he admits a natural source for truth. The encyclicals dealing with social doctrine tended be the most favourable towards naturally attainable truth, while the other more theological and moral encyclicals tended to put the focal point of all truth in revelation as mediated through the Bible, the Church, and Jesus Christ.

I guess my question is, where to draw the dividing line? I mean, we have had some evil Pope, pedophile priests, power hungry religious leaders (Fr. Maciel Macier), etc… Clearly these people cannot represent truth.

Then there are more controversial issues, for example, whether one accepts the church’s position on the war in Iraq, or in Afganistan. Is the church’s judgement on these issues purely one among many, which we can choose to ignore, or to accept? I mean, our leaders, including our bishops, and the pope, are human beings.

Let me try to narrow down what I am attempting to discuss:

1-To a certain extent, there are two ways in life, one that leads to death and perdition, and one that leads to life. I accept this. But can we equate this with the church versus everyone else?
2-If the answer is no to the question I pose in point 1, then what should our attitude towards our spiritual leaders be? Should we display a docile tendency and refuse to hold our spiritual leaders to account? What should our relationship as laity be with regard to the hierarchy? Should we be completely uninvolved in the church’s magisterium? Is there no room for lay oversite?

Don’t get me wrong, I am totally opposed to that sort of democratic lay run church that some people want. I believe that the bishop should be the one in authority over the church. But what are the limits? The same thing goes for the local parish priest. I mean, honestly, some priests have no leadership abilities at all. Some are great administrators, but poor preachers. Some are great at pastoral outreach and evangelization, but will eventually bankrupt a parish if left unchecked. Who am I, as a lay person, to hold them to account? On the other hand, the parish is left with the disastrous bill afterwards. Does the priest hold any personal debt?

Then, also, what about those who seem to be holding clearly heretical beliefs? If you read Vatican II’s proclamations on the role of the bishop, I wonder if anyone can fulfil the role these men are called to incarnate, let alone ones who are clearly in opposition to the church’s teachings…

Anyway, I am going to end my ramblings. The jist of what I am asking is summarized in my two points.

God bless,
Ut
 
I have never understood the “dualism” problem, generally defined, such as Fr. Richard Rohr discusses in his books. He never defines his concepts and offers the results of his thoughts and concepts without giving the reader the basis of the thoughts and concepts themselves. I believe this is because the concepts would not be compatible with revealed Magisterial doctrine, in my opinion.

There is a hierarchy of truth leading up to the ultimate Truth which is God. We as rational beings using concepts and intellectual reasoning elucidate truth using principles in union with the ulitmate Truth by acceptance of His revealed doctrine. Prayer and acceptance of His Will continually puts us in union with Him while acts contrary to His Will separate us from this truth and the grace He gives us.

Concepts contrary to the proper principles of reasoning and truth lead us astray and separate us from His Grace. When we are disobedient to superiors and to this revealed doctrine of the Church, we should realize we have made a wrong choice and to ask for guidance from God for proper direction. This is true for the bishops themselves as members of the Church. The Holy Spirit and His Gifts and Fruits are indicators as well as gifts from God related to our acceptance of the Theological Virtues Faith, Hope, and Charity.

The path to eternal beatitude is different for everyone but is united in its object of desire which is God. This path includes the Bishops of the Church. The path is made efficacious by God and not by us as God knows what is going to happen and is tacitly approving evil to draw the greater good from it. Our path may include directing the Magisterium or it may not. Our path may be the subject of Divine Mercy or the subject of Divine Justice; we must pray for and not turn ourselves from this mercy, which is ultimately God’s Will for us.
 
I have never understood the “dualism” problem, generally defined, such as Fr. Richard Rohr discusses in his books. He never defines his concepts and offers the results of his thoughts and concepts without giving the reader the basis of the thoughts and concepts themselves. I believe this is because the concepts would not be compatible with revealed Magisterial doctrine, in my opinion.
I was reading Charles Curran. After the first chapter, I realized he is very much into relativism that is in contradiction to the church’s teachings. What he calls dualism, I call rejecting relativism. He tries very hard to display John Paul II’s encyclicals as dualistic, but only succeeds in showing that they could be missinterpreted in this way. From this, he jumps to the conclusion that John Paul II is in fact dualistic. Makes no sense to me.
There is a hierarchy of truth leading up to the ultimate Truth which is God. We as rational beings using concepts and intellectual reasoning elucidate truth using principles in union with the ulitmate Truth by acceptance of His revealed doctrine. Prayer and acceptance of His Will continually puts us in union with Him while acts contrary to His Will separate us from this truth and the grace He gives us.
True. This is true for any Christian.
Concepts contrary to the proper principles of reasoning and truth lead us astray and separate us from His Grace. When we are disobedient to superiors and to this revealed doctrine of the Church, we should realize we have made a wrong choice and to ask for guidance from God for proper direction. This is true for the bishops themselves as members of the Church. The Holy Spirit and His Gifts and Fruits are indicators as well as gifts from God related to our acceptance of the Theological Virtues Faith, Hope, and Charity.
I suppose I have never been called to actual obey a bishop, or excercise the virtue of obedience. Were a bishop to do this, it would just be considered bad form in this day and age. But, were a bishop to encourage me to conceil the truth of a crime, for example, of pedophilia in a priest, I do not have the obligation to obey that bishop, do I?
The path to eternal beatitude is different for everyone but is united in its object of desire which is God. This path includes the Bishops of the Church. The path is made efficacious by God and not by us as God knows what is going to happen and is tacitly approving evil to draw the greater good from it. Our path may include directing the Magisterium or it may not. Our path may be the subject of Divine Mercy or the subject of Divine Justice; we must pray for and not turn ourselves from this mercy, which is ultimately God’s Will for us.
I would say tacitly allow evil, rather than approving evil…

Given the fact that bishops and the magisterium itself is not exempt from falling into evil, or turning away from the path ordained by God, what does that mean in terms of our behaviour as lay persons with regard to a fallible leader in our church? (I am not denying infallibility, but simply looking at what is an appropriate attitude of obedience.)

Hope this makes sense.\

God bless,
Ut
 
Dualism, properly defined, is the belief that good and evil are equally strong. If you believed that God and the Devil were equally powerful, you’d be a dualist.

Some people sloppily use this term to mean that people are all yes and no, black and white, etc. But that’s not what it means.
 
Given the fact that bishops and the magisterium itself is not exempt from falling into evil, or turning away from the path ordained by God, what does that mean in terms of our behaviour as lay persons with regard to a fallible leader in our church? (I am not denying infallibility, but simply looking at what is an appropriate attitude of obedience.)

Hope this makes sense.\

God bless,
Ut
I give a quote from the gospel of Matthew concerning this and how Jesus addressed it

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
(Matthew 23:2-3)

I have always understood this to mean we are to follow doctrine as defined by the Church, even though some of it’s members set bad examples. If a member of the clergy is practicing unsound doctrine or setting a bad example, then as members of the Church we have an obligation to see that these actions are corrected. Remember we are all of the One Body and each member has a role to fill.

I do however think that we should be very charitable in how we exercise that obligation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top