Dangerous biblical study

[Riddle_me_this]

No…I did not forget this is pre-Jesus…it is a forerunner of the sacrament of confession.

Look at it again…The offense or sin of Eliphaz…7 After the Lord had said these things to Job , he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

God’s commands…8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. …My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”

Their obedience…9 So Eliphaz the Temanit…e, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them;

God’s action…and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

But this is gettin off topic…I think the OP requested to back off…so let us respect his prayer…so I suggest you start your own thread on this…

No I am good. It was nice hearing everyone’s point of view. “How will they learn without somene to teach them” . Ain’t it the truth. Talking about things builds everyones faith. Gets the old brain a functionin again lol.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

There were no Saints yet remember and no I don’t pray TO the Holy Spirit but I pray (as the bible tells us to) FOR Holy Spirit. Just as Paul told the disciples of the John the Baptizer when they told him they didn’t know anything about the Holy Spirit.

But yeah when he was talking to Moses that’s what he said. I am the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Trebor135]

Jesus did tell the criminal next to him on the torture stake or cross

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was killed on a stake rather than a cross.

No wonder you don’t pray to the Holy Spirit. If you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, you don’t even believe that he is divine.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

The Vatican doesn’t determine Italy’s school curriculum–it’s a separate country, after all.

I don’t think they teach how to pray in school. It would more likely be in the church and the Vatican has a lot to say about that. I could be wrong about the school thing though.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Sure. The word “pray” can be restated as “ask”.

No one in this discussion has said otherwise.

If it can actually prove helpful, why not?

Then why were the Israelites not rebuked or punished for honouring King David and worshipping God at the same time (see 1 Chronicles 29)?

If I am canonized (haha!), then I would have no problem with Christians requesting my prayers. I would rejoice at the prospect of lending still-suffering Christians on earth a hand while in heaven.

Not at all.

Where’s that in the Bible?

I fail to see why one is permitted and the other forbidden.

How about Revelation 19:9,10
9And he tells me: “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.” 10At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.”
This was an angel that was speakng here.

Besides the bible commands us to honour our Mother and Father but it doesn’t say anything about worshipping them.

 

[Trebor135]

I don’t think they teach how to pray in school. It would more likely be in the church and the Vatican has a lot to say about that. I could be wrong about the school thing though.

I expect that Italy has been falling prey to the secularization trend just as the rest of Europe. For people there not to know much about their faith should be of little surprise.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

catholics are a family, we ask each each other to pray for each other, including the Saints.

Well I was under the impression that people were praying to the Saints, not asking the Saints to pray for them. Sorry for this misinterpration. Still it’s pretty shaky ground. I really don’t see why it is necessary but I do see why God wouldn’t like it and how the glory deserving to God could easily start going to the Saints.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was killed on a stake rather than a cross.

No wonder you don’t pray to the Holy Spirit. If you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, you don’t even believe that he is divine.

I am comparing the two religions my friend. But you are wrong about Jehovah’s Witnesses not believing that the Holy Spirit or Jesus for that matter are divine. That is just silly. It says in Genesis that Jesus and the Holy Spirit helped in the creation of all other things and the only Jesus was the only begotten son of God. How could they not be divine?

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Well, Canada Post is an institution, while saints are real people who deserve some respect. Catholics/Orthodox request their intercession because those who have gone before us in faith no longer commit sin and, as James 5:16b states, “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects”.

But the same could be said about Jesus. Although, if you are saying that if one of the Saints could relate to your individual circumstance better than another then maybe they could put a good word in for you that actually kind of makes sense. Either that or I am getting really tired lol. But don’t you agree that you would have to be very careful in the way that you did it? I mean I would never pray to a friend for them to pray for me…although some did say that prayer is another word for asking. But I think it is different don’t you?

As long as undue importance is not being directed to the Saints that would be the main concern both for us and for the Saints I would imagine.

Hey by the way…and I don’t know if I can stay up for the answer to this but if not I will read it tomorrow, is Moses a Saint? If not then why not? He wrote almost as many bible books as Paul and definitely more than anyone else. Just curious.

 

[Trebor135]

How about Revelation 19:9,10
9And he tells me: “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.” 10At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.”
This was an angel that was speakng here.

I suspected that this passage might come up.

It seems plausible that St. John believed himself to be seeing a theophany–a manifestation of God through an angel. The disciple was rebuked for worshipping what was not divine, rather than for showing it honour of any kind. Cf. this passage from Genesis 19:

[1] The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth,
[2] and said, “My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the street.”
[3] But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

If these beings were angels and not theophanies, did Lot commit a sin here?

 

[Trebor135]

I am comparing the two religions my friend.

All right.

But you are wrong about Jehovah’s Witnesses not believing that the Holy Spirit or Jesus for that matter are divine.

Why do they then deny the trinity?

That is just silly.

Amen!

It says in Genesis that Jesus and the Holy Spirit helped in the creation of all other things and the only Jesus was the only begotten son of God. How could they not be divine?

Well, with this kind of scriptural data, why are you still considering the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a plausible option for the true faith at all?

 

[Trebor135]

Anyway I don’t even agree with the whole idea of going through Saints because I know for a fact that a lot of people don’t do that. They pray directly to the saints. The have pictures and little dolls or statues of the Saints that they pray to. All of this is wrong.

This issue seems to be coming up a lot on CAF lately. Once again I’ll link to this list of Scripture passages demonstrating the unbiblical character of the eighth-century error of iconoclasm.

 

[Trebor135]

But the same could be said about Jesus.

No, because Jesus was always sinless, while the saints have been made sinless. Jesus has literally shared in the divine essence from eternity, while the saints have morally been made partakers of the divine nature since their deaths. We don’t pray to Jesus asking for his intercession, since he’s divine; but we ask the saints for their prayers, since they’re human.

Although, if you are saying that if one of the Saints could relate to your individual circumstance better than another then maybe they could put a good word in for you that actually kind of makes sense.

Exactly

Either that or I am getting really tired lol.

No, you’ve got it.

But don’t you agree that you would have to be very careful in the way that you did it?

One is by no means obliged to turn to the saints for their intercession if it makes one feel uncomfortable.

I mean I would never pray to a friend for them to pray for me…although some did say that prayer is another word for asking.

Indeed.

But I think it is different don’t you?

No.

As long as undue importance is not being directed to the Saints that would be the main concern both for us and for the Saints I would imagine.

Certainly.

Hey by the way…and I don’t know if I can stay up for the answer to this but if not I will read it tomorrow, is Moses a Saint? If not then why not? He wrote almost as many bible books as Paul and definitely more than anyone else. Just curious.

I’ve heard St. John the Baptist invoked, but not the prophet Moses. Although Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac are surely in heaven, it might seem strange to request their intercession given that we live in the New Covenant. You (implicitly) raise a good point though.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Yes I totally agree but Jesus did tell the criminal next to him on the torture stake or cross that he would be with him in paradise.
By our perception of things now though you are absolutely right that we can have a peace beyond what is normal even when being persecuted. In fact that bible tells us that we should be happy that we are being persecuted for the name of God.
I often pray that when confronted about my faith I will have the ability as Jesus and his disciples did to stand up for what I believe in without getting angry or losing that peace. I even see people losing it when I talk with them on different sites and I know that they don’t have the right heart condition.
I have to say that I do notice that you are very pleasant and calm and still able to express your thoughts and opinions. Very commendable.

Ah, well, yes it can be a long journey. It too me 11 years of intensive work to get to this point. Maybe the only “take-home” thing I can think of is trust the Holy Spirit. Fully. Trust that these angry moments are to condition you to understand anger so that the spirit may use that knowledge to retrain you. Take periods of silence, not thinking about anything at all – even about not thinking – if you can get that quiet. Decide if you believe that a) the Holy Spirit has things under control without me doubting, and b) is God’s will being done on earth? If the answer to both is yes, then you should be able to recognize that no matter what happens, it happened, might as well have been the Holy Spirit because you can’t change it, and go from there. To say, “this is a horrible mess” is to judge the Holy Spirit. Also rejoice that you have enemies … many reasons to … but I don’t want to hog this thread off-topic any more so I’ll leave it at that.

Oh, and one important thing. I wouldn’t have even known which way to start, except I heard of something called “spiritual direction” and it turned out they offered it in our diocese, so I got a spiritual director who was fabulous. Some are good, but this guy was over the top – no only theology but psychology he was knowledgeable and connected to others in both fields.

Alan

 

[PeterJohn]

But the same could be said about Jesus. Although, if you are saying that if one of the Saints could relate to your individual circumstance better than another then maybe they could put a good word in for you that actually kind of makes sense. Either that or I am getting really tired lol. But don’t you agree that you would have to be very careful in the way that you did it? I mean I would never pray to a friend for them to pray for me…although some did say that prayer is another word for asking. But I think it is different don’t you?

As long as undue importance is not being directed to the Saints that would be the main concern both for us and for the Saints I would imagine.

Hey by the way…and I don’t know if I can stay up for the answer to this but if not I will read it tomorrow, is Moses a Saint? If not then why not? He wrote almost as many bible books as Paul and definitely more than anyone else. Just curious.

Don’t you want to be a saint?!!

 

[Maryann_C]

Well I was under the impression that people were praying to the Saints, not asking the Saints to pray for them. Sorry for this misinterpration. Still it’s pretty shaky ground. I really don’t see why it is necessary but I do see why God wouldn’t like it and how the glory deserving to God could easily start going to the Saints.

Morning all! By jove I think he’s got it!
Riddle you never did answer me if you would pray for my healing from cancer if i asked you to.

You also never answered WHY you do not trust all Bible translations on the Christian book store shelves today.

Finally having read some of your later posts I am starting to wonder if you understand the concept that God is OUTSIDE of earthly time so what he said to Job in the OT is still applicable to us today because God IS so he speaks NOW .

I also wonder if you believe in the Trinity ,you have talked about praying FOR the Holy Spirit as if trying to say that you would never pray TOO the Holy Spirit. Just trying to understand your meaning better.

Got to go to work now…see ya’ll later!

 

[Heuchler]

Heuchler sorry I didn’t mean to skip your question but lost track of all the people posting. Protestants HAVE to study the bible so that we can know God. We don’t have any other source to go to besides subjective natural revelation. Therefore it makes complete since for a Protestant of any denomination to Study the bible because it is our only special revelation. Of course we do take the risk of twisting scripture but that is the risk that we MUST take because there is no other recourse. We must study. We must work and do the best we can. However for Catholics you truly believe the Church is Infallible. The Church determines and defines what “Tradition” is (since no one else can really pin it down). The Church decides what scripture means. The Church decides absolutely everything. So then why read the Bible and run the risk of falling on the wrong side of history and disagreeing with the Church? There is no reward here. It would be better to simply stick with the catechism in my humble opinion. That’s what I was initially trying to understand before we all got caught up in this quasi debate or whatever lol

Good answer. The only reason a Catholic should read the Bible is for about the same reason. If you want to reach God and try to grow closer, it’s a good thing to read the Bible as it is the word of God. That’s the simplest reply that you can get on this topic. If it’s a good thing (even if it’s only optional) it will certainly be beneficial to do it.

Besides the Catechism is not a substitute for the word of God. It may be truth, but it’s not the Bible. That would be like arguing for reading spark notes instead of The Once and Future King. Yeah, you could pass a test on the book, but you are never really connected to the story.

So, good luck, sorry if I misinterpreted some of your responses as insults, and God bless

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Someone said something about perspective can not be invented hundreds or thousands of years later… Could you be so kind as to trace for me the bodily assumption of Mary to the first 400 years of Church History? Or maybe Papal infallibility? Its just amazing to me that Catholics engage in argumentation that is so easily fired back at them.

The ones that are arguing are either missing the point, or that’s just the only way they know how to communicate, or both.

Asking for “evidence” of the claims of the Church really isn’t fair because it is based on faith which is, by definition, knowing things we cannot see. If we could measure these things scientifically it would be by faith. We cannot scientifically prove God, or that Jesus can forgive sins, but we accept them on faith. Don’t pick and choose which Catholic beliefs you require proof of.

Heuchler sorry I didn’t mean to skip your question but lost track of all the people posting. Protestants HAVE to study the bible so that we can know God. We don’t have any other source to go to besides subjective natural revelation. Therefore it makes complete since for a Protestant of any denomination to Study the bible because it is our only special revelation. Of course we do take the risk of twisting scripture but that is the risk that we MUST take because there is no other recourse. We must study. We must work and do the best we can. However for Catholics you truly believe the Church is Infallible. The Church determines and defines what “Tradition” is (since no one else can really pin it down). The Church decides what scripture means. The Church decides absolutely everything. So then why read the Bible and run the risk of falling on the wrong side of history and disagreeing with the Church? There is no reward here. It would be better to simply stick with the catechism in my humble opinion. That’s what I was initially trying to understand before we all got caught up in this quasi debate or whatever lol

The reason you don’t want to miss out on scripture, is that it is not the surface level that gives you the intimacy with Jesus. It is the deeper levels, the allegorical, the contemplative… these levels are where real transformation comes in. The literal meaning is good, but if one fights over it, one has not yet absorbed the deeper meanings.

It’s like passing a test about a great teacher, compared to just walking with the teacher. Totally different experience, and we need people to do both in the Body of Christ.

Alan

 

[Shannon9791]

Now to shannon. Thank you! That was the substantive answer to my question that I have been begging for the last two days. You addressed the heart of my question in a polite and genuine manner. Appreciate it.

If you could please clarify for me…

You said that even if you DID study and found sola fide to be true or the deuterocanonical books to be apocrypha you would still submit to the Church’s authority.

This to me is absolutely astounding. So in the case of the deuterocanonical books no matter how many errors are in them no matter how many historical archeological or logical arguments are presented you would still swallow your intuition and bend the knee to 70 people in Trent? I am curious. On your view is their ANY evidence at all that would be able to change your mind? Do you believe that kind of thinking is healthy for a person to submit to something that deep down he doesn’t believe but HAS to in the name of Mother Church?
. How can you just simply say “welp, other people have already decided for me”? This has nothing to do with the post but what personally led you to believe this particular institution was worthy of such fanatical devotion that can over ride reason and evidence?

You have already given me a very good answer and I don’t think I will get a better one. I guess now I’m jus curious as to how you came to think this way. Your “personal testimony” as we Protestants call it

And no Rob. The catholic Church did not make scripture and the Catholic Church did not make scripture authoritative… God did. Scriptures are authoritative because they are God breathed. Not because any Church said so.

Thanks again everyone this is my first post and it has been a nice experience over all.

Why did I say I submit to the authority of the Church?

I don’t bend my knee to the men in Trent, nor will I ever. I bend my knee to the One who gave them the authority to lead His Church. Again, that’s where you miss the point, sadly.

Here’s how I do things when I study the Bible. I read, pray, and see if how I see things line up with what the Church teaching. Why? Because the Catholic Church offers the most logical way of viewing things in light of Biblical interpretation. Your beef seems to be more with the inclusion of the DC’s, and they were included b/c they were part of the Septuagint, which was a JEWISH canon. Jerome didn’t think they were inspired, you got that much right, but again, he put them in his vulgate BECAUSE HE SUBMITTED TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH!!! So consider that for just a second, if someone as intelligent as Jerome obviously was can openly disagree with the Church, but yet still submit to Her authority, what is stopping someone like you?

My biggest beef with non-Catholics is their hard headed-ness, and you seem to enjoy that symptom just as much as anyone. So I am now going to ask you a few questions, and I’d appreciate it if you answered each, plus the very first one I asked at the beginning of my post (that one’s the most important):

How many years of Bible Study have you committed yourself to?

Is your interpretation 150% right?

Are you infallible?

If you are not infallible, can you concede that the Catholic Church, in its 1600 years of Scripture interpretation (the canon was officially codified around 400 A.D. give or take a few years), could be right?

How can someone who is not infallible (me) know that your interpretation is better than someone else’s, like for instance, Joel Osteen?

And finally, how did you come to “know” all that you do about the Catholic Church?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Has anybody noticed that Jesus didn’t submit very well to the authority of His church? Sure, He got baptized, but He and his friends were always getting on the wrong side of church authorities and for valid reasons. He and His followers didn’t observe the Sabbath, they didn’t wash their cups, and blatantly so, without shame, because Jesus yelled at the people who were correcting them!!! Plus, He told parable after parable about how what group a person is a member of has nothing to do with how much like Christ that person is. He told about how the wise and learned don’t know what the Lord reveals to the childlike and yet we insist that the person with the highest credentials must automatically know it all.

Jesus told His followers NOT to stop people working in His name but who weren’t a member of His group. They were going to stop Him! They were going to put an end to the heresy! But He didn’t stop them! And yet, lucky as we are to be Catholic, we cannot sit idly by without bashing Protestants. And Protestants, before you snicker, don’t even get me started on some of your attitudes. When I grew up I was best friends with a Lutheran and I got plenty of garbage from his mother, thank you.

No doubt, if Jesus were here posting with us we would call him a heretic, if not a troll.

Alan