Dangerous Minds, not just hypocrites

[LethalMouse]

In the movie Dangerous Minds, at one point a student goes to his principal and is sent away for not knocking. As a result of being sent away the student is subsequently killed having not found the help he seeks…

In trying to bring new or lapse into the Church, we often hear the negativity of people toward “hypocrites in church” but that is the bad people pretending to be good. What about the GOOD people who send away the student?

If my point gets through, what is worse? Not knocking on the door? Or sending the student to be killed?

The principal did not know the student was going to be killed, the principal was not a “bad” man nor a hypocrite. But look what happened. So when Catholics (really any denom) are dealing with people if we over value the door knock we are sending people away, in this case a spiritual death.

This is of particular interest for me because I found humans my greatest obstacle in coming to the church and God in general. How many are like me in the world?

I ask to the people who are easily offended, the people who would walk fast away from a tattooed smoking person who uses a 4 letter word or tells a dirty joke…how many people could be being sent to a spiritual death as they run from God because they see you stand in their way?

I can’t answer “what to do about it” because I am not on the other side. So I wonder if there is someone who can bridge this gap and is like the principal but could suggest and idea that would help not have these people sent away?*

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… I can’t answer “what to do about it” because I am not on the other side. … *

Very interesting question. I’ve been on the receiving end of this many a time. I’m made of stern stuff.

But more to the point, we are all on both sides, including you.

 

[LPS]

It is an interesting question, and one that I have pondered because I’ve witnessed Christians treating people poorly. No question that happens, and it drives some people away and that should hurt the heart of every one of us.

But here’s the thing - we all make our own choices. I’m not trying to be harsh to you, but only want to ask you to take an honest look at what you’re saying: humans are your biggest obstacle in coming to the church and to God.

Humans are, by definition, imperfect. ALL of us are; all of us make mistakes; all of us are at a different level of maturity and at a different level of Wisdom. Do you think that if you decide to come to church and draw closer to God, you will be spiritually mature? Do you think you won’t make some mistakes that may look bad to others or hurt others?

We all make mistakes and while we are each responsible for our actions and should try to make amends for them, we also are each responsible for how we respond to the (sometimes poor) actions of others.

Who is harmed if I don’t go to church because of someone else? I am the one harmed. Is that really someone else’s’ fault? Don’t I learn to forgive and treat others with charity, by first being hurt by them?

I think at some point we have to stop looking at everyone else, and look only at God. He’s got a lot of strange & flawed followers, that’s for sure. But at the end of the day, what’s that got to do with “me,” and my relationship with Him?

Just food for thought, friend - please take no offense.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I was a vulnerable individual, we had the bishop launch a programme for the vulnerable to study scriptures, there was mob rule, there were about eight different factions, none of them supporting my position. It got into national media.

So much for things bishops launch, so it would seem.

Today, here I am, believing in Jesus’ care for me, and going to some churches sometimes.

If you’ve got someone in mind, ask God to strengthen them! One day He will ask, how many people did you ask Him to strengthen?

 

[LethalMouse]

It is an interesting question, and one that I have pondered because I’ve witnessed Christians treating people poorly. No question that happens, and it drives some people away and that should hurt the heart of every one of us.

But here’s the thing - we all make our own choices. I’m not trying to be harsh to you, but only want to ask you to take an honest look at what you’re saying: humans are your biggest obstacle in coming to the church and to God.

Humans are, by definition, imperfect. ALL of us are; all of us make mistakes; all of us are at a different level of maturity and at a different level of Wisdom. Do you think that if you decide to come to church and draw closer to God, you will be spiritually mature? Do you think you won’t make some mistakes that may look bad to others or hurt others?

We all make mistakes and while we are each responsible for our actions and should try to make amends for them, we also are each responsible for how we respond to the (sometimes poor) actions of others.

Who is harmed if I don’t go to church because of someone else? I am the one harmed. Is that really someone else’s’ fault? Don’t I learn to forgive and treat others with charity, by first being hurt by them?

I think at some point we have to stop looking at everyone else, and look only at God. He’s got a lot of strange & flawed followers, that’s for sure. But at the end of the day, what’s that got to do with “me,” and my relationship with Him?

Just food for thought, friend - please take no offense.

I don’t persay have this problem anymore, this is food for thought for others. I decided go to Mass and all that even if all the people hate me Besides, I do like annoying people

As to the highlighted sections:

1. This question supposes your viewpoint. A person who is not here thinks “What is this? is this what they say it is?” and before they decide yes, people have convinced them no. So they are not purposefully hurting themselves in the way that it seems to you.
2. I can not take offense, I am trying to reach those who get offended lol

As to my original post I might clear up an angle. The Principal example was with more “authority” and might only carry the image of the more mean tempered versions. But also, is the people who are offended by non-sinful lack of decorum. In a way that someone cannot speak to them with ease and gets frustrated, then creates the idea that “these people are weird and think I am evil” upon those who are not going to Church.

Again, it is the religious person’s reaction to NON SIN behavior, but they are offended and impossible to talk to.

I have seen it on this forum, much delicate sensibilities. I have decided not to care, but if I were anything but committed and encountered that while casually looking into the faith, I would be like “Pffft weirdos I am out”. My question is in the sense of reaching the casual onlooker.

Is it worse that the person offends us non-sinfully?
Or is it worse that our offense makes them stop considering the faith?
(Do not apply to me, I am here. Apply to the atheist or someone who never heard of Catholicism. How do you bring them the gospel if you are offended by them?)

 

[LethalMouse]

I was a vulnerable individual, we had the bishop launch a programme for the vulnerable to study scriptures, there was mob rule, there were about eight different factions, none of them supporting my position. It got into national media.

So much for things bishops launch, so it would seem.

Today, here I am, believing in Jesus’ care for me, and going to some churches sometimes.

If you’ve got someone in mind, ask God to strengthen them! One day He will ask, how many people did you ask Him to strengthen?

Sorry about the bad experience, glad you made a comeback

I do actually pray on a few people…

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… Besides, I do like annoying people …

You could broaden your skills by alternating it with not annoying them.

We should let people speak for themselves, as to their reaction to us, but at the same time put ourselves in their shoes.

We can’t police all the grumpy sorts that are around here but if we have the energy and inclination we may occasionally call out the more “lethal” among them.

Do tell us more about your history with the churches.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Sorry about the bad experience, glad you made a comeback

I do actually pray on a few people…

Everyone’s going to have a rough life. We should help a few people along, even if it’s just by praying quietly.

Maybe someone we don’t even know, will pray for us when things get rougher for you and me.

 

[LethalMouse]

Do tell us more about your history with the churches.

Not sure exactly what you are looking for?

But I will say you don’t meet atheists or lapse people in the church, you can only be a part of bringing them home out in the world or in some cases on the internet. I think a internet convo might shine some light on the subject

GIRL: Idk sometimes it is hard to find a guy, most of the guys I see I just think eww.

ME: Are you sure you don’t need counseling for being on the other team?

SomeOtherCatholicGuy: Over the line

ME: Huh?

GIRL: Who me?

SOCG: No, LM that is too far

GIRL: Umm No it is fine

SOCG: No it isn’t he shouldn’t say that

GIRL: We are friends, it was a joke he knows I am not.

SOCG: No it doesn’t matter if you are friends he shouldn’t say that

GIRL: Chill out dude, if I am not offended you shouldn’t be

SOCG: ugh w/e I think it is inapporpriate.

The SOCG and the offense…OMG if I didn’t make my decision to be here in spite of people I would not want to be here. This is one instance, but soooo many like it. The guy was earnestly offended. It is ridiculous, and the idea of this being the kind of people one has to talk to in church circles, makes a “normal” person think church people are nuts. It is why even as I am a practicing Catholic (Mass, lent, prayers etc) I still refer to myself and “religious people” as two different things. I won’t be lumped in with them.

**

 

[LethalMouse]

You could broaden your skills by alternating it with not annoying them.

We should let people speak for themselves, as to their reaction to us, but at the same time put ourselves in their shoes.

We can’t police all the grumpy sorts that are around here but if we have the energy and inclination we may occasionally call out the more “lethal” among them.

Do tell us more about your history with the churches.

You do understand it isn’t a goal to annoy people. It is a if they are so stuck up that everything annoys them I would be glad to contribute. I do on occasion temper what I say slightly for temporary purposes, and I would prefer we all be Super Friends! but real life and all that…wonder twin powers activate!

 

[LPS]

My question is in the sense of reaching the casual onlooker.

Is it worse that the person offends us non-sinfully?
Or is it worse that our offense makes them stop considering the faith?
(Do not apply to me, I am here. Apply to the atheist or someone who never heard of Catholicism. How do you bring them the gospel if you are offended by them?)

I don’t know if one is better or worse. I often consider how different all of the different parts of the body of Christ are. Some people responded to God’s call because the fear of hell moved them to repent; others would never come to God out of fear, but are drawn by tenderness & love.

Maybe the people who offend me intrigue another person? It’s a good thing God doesn’t only give us one chance - sometimes it takes hearing His call multiple times before we respond.

And in the end, it’s up to the Holy Spirit to convict us, and up to each individual how they will respond.

 

[LethalMouse]

I don’t know if one is better or worse. I often consider how different all of the different parts of the body of Christ are. Some people responded to God’s call because the fear of hell moved them to repent; others would never come to God out of fear, but are drawn by tenderness & love.

Maybe the people who offend me intrigue another person? It’s a good thing God doesn’t only give us one chance - sometimes it takes hearing His call multiple times before we respond.

And in the end, it’s up to the Holy Spirit to convict us, and up to each individual how they will respond.

I like the fear vs love comparison, for me it was the latter.

The being offended answer is interesting and I wonder if that is the overarching sentiment? “If we are offended by someone they’ll get another chance to come to the church later anyway” hmm that would make some sense to how people reconcile their ways… I don’t entirely agree, but I get why that’s comforting

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

You do understand it isn’t a goal to annoy people. It is a if they are so stuck up that everything annoys them I would be glad to contribute. I do on occasion temper what I say slightly for temporary purposes, and I would prefer we all be Super Friends! but real life and all that…wonder twin powers activate!

Simmer down, please! Anyone that appears “stuck up” (in your opinion) should be ignored and real real life is a wider concept than you apparently think. Also I often don’t understand your prose.

Your original question was a good question, It’s often best to spend time observing as the situation becomes clearer as it goes. Pray that someone else may step in either instead, or as well, and support the person. At the end of the day we are not obliged.

If you show off about how much you annoy others it’s not germane to your own question.

The person you got at earlier for example definitely wasn’t “stuck up”.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Not sure exactly what you are looking for?

But I will say you don’t meet atheists or lapse people in the church, you can only be a part of bringing them home out in the world or in some cases on the internet. …

The SOCG and the offense…OMG if I didn’t make my decision to be here in spite of people I would not want to be here. This is one instance, but soooo many like it. The guy was earnestly offended. It is ridiculous, and the idea of this being the kind of people one has to talk to in church circles, makes a “normal” person think church people are nuts. It is why even as I am a practicing Catholic (Mass, lent, prayers etc) I still refer to myself and “religious people” as two different things. I won’t be lumped in with them.

**

I don’t follow the dialogue you cited. Yes I appreciate there can be exasperating people around churches as I have known over 61 years, but it is character forming. Try and think of God as having a sense of humour. As for worrying about others, I can only repeat we can pray. I still think of those two ladies I knew, who were disinvited. It was incompetence of the worst kind. I felt frozen to the spot, unable to speak up for them. I was younger then.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… But I will say you don’t meet atheists or lapse people in the church, you can only be a part of bringing them home out in the world or in some cases on the internet. …

Yes and the other thing is, we are meant to be in the church to look after the other people in the church at least as much as bring people in.

Hence my motto, “Us are the new Them”.

 

[LethalMouse]

Simmer down, please! Anyone that appears “stuck up” (in your opinion) should be ignored and real real life is a wider concept than you apparently think. Also I often don’t understand your prose.

Your original question was a good question, It’s often best to spend time observing as the situation becomes clearer as it goes. Pray that someone else may step in either instead, or as well, and support the person. At the end of the day we are not obliged.

If you show off about how much you annoy others it’s not germane to your own question.

The person you got at earlier for example definitely wasn’t “stuck up”.

Okay, the fact that you think anything is “simmered up” to begin with is a perfect example of how anyone who isn’t a “religious” person would run.

And the agreeing/not seeing the problem with the example guy is just putting the person in SOCG’s camp. I am talking of how to bridge the gap, if you can only think within his bubble, you won’t be a gap bridger.

(please apply sense to the example, obviously I can not recall word for word/letter or letter quotes nor every single line. it was a simplified but accurate excerpt for point illustrating)

*I don’t know that you are able to comprehend the context of “annoy” people, nor can those whom I inquire about often “get” goofy sarcasm or tongue in cheek comments. The entire point is that when one hits a brick wall with people who are “above” them in mentality, you can either be discouraged or be you…you can leave the church or you can let your inability to conform annoy the other people so that you may proceed to God unhindered by the uptight. *

 

[LethalMouse]

I don’t follow the dialogue you cited. Yes I appreciate there can be exasperating people around churches as I have known over 61 years, but it is character forming. Try and think of God as having a sense of humour. As for worrying about others, I can only repeat we can pray. I still think of those two ladies I knew, who were disinvited. It was incompetence of the worst kind. I felt frozen to the spot, unable to speak up for them. I was younger then.

That is what I am saying more people need to do

 

[LethalMouse]

Yes and the other thing is, we are meant to be in the church to look after the other people in the church at least as much as bring people in.

Hence my motto, “Us are the new Them”.

When I started sort of going back to Church, I was perhaps “Us”? but I fell away again for a time in part because of the people. I actually am lucky too, I started to going to a mass that has about 5 people once a month (military) so I wasn’t with anyone that was too different from me or surrounded by much anyone lol. I then met a wonderful girl, probably one of the most successful Catholics I have ever met (in terms of practicing the faith) who simultaneously was not prone to offense or other “religious” people behavior. And she literally practiced every aspect of the faith and was on the more traditional side. But I find such a person a rarity, and even she was aware of how shall we say annoying religious people can be. Though admittedly she was better at sliding into their circles lol.

 

[LPS]

I like the fear vs love comparison, for me it was the latter.

The being offended answer is interesting and I wonder if that is the overarching sentiment? “If we are offended by someone they’ll get another chance to come to the church later anyway” hmm that would make some sense to how people reconcile their ways… I don’t entirely agree, but I get why that’s comforting

I used to be a moderator on a Christian board and yes, there really are people who are intentionally offensive and will defend that tactic vehemently.

But honestly, I don’t think most people are offensive intentionally. I think sometimes it’s a personality thing; other times they are at a spiritual maturity level where they truly believe they are “taking a stand for the Lord.”

Consider this - flip your proposal around. If you think a person can drive others away from God and church and are therefore responsible for that person’s soul being lost … wouldn’t it also stand to reason that a person can “save” another person’s soul?

Certainly we can help one another, “lead” others to Christ to a degree; but we don’t save others and we also don’t have the power to condemn them.

I’m not saying we won’t be held accountable for our words & actions; I think we will be. But it bothers me sometimes when I hear people blame others for their own choices.

Again, I don’t mean you specifically and I’m very happy you decided to seek Him I just know other individuals personally who have left the church or who refuse to be part of any church because they’ve been hurt. I’m sincerely sorry for their pain … but also weary of the way they blame everyone else and sometimes use it as an excuse to be separated from God.

 

[mommy_k]

I don’t persay have this problem anymore, this is food for thought for others. I decided go to Mass and all that even if all the people hate me Besides, I do like annoying people

As to the highlighted sections:

1. This question supposes your viewpoint. A person who is not here thinks “What is this? is this what they say it is?” and before they decide yes, people have convinced them no. So they are not purposefully hurting themselves in the way that it seems to you.
2. I can not take offense, I am trying to reach those who get offended lol

As to my original post I might clear up an angle. The Principal example was with more “authority” and might only carry the image of the more mean tempered versions. But also, is the people who are offended by non-sinful lack of decorum. In a way that someone cannot speak to them with ease and gets frustrated, then creates the idea that “these people are weird and think I am evil” upon those who are not going to Church.

Again, it is the religious person’s reaction to NON SIN behavior, but they are offended and impossible to talk to.

I have seen it on this forum, much delicate sensibilities. I have decided not to care, but if I were anything but committed and encountered that while casually looking into the faith, I would be like “Pffft weirdos I am out”. My question is in the sense of reaching the casual onlooker.

Is it worse that the person offends us non-sinfully?
Or is it worse that our offense makes them stop considering the faith?
(Do not apply to me, I am here. Apply to the atheist or someone who never heard of Catholicism. How do you bring them the gospel if you are offended by them?)

If you encounter someone who is easily offended when bringing the gospel --the easily offended person can cause you to sin if you are not careful, and vice versa. Both situations are rooted in pride. Some people bring out the worst in others…
Religious arguments happen all the time.

When bringing the gospel to others-we have to meet people where they are spiritually. Some people are not ready to hear the truth, no matter how kindly it is delivered- and we are instructed to shake the dust off and move on in this case. Someone who experiences spiritual death from fraternal correction, or hearing about the gospel, is not deeply rooted, and it’s important to realize this.
When there are strongholds on both sides, conversion will probably not happen.