Dangerous Minds, not just hypocrites

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LPS said:
I used to be a moderator on a Christian board and yes, there really are people who are intentionally offensive and will defend that tactic vehemently.

But honestly, I don’t think most people are offensive intentionally. I think sometimes it’s a personality thing; other times they are at a spiritual maturity level where they truly believe they are “taking a stand for the Lord.”

Consider this - flip your proposal around. If you think a person can drive others away from God and church and are therefore responsible for that person’s soul being lost … wouldn’t it also stand to reason that a person can “save” another person’s soul?

Certainly we can help one another, “lead” others to Christ to a degree; but we don’t save others and we also don’t have the power to condemn them.

I’m not saying we won’t be held accountable for our words & actions; I think we will be. But it bothers me sometimes when I hear people blame others for their own choices.

Again, I don’t mean you specifically and I’m very happy you decided to seek Him :cool: I just know other individuals personally who have left the church or who refuse to be part of any church because they’ve been hurt. I’m sincerely sorry for their pain … but also weary of the way they blame everyone else and sometimes use it as an excuse to be separated from God.
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I am talking about not taking offense rather than being offensive…and yes I would say that someone like me for example can speak to those who many on here would scare away. But explaining God over people is difficult when the examples are few. Some who would follow me toward the church would not come when I am a minority of what they see. I would say many on here would fair better bringing in hardline protestants as much as the same kid of protestants can bring in those kind of Catholics. But in regards to atheists and lapse or those who believe kind of but question the people sometimes see me as a relatable person but also, see me as a minority and anomaly. This makes me a bit of a gap bridger, but I do not know how to sell the idea beyond myself when he that might walk with me would turn at the sight of others. It is easy for those in the cut to say it is on them…it kinda is, but I think especially for those who haven’t been away to fully understand how much the idea is lost on someone. Asking them to come to the Church does not carry the same meaning that many who are in the church percieve.

You know kind of like Jesus hanging with sinners, he could not have done so if he could not tolerate how they speak/act within a certain sense… obviously he wasn’t like “oh great sins dude!” But if they weren’t sinning, I imagine they were rough around the edges? You hang with a prostitute turned non sinner, you think she is going to talk like your sweet dear grandma? But do we scare her off because she talks a bit like a street walker even though she is despite mannerisms and speech not sinning? Or at least trying not to… i am not talking of the evil/active sinners so much as the decent person whose manner is like that of a sinner compared to some.
 
And I have had some convos with varying secular types where they see me as a sensible example, but can not reconcile my uniqueness. In a journey we seek more than one person’s opinion, more than one example. And any “good” I might do in giving someone an inclination is undone often by the next person they talk to.
 
mommy_k said:
If you encounter someone who is easily offended when bringing the gospel --the easily offended person can cause you to sin if you are not careful, and vice versa. Both situations are rooted in pride. .
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For my purpose here we assume the person is not easily offended, it is the person bronging the gospel who is so.

The pride does make a decent answer 🙂 the 2 I like your pride ans and the “they have another chance” ans earlier. Speaks volumes to me in mentality.

It reminds me of people who are wrought with anxiety etc… they often selll themselves as lacking confidence and not ego centric. But the truth is the fact that everything revolves around them is actually epic arrogance. Had a neighbor who had problems with everyone… no one else was involved, no one knew they had problems with her. Everything was personal and about her. Though her “act” would seem to be the opposite of arrogance, I came to the conclusion her pride/arrogance was beyond even the most cocky person.
 
LethalMouse said:
For my purpose here we assume the person is not easily offended, it is the person bronging the gospel who is so.

The pride does make a decent answer 🙂 the 2 I like your pride ans and the “they have another chance” ans earlier. Speaks volumes to me in mentality.

It reminds me of people who are wrought with anxiety etc… they often selll themselves as lacking confidence and not ego centric. But the truth is the fact that everything revolves around them is actually epic arrogance. Had a neighbor who had problems with everyone… no one else was involved, no one knew they had problems with her. Everything was personal and about her. Though her “act” would seem to be the opposite of arrogance, I came to the conclusion her pride/arrogance was beyond even the most cocky person.
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You’ve no business coming to what you call “conclusions” about anyone.

What about your own anyway?
 
Okay, all digression aside, I would like to hear more ideas on answers to one of my main questions of this thread:

If someone offends us non-sinfully and we send/scare them away from the church

Is it worse that they had poor decorum?

or

Is it worse that we send/scare them from the Church?
 
To add a question that applies to non sin offense:

I notice a lot of posts about "Is [insert thing] a sin. And when the answer is “No” it seems 50% of the answers are no and 50% are yes (as opposed to the clear Yes situations). How to successfully evangelize when half of the people someone meets in process of faith will create new sins that make the person think being Catholic holds a bunch o stuff that it doesn’t? Especially if someone in their heart knows it is not sinful but is being told that the faith says it is, that would make them think said faith is hooey.
 
You’re question is very interesting and is related to something I have been struggling with for a long time.

Before I go on, I just want to say I understand none of our situations are truly unique. We are all fighting the same war. But we are also on different battlefields which means the lay of the land and the tools we have are different.

I feel like sometimes the Church has given up on my generation. I grew up when Catholic education was pretty awful. But Christian culture still appeared fairly strong but it was reduced to platitudes and sound-bites filtered through a culture that was very hostile to the true message of Christianity.

My friends believe they understand Christianity from exposure to this caricature. They are highly educated individuals but their education lack exposure to some elements of philosophy, theology and ethics. They are not dumb people.

But they lack the foundation and framework to understand Christianity. The idea of objective truth, sacrificial love and redemptive suffering are concepts they’ve never really been exposed to before.

They support abortion and gay marriage because it is all they know. Most of the exposure to Christian ideas paints them as monsters and wags their fingers at them. For example, I learned about abortion in 4th grade, I learned Catholics didn’t believe abortion was just a medical procedure but was murder in 8th grade (from very angry parents.) This is what they are going up against. They aren’t really rejecting the Church’s teaching because they don’t even begin to understand the Church’s teachings. (But their lack of understanding leads to a lot of bad choices and heartache in their lives.)

My friends know that I am Catholic. But they separate their love and respect for me as a kind and moral person from the Catholic Church. When I seek help from other Catholics they just tell me only Christ can convert people (which is true, but I think we use that as an excuse) and the parishes I know and have relationships with mainly focus on their school.

There is a real push in the Catholic community to be a smaller, tighter-knit group. And I just want to scream because we can’t be smaller and more self-focus, people need our help! They need us out in the world talking to them not in our little Catholic bubbles.

I refuse to count my generation as lost but I feel like I have no resources to help me help them.

I get the OP’s complaint. I see it too.
 
Kat127 said:
You’re question is very interesting and is related to something I have been struggling with for a long time.

…They need us out in the world talking to them not in our little Catholic bubbles.

I refuse to count my generation as lost but I feel like I have no resources to help me help them.

I get the OP’s complaint. I see it too.
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Apparently I am a trial member, whatever that means and can not post pictures for why-ever that is 😦
 
LethalMouse said:
In the movie Dangerous Minds, at one point a student goes to his principal and is sent away for not knocking. As a result of being sent away the student is subsequently killed having not found the help he seeks…

In trying to bring new or lapse into the Church, we often hear the negativity of people toward “hypocrites in church” but that is the bad people pretending to be good. What about the GOOD people who send away the student?

If my point gets through, what is worse? Not knocking on the door? Or sending the student to be killed?

The principal did not know the student was going to be killed, the principal was not a “bad” man nor a hypocrite. But look what happened. So when Catholics (really any denom) are dealing with people if we over value the door knock we are sending people away, in this case a spiritual death.

This is of particular interest for me because I found humans my greatest obstacle in coming to the church and God in general. How many are like me in the world?

I ask to the people who are easily offended, the people who would walk fast away from a tattooed smoking person who uses a 4 letter word or tells a dirty joke…how many people could be being sent to a spiritual death as they run from God because they see you stand in their way?

I can’t answer “what to do about it” because I am not on the other side. So I wonder if there is someone who can bridge this gap and is like the principal but could suggest and idea that would help not have these people sent away?*

There is only one obstacle between you and God. Only one. We stand before God alone. We don’t get to say, “It was his or her fault.”

If you really want to be part of the Church people will not stand in your way. We are all sinners. It is like the old cliché “A Church is not a country club of saints. It is a hospital for sinners.”

The problem of self-righteousness and hypocrisy: We all dislike self-righteous, hypocritical and judgmental people but… The moment we point to another person and say (either out loud or to ourselves), “There goes a judgmental, self-righteous hypocrite,” We join their club.
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HelenRose said:
There is only one obstacle between you and God. Only one. We stand before God alone. We don’t get to say, “It was his or her fault.”

If you really want to be part of the Church people will not stand in your way. We are all sinners. It is like the old cliché “A Church is not a country club of saints. It is a hospital for sinners.”

The problem of self-righteousness and hypocrisy: We all dislike self-righteous, hypocritical and judgmental people but… The moment we point to another person and say (either out loud or to ourselves), “There goes a judgmental, self-righteous hypocrite,” We join their club.
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  1. This is under Evangelization, not under the forum for sit back and point/laugh at the Heathens-ization…
  2. I think you missed a large swatch of my point, and chose not to answer the main multiple choice question of the thread. I tend to wonder if hostility toward this concept doesn’t come from quilt?
May God forgive the Pharisees as he forgives the Tax Collectors
 
LethalMouse said:
  1. This is under Evangelization, not under the forum for sit back and point/laugh at the Heathens-ization…
  2. I think you missed a large swatch of my point, and chose not to answer the main multiple choice question of the thread. I tend to wonder if hostility toward this concept doesn’t come from quilt?
May God forgive the Pharisees as he forgives the Tax Collectors
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I guess in a way you are right. It is a knee jerk reaction on my part when the ever present, “they are hypocrites” argument comes up. I grew up with the belief. The example of a truly holy person can help lead a person to Christ but unless an individual is looking they won’t find that person. All of us tend to see what we want to see. If we want to see hypocrites we will see them everywhere. And you are right, the hypocrite I have to deal with the most is the one I see in the mirror.

P.S. I don’t see how the constant criticism of Christians who are doing the best they can is a great help to evangelization. When Christians constantly criticize each other and call each other hypocrites, we are only reinforcing popular beliefs.
 
HelenRose said:
I guess in a way you are right. It is a knee jerk reaction on my part when the ever present, “they are hypocrites” argument comes up. I grew up with the belief. The example of a truly holy person can help lead a person to Christ but unless an individual is looking they won’t find that person. All of us tend to see what we want to see. If we want to see hypocrites we will see them everywhere. And you are right, the hypocrite I have to deal with the most is the one I see in the mirror.
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Wow, I have all but never gotten such a response! Your post is given with an impressive humility despite my expectation that you’d get angry at my mischievous tone. You have truly impressed me today.

I would be curious as to your answer to the multiple choice as I feel you might be one of the best positioned to bridge this a bit:

The is it worse to be non sinfully offensive or is the resulting leaving due to the offense taken worse? (Note here I suggest neither is in sin)
 
Kat127 said:
…

There is a real push in the Catholic community to be a smaller, tighter-knit group. And I just want to scream because we can’t be smaller and more self-focus, people need our help! They need us out in the world talking to them not in our little Catholic bubbles.

I refuse to count my generation as lost but I feel like I have no resources to help me help them.

…
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There is everything to be said for catching up lost ground in looking after “Us” because if the results of that aren’t to be seen there will be no attraction for the “Them” that God will want us to open up to in a few years’ time if not before just like you say.

We need to make an especial point to include the different (e.g non-Irish or not having been to Catholic schools) and base it on fresh core ideas (Scripture, Holy Spirit, fellowship).

Minor snapping and grumbling between enquirers and apologists is one thing. What I lived through was bigger than that.
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
There is everything to be said for catching up lost ground in looking after “Us” …
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There are some benefits to that, yes. But if I may challenge this idea a little.

Part of the reason we are in this mess is because we (as a Church) allowed our influence in mainstream culture to deteriorate. I have a hard time understanding how stepping back further helps.

If we do step back, how long? Months turn into years which turn into decades. I would argue we have already been focusing on ourselves for years now.

I have found a lot of Catholic who make the circle the wagons argument and also the ones who are so very surprised by how hostile the world is to Catholics. This lack of understanding of the modern world makes me wonder if we are hiding in our Church and communities rather than gearing up for the next fight.

I don’t know what the right answer is. But as much power as we have lost the Church is still very a very culturally relevant and influential institution. I don’t understand this seemingly defeatist attitude about why we have to lick our wounds and regroup.
 
LethalMouse said:
Not sure exactly what you are looking for?

But I will say you don’t meet atheists or lapse people in the church, you can only be a part of bringing them home out in the world or in some cases on the internet. I think a internet convo might shine some light on the subject

GIRL: Idk sometimes it is hard to find a guy, most of the guys I see I just think eww.

ME: Are you sure you don’t need counseling for being on the other team?

SomeOtherCatholicGuy: Over the line

ME: Huh?

GIRL: Who me?

SOCG: No, LM that is too far

GIRL: Umm No it is fine

SOCG: No it isn’t he shouldn’t say that

GIRL: We are friends, it was a joke he knows I am not.

SOCG: No it doesn’t matter if you are friends he shouldn’t say that

GIRL: Chill out dude, if I am not offended you shouldn’t be

SOCG: ugh w/e I think it is inapporpriate.

The SOCG and the offense…OMG if I didn’t make my decision to be here in spite of people I would not want to be here. This is one instance, but soooo many like it. The guy was earnestly offended. It is ridiculous, and the idea of this being the kind of people one has to talk to in church circles, makes a “normal” person think church people are nuts. It is why even as I am a practicing Catholic (Mass, lent, prayers etc) I still refer to myself and “religious people” as two different things. I won’t be lumped in with them.

**

As GIRL in this particular convo, I can attest that it is essentially correct. I was miffed this newly arrived third party was getting all upset on my behalf, as if I wasn’t perfectly capable of telling off LM if I thought it was warranted. I agree with LM, it gets annoying when I get lumped in with all the sensitive people. I’m hard line on the hard lines, but I tolerate the little stuff, and I’ll let it be known when the line is reached.
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