Dangerous piety?

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kblorraine

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I didn’t know where else to turn for some kind of guidance.

A family member of mine, someone I admire greatly and one of the few Catholics in my family, has been slipping deeper and deeper into a spirituality that feels very ‘wrong’ to me. On the outside she seems hyper pious. She wears head coverings, she honors Catholic traditions, she loves the Church… but when she talks to me she says things that disturb me deeply.

“Anyone who attends NO Mass is a bad Catholic.”

“There are no good Catholics in our entire diocese.”

“There are no good priests in our entire diocese.”

“This entire country is a cesspool of evil and sin.”

“Our Bishop is heretical and evil.”

It goes on and on. She despairs constantly about the sin in the world and often tries to lead me to join her by passive aggressively attacking how I live my life. Making comments like: “I’m so glad for my children. Without them I would be apathetic and be content with the NO Mass but because of them I am well on my way to sainthood.”

As I said, on the surface she appears very pious and Catholic but when you dig deeper I just get despair, oodles of pride and anger. So much anger.

In the past I have not confronted her about these ideas but recently I have tried fighting back. I’ve tried telling her about all the wonderful, faithful Catholics I’ve met in our local parishes but she scoffs and mocks and makes it VERY clear they are NOT faithful, how could they be… they attend the NO Mass.

I’ve tried combating the idea that our Bishop and priests are ALL corrupt by pointing out that it is NOT my place to judge them. GOD put them in their positions and it is my job only to pray for them… but she responds with more scoffing, more mocking and anger.

I’ve tried combating her anger with love and patience, by reminding her that all these ‘sinners’ are God’s children and we are to minister to them but she makes comments about letting them rot in their sin because they’re too lazy to pull themselves out and nothing short of a miracle can ever save them.

Recently, in a moment of despair, I spoke to another family member about her (yes, I know, sinful but I was just at such a loss) and this family member told me that she has long felt a deep oppression from her and avoids her because of it.

The lady I’m worried about has commented that she has no desire to bring ANYONE to Christ because they will be stuck in this evil Church that exists in Canada… and this upset me so much I just didn’t know what to say.

I have been praying for her but I’m so confused. How can this happen to someone who loves the Church, who studies the faith, who, on the surface, is so pious?

It makes me frightened to study the faith. it was studying the faith that brought her to this place she’s in now.

At this point she refuses to attend Mass as our only parishes are NO. I’ve tried reminding her that Christ is still present but she argues that her children’s souls are at risk and the liturgy is so bastardized at our local parishes that taking her children would risk their very souls.

How can I help her? CAN I help her? Are there any saints and/or novenas that might help?

I have gotten to the point where I can’t speak to her without being overcome with anxiety. Sometimes I cry for hours after speaking to her. The spirit that surrounds her is just so overwhelming, so sad, so despairing…

I want, desperately, to help. Please pray.

Thank you.
 
kblorraine said:
I didn’t know where else to turn for some kind of guidance.

A family member of mine, someone I admire greatly and one of the few Catholics in my family, has been slipping deeper and deeper into a spirituality that feels very ‘wrong’ to me. On the outside she seems hyper pious. She wears head coverings, she honors Catholic traditions, she loves the Church… but when she talks to me she says things that disturb me deeply.

“Anyone who attends NO Mass is a bad Catholic.”

“There are no good Catholics in our entire diocese.”

“There are no good priests in our entire diocese.”

“This entire country is a cesspool of evil and sin.”

“Our Bishop is heretical and evil.”

It goes on and on. She despairs constantly about the sin in the world and often tries to lead me to join her by passive aggressively attacking how I live my life. Making comments like: “I’m so glad for my children. Without them I would be apathetic and be content with the NO Mass but because of them I am well on my way to sainthood.”

As I said, on the surface she appears very pious and Catholic but when you dig deeper I just get despair, oodles of pride and anger. So much anger.

In the past I have not confronted her about these ideas but recently I have tried fighting back. I’ve tried telling her about all the wonderful, faithful Catholics I’ve met in our local parishes but she scoffs and mocks and makes it VERY clear they are NOT faithful, how could they be… they attend the NO Mass.

I’ve tried combating the idea that our Bishop and priests are ALL corrupt by pointing out that it is NOT my place to judge them. GOD put them in their positions and it is my job only to pray for them… but she responds with more scoffing, more mocking and anger.

I’ve tried combating her anger with love and patience, by reminding her that all these ‘sinners’ are God’s children and we are to minister to them but she makes comments about letting them rot in their sin because they’re too lazy to pull themselves out and nothing short of a miracle can ever save them.

Recently, in a moment of despair, I spoke to another family member about her (yes, I know, sinful but I was just at such a loss) and this family member told me that she has long felt a deep oppression from her and avoids her because of it.

The lady I’m worried about has commented that she has no desire to bring ANYONE to Christ because they will be stuck in this evil Church that exists in Canada… and this upset me so much I just didn’t know what to say.

I have been praying for her but I’m so confused. How can this happen to someone who loves the Church, who studies the faith, who, on the surface, is so pious?

It makes me frightened to study the faith. it was studying the faith that brought her to this place she’s in now.

At this point she refuses to attend Mass as our only parishes are NO. I’ve tried reminding her that Christ is still present but she argues that her children’s souls are at risk and the liturgy is so bastardized at our local parishes that taking her children would risk their very souls.

How can I help her? CAN I help her? Are there any saints and/or novenas that might help?

I have gotten to the point where I can’t speak to her without being overcome with anxiety. Sometimes I cry for hours after speaking to her. The spirit that surrounds her is just so overwhelming, so sad, so despairing…

I want, desperately, to help. Please pray.

Thank you.
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What is NO mass? Do not be afraid to follow Christ because of temptations. Her behavior is bizarre. I think it is the work of the evil one. He tempts the pious. I do not know her soul. She sounds paranoid and judgmental. Does she think she is epitome of the right Christian life? Be gentle with her.
 
PelagiathePenit said:
What is NO mass? Do not be afraid to follow Christ because of temptations. Her behavior is bizarre. I think it is the work of the evil one. He tempts the pious. I do not know her soul. She sounds paranoid and judgmental. Does she think she is epitome of the right Christian life? Be gentle with her.
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Do you know of any novenas and/or saints who might be useful in praying for her? But also for me. I don’t want to give up on her but I really do despair when I speak to her. I find it very overwhelming at times but I don’t want to cut her out.

She despairs at how she has no friends left but honestly she is very, very difficult to be with at this point.

She SAYS with her lips that she knows she is flawed but her actions speak louder and her actions scream that she thinks she is the only pious Catholic in the world.
 
kblorraine said:
Do you know of any novenas and/or saints who might be useful in praying for her? But also for me. I don’t want to give up on her but I really do despair when I speak to her. I find it very overwhelming at times but I don’t want to cut her out.

She despairs at how she has no friends left but honestly she is very, very difficult to be with at this point.

She SAYS with her lips that she knows she is flawed but her actions speak louder and her actions scream that she thinks she is the only pious Catholic in the world.
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Patron saint of hopeless cases - st. Rita or St. Monica. What is NO mass though?
 
Her behavior maybe a result of a mental illness. I knew someone who behaved this say and she was diagnosed with a mental illness.
 
PelagiathePenit said:
Her behavior maybe a result of a mental illness. I knew someone who behaved this say and she was diagnosed with a mental illness.
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I don’t know. She wasn’t like this before. I tend to think it’s some kind of oppression, spiritually she disturbs myself and others. I don’t know if mental illness would have the same reaction?
 
Dangerous piety is like what Judge Claude Frollo experienced in The Hunchback of Notre Dame. He was a devout Catholic that condemned anyone that was not like him. He even prayed to Mary for her to destroy Esmeralda, who he thought was a witch. Frollo thought he was doing God’s work, but he was acting against what Jesus taught. Jesus taught about love and kindness. Frollo had strong hatred within his heart. He ultimately died while trying to kill Esmeralda. You can share this story with your family member.
 
I know the person OP is speaking about and honestly I don’t know that anything can be done. Glad you’re asking for help though! <3
 
Prayer for anyone is key. I will pray for this person soon, and for any anxiety you have to be relieved. God bless.
 
kblorraine said:
I didn’t know where else to turn for some kind of guidance.

A family member of mine, someone I admire greatly and one of the few Catholics in my family, has been slipping deeper and deeper into a spirituality that feels very ‘wrong’ to me. On the outside she seems hyper pious. She wears head coverings, she honors Catholic traditions, she loves the Church… but when she talks to me she says things that disturb me deeply.

“Anyone who attends NO Mass is a bad Catholic.”

“There are no good Catholics in our entire diocese.”

“There are no good priests in our entire diocese.”

“This entire country is a cesspool of evil and sin.”

“Our Bishop is heretical and evil.”

It goes on and on. She despairs constantly about the sin in the world and often tries to lead me to join her by passive aggressively attacking how I live my life. Making comments like: “I’m so glad for my children. Without them I would be apathetic and be content with the NO Mass but because of them I am well on my way to sainthood.”

As I said, on the surface she appears very pious and Catholic but when you dig deeper I just get despair, oodles of pride and anger. So much anger.

In the past I have not confronted her about these ideas but recently I have tried fighting back. I’ve tried telling her about all the wonderful, faithful Catholics I’ve met in our local parishes but she scoffs and mocks and makes it VERY clear they are NOT faithful, how could they be… they attend the NO Mass.

I’ve tried combating the idea that our Bishop and priests are ALL corrupt by pointing out that it is NOT my place to judge them. GOD put them in their positions and it is my job only to pray for them… but she responds with more scoffing, more mocking and anger.

I’ve tried combating her anger with love and patience, by reminding her that all these ‘sinners’ are God’s children and we are to minister to them but she makes comments about letting them rot in their sin because they’re too lazy to pull themselves out and nothing short of a miracle can ever save them.

Recently, in a moment of despair, I spoke to another family member about her (yes, I know, sinful but I was just at such a loss) and this family member told me that she has long felt a deep oppression from her and avoids her because of it.

The lady I’m worried about has commented that she has no desire to bring ANYONE to Christ because they will be stuck in this evil Church that exists in Canada… and this upset me so much I just didn’t know what to say.

I have been praying for her but I’m so confused. How can this happen to someone who loves the Church, who studies the faith, who, on the surface, is so pious?

It makes me frightened to study the faith. it was studying the faith that brought her to this place she’s in now.

At this point she refuses to attend Mass as our only parishes are NO. I’ve tried reminding her that Christ is still present but she argues that her children’s souls are at risk and the liturgy is so bastardized at our local parishes that taking her children would risk their very souls.

How can I help her? CAN I help her? Are there any saints and/or novenas that might help?

I have gotten to the point where I can’t speak to her without being overcome with anxiety. Sometimes I cry for hours after speaking to her. The spirit that surrounds her is just so overwhelming, so sad, so despairing…

I want, desperately, to help. Please pray.

Thank you.
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It seems like she has fallen in with Sedevacanists. They believe that there has been no valid Popes since Vatican II and the refuse to be obedient to the Pope. They are in schism. Her soul is in grave danger yes. She probably very well believes that all of what she says is true and that she is enlightening you
Don’t buy into it,
Pray fervently for her return to the Church. I would implore directly to Christ and His Holy Mother Mary.
 
She may be a sedevacantist, or someone associated with the Society of St. Pius X, which is schism. As a more traditional catholic myself, I fell into that circle when I got onto some sedevacantist webpage (I know…). Now I am loyal to Rome.

You should learn apologetics against them in order to win her over, and to pray for her. It’s very possible to get her back into faith. Many appealing things to traditionalism, like the Ancient Mass, the latin, the veiling, the specific rituals, ect. All good things that the Church has used for so long…But schism with Rome was something Roman Catholics have never done.

If she’s this class, instead of her going to SSPX/sedevacantist chapels/churchs, invite her to go to a FSSP (Fraternity of St. Peter) (loyal to Rome) or Institute of Christ the Sovereign King (also loyal to Rome) chapel/church

Bless you abundantly, and I know it’s very hard, but you can do it.

Here’s 3 sites for some help:
historyandapologetics.com/p/church-history-and-sspx.html

catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/my-journey-out-of-the-lefebvre-schism.html

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14020568
***(this one is RPRPsych’s answer)
 
The best person to speak to privately about this matter is your parish priest.
Depending on how piously she is acting, she may indeed need professional help.
Unless she is a danger to herself or other, she is the only person who can decide to get that help.
Do continue to pray for her.
 
DebChris said:
The best person to speak to privately about this matter is your parish priest.
Depending on how piously she is acting, she may indeed need professional help.
Unless she is a danger to herself or other, she is the only person who can decide to get that help.
Do continue to pray for her.
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👍
 
I have seen people like this. Your family member is mentally ill, most likely. It sounds as if she has been reading some fanatic material that probably is not approved by the church. Even if her piety began as genuine, it has gone too far. But, it is almost impossible to get thru to a person like that. Prayer is probably all you can do for her, unless she abuses others physically. So, just pray. It may feel as if it is doing no good, but God hears.
 
This may sound cliched, but I wouldn’t worry about it.

The faith is simple, childlike, prayerful. If you have to study the faith to the point that you feel that you’re so incredibly intelligent that you know better than a Bishop or a Pope, then, ah I don’t know… you’re probably doing it wrong.
 
kblorraine said:
I didn’t know where else to turn for some kind of guidance.

A family member of mine, someone I admire greatly and one of the few Catholics in my family, has been slipping deeper and deeper into a spirituality that feels very ‘wrong’ to me. On the outside she seems hyper pious. She wears head coverings, she honors Catholic traditions, she loves the Church… but when she talks to me she says things that disturb me deeply.

“Anyone who attends NO Mass is a bad Catholic.”

“There are no good Catholics in our entire diocese.”

“There are no good priests in our entire diocese.”

“This entire country is a cesspool of evil and sin.”

“Our Bishop is heretical and evil.”

It goes on and on. She despairs constantly about the sin in the world and often tries to lead me to join her by passive aggressively attacking how I live my life. Making comments like: “I’m so glad for my children. Without them I would be apathetic and be content with the NO Mass but because of them I am well on my way to sainthood.”

As I said, on the surface she appears very pious and Catholic but when you dig deeper I just get despair, oodles of pride and anger. So much anger.

/…/

I have been praying for her but I’m so confused. How can this happen to someone who loves the Church, who studies the faith, who, on the surface, is so pious?

It makes me frightened to study the faith. it was studying the faith that brought her to this place she’s in now.

At this point she refuses to attend Mass as our only parishes are NO. I’ve tried reminding her that Christ is still present but she argues that her children’s souls are at risk and the liturgy is so bastardized at our local parishes that taking her children would risk their very souls.

How can I help her? CAN I help her? Are there any saints and/or novenas that might help?

I have gotten to the point where I can’t speak to her without being overcome with anxiety. Sometimes I cry for hours after speaking to her. The spirit that surrounds her is just so overwhelming, so sad, so despairing…

I want, desperately, to help. Please pray.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
I am very sorry for your family member. I will remember her also in my prayers.

It is a great tragedy today that people can be so easily wooed by extremist positions and people, such as she has apparently encountered, because of what technology facilitates relative to having contacts that were not readily possible in another era.

If such persons lack a sufficient foundation to assess, properly and critically, intellectual concepts and positions they become exposed to, they can fall into the thrall of people and ideas that are not only wrong but exceedingly detrimental…especially if the person has underlying issues or weaknesses of a psychological or behavioural nature. They are vulnerable to the mindset of cults and extremism which leads to the very sorts of statements that you relate in your post.

In my years as a priest, I have had to deal with these issues in a variety of circumstances…often enough not this extreme, thankfully, but then there are times when it has been every bit this extreme.

I think, frankly, your ability to help her maybe quite limited, since you relate the impact that the effort is having on you on the one hand and the militancy of the other person on the other hand.

I don’t know what part of Canada that you are in but if you have access to priests such as those at the Oratory of Toronto or the Benedictine monks of British Columbia, Saskatchewan or Quebec, they could be a resource for you…at least in terms of shoring you up.

At the point a person has tipped over the edge and sees themselves/their group as the only one “faithful” and everyone else “unfaithful,” there is a profound sect mentality present…tragically. To find their way out of that, the individual has to overcome that – which is a choice that ultimately they alone can make. No one can make it for them. Unfortunately, it sounds rather like she has burned the bridges that would allow her to take herself from the gloomy place where she is dwelling to the barque of Peter.

As for your latter questions…one can love the Church and have piety but it is always essential to sentire cum ecclesia – to think with the Church. If one’s involvements are, in fact, isolating the person from the koinonia, the communion, with the greater Church throughout the world…that is a warning sign. The “us” against “them” mindset is a warning sign.

A Dominican friar, for example, can be enriched and renewed by a retreat at a Benedictine monastery where he encounters and lives a tradition outside the charism he lives daily. When someone fears “contamination” by interaction with others in the Catholic world who are living Catholicism in another way…that is a warning sign. The sense of isolationism is also a warning sign.

You should not be afraid to study the faith. I devoted my life to it in two senses…I am an academic who, even in retirement, is always still doing research and writing. And, on the other hand, I devoted years and years to teaching. I still lecture in retirement.

One must always preserve one’s absolute link to the Magisterium of the Church. What is the Pope teaching? What are the bishops of the world teaching? When one is reading theologians or other writers, one measures them…not against the past or some ideal in one’s mind but against the Church’s Magisterium as it is living today. As Pope Saint John Paul II said: “It is impossible to remain faithful to the Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his Church.” I hope your family member finds again that truth.
 
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