Dare to consider Judaism

[KindredSoul]

I’m not sure what “evidence” you expect for a creation story other than the fact that there is a universe lying about.

I love the simple “Captain Obvious” factor of the way that was worded!

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[AdrianP]

One more aspect: When people went to OLD LAW they went 100% to OLD LAW. They din’t go 40% to PRE OLD LAW and 60% to OLD LAW, they didn’t argue Moses was born in PRE OLD LAW, they didn say we need to pick and choose, lets keep this and this and this and this from PRE OLD LAW and the rest from OLD LAW, NO, they went 100% to OLD LAW. I don’t think there si a reason for protestantism to go back to aspects of OLD LAW. Holyy Communion and Baptism are several aspects of the New Christian Church , there were others too.

What I would like for Catholicism is to look into the prayer for the departed that are even today in Orthodox Christian Holy Liturgy.Orthodox Church uses Holy Liturgy from around year 380 . In this Holy Liturgy there are prayers for the dead and living that are read in front of GOD and angels. They are very powerful and there are miracles saying 40 such prayers for a dead person can take his soul from Hell. If I would have a wish for Catholic Church would be to re-instantiate prayers for the departed . Obviously Apostle Mark the Evangelist and Apostle James believed these prayers are useful since both their Liturgies contained prayers for the departed. My 2 cents.

 

[scapularkid8]

Why do Paul and Jesus contradict each other?

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

Hebrews 10:9
“then he added ‘Behold I have come to do your Will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second”

 

[AJTheMan]

But they didn’t. They altered the creation story in ways that have had a profound effect on our civilization.

I’m not sure what “evidence” you expect for a creation story other than the fact that there is a universe lying about.

Edwin

But that doesn’t make it unique. All that means is that I happened to be born in a place where Judeo Christian stories are prevalent.

 

[4EverHis]

Actually one of the reasons that made me even consider Judaism is because it’s clear that these were the first people to connect/respond/interact with a God that existed outside of time/reality and was not subject to human thoughts and desires and wasn’t petty and jealous like the other pagan gods of the time. Even modern scholarship admits that, regardless of Jewish mythology etc., their God was uniquely different from any other idea of gods at the time and continued to be that way even after the Romans had kicked out the Greeks when the Jews had rebuilt their Temple after the exile. This is thousands of years of the Jews worshiping and interacting with a single, unconstrained, all powerful God.

God revealed Himself to the Jews to prepare them for Christ

 

[KindredSoul]

Why do Paul and Jesus contradict each other?

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

Hebrews 10:9
“then he added ‘Behold I have come to do your Will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second”

It seems that Jesus and Paul are talking in two different contexts.

It seems that, as applicable to a universal New Covenant, Jesus upheld the Moral Code of the Law; in other ways–such as His teachings about the Sabbath–He established that the Legal part of the Law was not integral to the New Covenant. This distinction makes sense, actually. The Old Covenant’s legal aspects were bound to a nation, and even when the Jews were in exile they understood that the fullest expression of the Law could only be lived out in the context of their national identity as a religious state. Therefore all manner of legal laws would have applied which are only relevant if there is a concrete national entity to which to apply them. To some extent, this is even true of the sacrifices in the Temple. How could a Jew who didn’t live in the same nation as the Temple, for instance, be expected to have an involved religious relationship demanding his occasional presence there? Even purity laws, food laws, circumcision, prescribed punishments and all of these such things served a purpose that was not only religious but practical for the purposes of national identity: They made Israel observably identifiable as a unique nation. Without a national identity to preserve, many of these things naturally lose their fullest meaning.

Despite what we have just established, one might still conclude that Jesus didn’t even technically abolish even the Legal aspect of the Law, and that Christian Jews who lived in Ancient Israel might arguably have still been legally, even if not morally, bound by it just as American Christians are legally bound by American Law even though those laws are not integral to Christianity itself; but the Israelite Law simply, by natural consequence of its legal nature, isn’t universally binding in the Covenant Jesus was establishing, which was not with a physical nation but a physically fluid, spiritual kingdom.

Of course, we should not deny or water down that, even within the context of Israel as a nation, Jesus put new demands upon the Law–having to be sinless in order to carry out the death sentence for such crimes as adultery (and implicitly any other non-lethal sins that, in that legal system, warranted capital punishment), realizing that the Sabbath was not to legalistically prevent a person from doing good, etc…but even these are additions and clarifications to the Law, such as Jesus as God Incarnate had a right to make, rather than an abolition of it in any way, though still of course even then the Law in its legal aspects would have been in context of the Israelite nation. This was true from its inception.

Paul, on the other hand, was speaking of the fact that the New Covenant is now the supreme means of having a relationship with God; whereas, before Christ came, becoming a member of Israel and thus being bound to the Law as a legal code was that means (ideally speaking), now that the New Covenant had come along, which did not imply that one should ideally take on the national identity of an Israelite, observing the Legal Code that only applied to a legal Israelite was no longer necessary for an ideal relationship with God. As the New Covenant establishes a kingdom of a different kind, one not measurable by physical boundaries or identifiable in the way physical nations are identified, it was inappropriate that anyone should assume that the New Covenant required the same legal laws or cultural prescriptions as the Old Covenant, at least fully observed, would.

It seems that Jesus is reminding us that the Law as a moral code, those moral prescriptions which are universal and not bound to the accidents of nation or race, never passes away. Paul is telling us that the the Law as a legal code, which was never meant to apply to any entity besides the Israelite nation, is not necessary for salvation under the New Covenant.

I hope this helps.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[Lapell]

Hi all!

I really don’t know where to start, so I’m just going to dive in.
I’m 20 years old, born and raised Catholic in a strong Catholic house that
practices.

My whole life I have followed my beliefs without much question, but until
recently.

I have been blessed to encounter Jews in my life recently over the course of attending college. After talking with one friend
in particular (Benjamin), I got curious/serious about what they actually believe
regarding God and Jesus, and I’ve been researching for a couple months now.

I have to say, from what I have seen so far, the cards are not stacked in Jesus’
favor that he was the Messiah by jewish definition (from what I’ve found).
Doubts are also beginning to surface for me on why/how God would become a man,
why a follower of this man (Paul) would say Gentiles don’t have to follow the
Torah, and why the concept of a Trinity could ever exist (“Hear, Israel…The
Lord is One”).

Things I find attractive about Judaism are many:
I’ve always been pulled toward the sense of family that they seem to share, even
among the less religious or even secular jews. I don’t see that among Christians
which is sad. I love the idea that the Torah was revealed to all of them/their
ancestors in front of their faces (as opposed to an upper room, a temple
corridor, a mountain cave [Muhammed/Islam, Joseph Smith/LDS]).
I love the view that sin is a very personal matter between God and the sinner to
be worked out between just these two entities. I love the respect they have for
God’s Word and Presence, all among other things.

Well, I don’t know what type of response I’m even expecting, so just reply as
you want and we can discuss from there. I’m just curious what a former Jew would
say to a Catholic looking seriously at Judaism. Or if there are any Jews or former Jews here I could talk with? thanks

For one thing, ScapularKid8, chances are you will hear much more from non-Orthodox Jews than from the Orthodox ones. Believe me, they do differ on many topics. And while most believe there is an afterlife, there are some who don’t, a bit like the Saducees in Jesus’ days.
As for what Jews who have not become Christians would say about Jesus, don’t expect them to agree with the Christians on His Messiahship, even less about His being God the Son, no less! Many fight against this notion. They use clever arguments, but it doesn’t mean at all that all of their arguments are true… even when they are sincere. One can be sincere and utter false things without his knowing it!.. That being said, the Jews have always been a great people and still are.

 

[Lapell]

Why do Paul and Jesus contradict each other?

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

Hebrews 10:9
“then he added ‘Behold I have come to do your Will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second”

It’s not even certain that Hebrews was written by Paul, for one thing! Also, it’s clear Jesus never abolished the Ten Commandments.

 

[Lapell]

To be honest, i think it is sad that you are considering leaving Christ
I’ve talked to a Jewish person who became a Catholic. He became a Catholic simply because he discovered Jesus and because he realized how much Jesus loves us. He says he didn’t really feel close to God before, but now it’s much different. Stories like taht show that it’s only through Christ that we can come to the Father…only through Christ can we have a relationship with God, because He bridged the gap between our sinful humanity and His divinity. How else can we, mortal sinful humans, know God, unless He Himself takes on human nature?

the reason the Trinity exists is because God is love. The Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, the Holy Spirit, …that is how God COULD be love even before He made the world. If God was only one person, He could not be love, because He would have no one else to love and to give Himself to (love is self gift) before Creation.

another thing… Jesus fulfilled so many prophesies for the Messiah. THe odds of him fulfilling even a few of them are almost impossible. He is either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord… but He doesn’t speak like a crazy person… He definitely isn’t a liar… that leaves only one option…

God bless

One may argue that God made Himself known to the Israelites without even having to take a human form! The Logos who is God took a human form not just to make God be known… better, but for our redemption and our salvation, since no mere man was able to do that because of his shortcomings…

 

[Lapell]

One may argue that God made Himself known to the Israelites without even having to take a human form! The Logos who is God took a human form not just to make God be known… better, but for our redemption and our salvation, since no mere man was able to do that because of his shortcomings…

Of course, many even deny the very human need for redemption and salvation from sins and our condition of separation from God since the original sin.

 

[Lapell]

Actually one of the reasons that made me even consider Judaism is because it’s clear that these were the first people to connect/respond/interact with a God that existed outside of time/reality and was not subject to human thoughts and desires and wasn’t petty and jealous like the other pagan gods of the time. Even modern scholarship admits that, regardless of Jewish mythology etc., their God was uniquely different from any other idea of gods at the time and continued to be that way even after the Romans had kicked out the Greeks when the Jews had rebuilt their Temple after the exile. This is thousands of years of the Jews worshiping and interacting with a single, unconstrained, all powerful God.

Actually, Christianity is in some way Judaism brought a step further, but that step further was considered a heresy and a blasphemy by the Jewish authorities of Jesus’ days. That someone would dare to claim equality with God Himself certainly was seen as a blasphemy.

 

[Lapell]

And there are Jews who think Jesus to have been a good man, but not equal to God though…

 

[AdrianP]

Look here:
New Law is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Old Law and Christianity is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Judaism and is not supposed to follow JUDAISM

amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdThread=Tx3SL6ITIY9PDCW&displayType=tagsDetail

Matthew 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

This is from a Protestant web site. I don’t have the capacity to take one by one and analyse this but however, as an information it gives you an idea about differences between OLD LAW and NEW LAW.

Mosaic Covenant New Covenant
Came by Moses John 1:17 Came by Christ Heb. 8:6, 9:15
Law of Moses Acts 13:38-39 Law of Christ Gal. 6:2
Law of sin Rom. 7:5-6 Law of righteousness Rom. 9:30-31
Law of the flesh Rom. 7:5-6 Law of the Spirit Rom. 8:2
Not of faith Gal. 3:2 Law of faith Rom. 3:27
Yoke of bondage Gal. 5:1 Law of liberty Jam. 1:25
Ended by Christ Rom. 10:4 Established by Christ Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Law of death II Cor. 3:7 Law of life Gal. 3:11, 6:8
Entangles Gal. 5:1 Makes free John 8:32, 36
A shadow Col. 2:14-17 The reality Heb. 10:1-18
Fulfilled Mat. 5:17-18 Now in force Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Leaves imperfect Heb. 7:19 Makes perfect Heb. 7:19
Glorious II Cor. 3:7 More glorious II Cor. 3:8-10
Powerless to save Heb. 9:9, 10:4 Saves to uttermost Heb. 7:25
Many sacrifices Heb. 9:12-13 One sacrifice for sin Heb. 10:12
Temporary priest Heb. 7:23 Eternal priest Heb. 7:17
Remembers sins Heb. 10:3 Forgets sins Heb. 8:12, 10:17
Yearly atonement Heb. 10:3 Eternal atonement Heb. 10:14
Priests have sin Heb. 5:1-4 Sinless priest Heb. 7:26
Aaronic priesthood >Heb. 7:11 Melchisedec priesthood Heb. 5:5-10, 7:21
Out of Levi Heb 7:11 Out of Judah Heb. 7:14
Animal sacrifices Heb. 9:12 Human sacrifice Heb. 9:14-28
Earthly tabernacle Heb. 9:2 Heavenly tabernacle Heb. 8:2
Imperfect mediator Gal. 3:19 Sinless mediator I Tim. 2:5
No inheritance Rom. 4:13 Eternal inheritance Heb. 9:15
Instituted upon animal blood Heb. 9:16-22 Instituted upon blood of Christ Mat. 26-28
Works wrath Rom. 4:15 Saves from wrath Rom. 5:9
Non-redeeming Heb. 10:4 Redeems Gal. 3:13, Heb. 9:12-15
Non-pleasing Ps. 40:6 Pleasing to God Heb 10:5-18
Abolishment predicted Is. 51:6 Establishment predicted Heb. 8:7
Circumcision Ex. 12:48 No circumcision Rom. 4:9-12
Made to change Heb. 7:12, Gal. 3:25 Made eternal Heb. 13:20
Faulty Heb. 8:7 Perfect James 1:25
Weak Heb. 7:18 Strong Heb. 7:25
Unprofitable Heb. 7:18 Profitable Heb. 7:19,25
Natural program Heb. 9:10-14 Spiritual program II Cor. 3:6, 18
Daily program Heb. 7:27 Finished program Heb. 10:10-18
Infirm high priests Heb. 5:2, 7:28 Perfect high priest Heb. 7:26
Made priests by law Heb. 7:12, 28 Made priests by an oath Heb. 7:21, 28
No salvation Heb. 10:2-4 Eternal salvation Heb. 5:9, 10:10
Perfected nothing Heb. 7:19 Perfects believers Heb. 7:19, 10:14
Earthly priests Heb. 5:1-4 Heavenly priest Heb. 9:24, 10:12
Repeated inability Heb. 10:11 Glorious success Heb. 10:10-18
Many offerings Heb. 9:7 One offering Heb. 10:10-14
Good promises Dt. 28:1-14 Better promises Heb. 8:6
A good covenant Rom 7:12 A better covenant Heb. 7:22, 8:6
Many high priests Heb. 7:23 One high priest Heb. 7:24-28
Typical tabernacle Heb. 9 True tabernacle Heb. 8:2, 9:11
No mercy Heb. 10:28 Complete mercy Heb. 8:12
Handmade things Heb. 9:1-5, 24 Not handmade Heb. 9:23-24
An old way Heb. 8:13 New and living way Heb. 10:19-20
Unavailing ministers Heb. 7:18 Able ministers II Cor. 3:6
Carnal ministry Heb. 9:9-10 Spiritual ministry II Cor. 3:6
Ministration of condemnation II Cor. 3:9 Ministration of righteousness II Cor. 3:9
Glory covered II Cor. 3:13 Glory uncovered II Cor. 3:18
Brings bondage Gal. 4:24-25 Brings liberty II Cor. 3:17
Cannot justify Gal. 2:16 Does justify Acts 13:38-39
Brings a curse Gal. 3:10 Redeems from the curse Gal. 3:13
Live by works Gal 3:10 Live by faith Gal. 3:11
Cannot give life Gal. 3:21 Does give life John 6:63-68
Exposes sin Gal 3:19 Covers sin Rom. 4:1-8
Under law Rom 6:14-15 Under grace Gal. 3:22-25
Done away II Cor. 3:7-14 Not done away II Cor. 3:11
Abolished II Cor. 3:13 Continues glorious II Cor. 3:11
Ministry of death II Cor. 3:7 Reconciliation ministry II Cor. 5:18
For Israel only Dt. 4:7-8, 5:3 For all men Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24

If you want to be part of NEW LAW you can come to Catholic or ORTHODOX CHURCH I think Judaism is following the OLD LAW. I think that Islam and Protestantism may be in between.

What come from new LAW:
HOLY COMMUNION for eternal life.
John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
BAPTISM and the 7 MYSTERIES.

Orthodox Christianity beside most religious doesn’t stop to this life an through the 7 Mysteries can work in the other life.
At Pentecost Apostles received Holy Spirit and gave it to Bishops and to priests to ordination. Bishops could give Holy Spirit to other priests in ordination. By receiving Holy Spirit through ordination the Priests are TRUE priests and they can FORGIVE SINS, they can give Holy Communion for eternal life and such.
Now Luther not being a bishop could not ordain priests so I don’t know what protestants priests can do, Hopefull they can do everything but I don’t know and there si a RISK being protestant .

 

[jake23]

although Judaism was the first known aknowledgement of God and his covenants it has become a religion of the confused and lost and even though God can be forgiving shouldnt we do our best not to disapoint him which judaism today is. You will never be fully welcomed in the jewish religion. nomatter how devout of a Jew you become you cannot even be allowed to be burried in a jewish cemetary! My eyes are wide open and my ears are keen of hearing and they both tell me God is no way in the sinagagues! True Judaism that pleased God turned into the catholic church when Christ reigned on earth! Anything else is counterfeit.

 

[ErichK]

Hi all!

I really don’t know where to start, so I’m just going to dive in.
I’m 20 years old, born and raised Catholic in a strong Catholic house that
practices.

My whole life I have followed my beliefs without much question, but until
recently.

I have been blessed to encounter Jews in my life recently over the course of attending college. After talking with one friend
in particular (Benjamin), I got curious/serious about what they actually believe
regarding God and Jesus, and I’ve been researching for a couple months now.

I have to say, from what I have seen so far, the cards are not stacked in Jesus’
favor that he was the Messiah by jewish definition (from what I’ve found).
Doubts are also beginning to surface for me on why/how God would become a man,
why a follower of this man (Paul) would say Gentiles don’t have to follow the
Torah, and why the concept of a Trinity could ever exist (“Hear, Israel…The
Lord is One”).

Things I find attractive about Judaism are many:
I’ve always been pulled toward the sense of family that they seem to share, even
among the less religious or even secular jews. I don’t see that among Christians
which is sad. I love the idea that the Torah was revealed to all of them/their
ancestors in front of their faces (as opposed to an upper room, a temple
corridor, a mountain cave [Muhammed/Islam, Joseph Smith/LDS]).
I love the view that sin is a very personal matter between God and the sinner to
be worked out between just these two entities. I love the respect they have for
God’s Word and Presence, all among other things.

Well, I don’t know what type of response I’m even expecting, so just reply as
you want and we can discuss from there. I’m just curious what a former Jew would
say to a Catholic looking seriously at Judaism. Or if there are any Jews or former Jews here I could talk with? thanks

The Jews can be vehemently opposed to Christianity, and have concocted various explanations countering Christ as the Messiah. Word manipulation seems pretty popular. The JPS edition of the Torah is rife with grammatical “errors” and “misspellings” such as changing gender and tense in order to rid the reader any thought of the Old Testament prophesizing the coming of Christ. Compare the Psalms of the JPS Torah and any version of the Old Testament. I have bolded the subtle things that prophecise Christ:

NIV Psalm 1:

1 Blessed is the man
who **does not **walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.

2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.

3 **He **is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither.
Whatever he does prospers.

4 Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.

5 Therefore the wicked **will not **stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.

JPS:

1 O the happiness of that one (Note: The Hebrew text says “man,” and is not gender neutral whatsoever.), who **Hath not walked **in the counsel of the wicked. And in the way of sinners **hath not **stood, And in the seat of scorners **hath not **sat;

2 But – in the law of Jehovah is his delight, And in His law he doth meditate by day and by night:

3 And he **hath been **as a tree, Planted by rivulets of water, That giveth its fruit in its season, And its leaf doth not wither, And all that he doth he causeth to prosper.

4 Not so the wicked: But – as chaff that wind driveth away!

5 Therefore the wicked **rise not **in judgment, Nor sinners in the company of the righteous,

6 For Jehovah is knowing the way of the righteous, And the way of the wicked **is **lost!

This is DELIBERATE manipulation of the tense and gender of certain words to eliminate any thought of prophecy. And Psalm 1 was only an example. The entire English translation of the Torah is RIFE with word-play.

The Jews weren’t the “Chosen People” because God chose them to be his blessed people or because they are to be the pious people. They were the “Chosen People” to whom God would deliver his Son.

There are also verses in the Bible that relate to the condemnation of Judaism for its rejection of Christ:

Christ shall be slain, and the people who shall deny Him shall not be His. - Daniel 9: 26

The Gentiles … have attained to justice, even to the justice is of the faith. But Israel … has not come unto the law of justice. Why so? Because they sought it not by faith… For they stumbled at the Stumbling Stone. - Romans 9:30-32

(Here’s also an explicit, not only prophecy, but order)

Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples shall be divided out of thy womb; one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger. - Genesis 25:23

You shall cry out in that day from the face of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you on that day because you desired unto yourselves a king. - I Kings 8:18

 

[Lapell]

Look here:
New Law is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Old Law and Christianity is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Judaism and is not supposed to follow JUDAISM

However you do acknowledge that the New Testament is in continuity with the Old Testament, that the NT completes the OT and that the OT explains the NT, don’t you?
You can’t simply have the whole picture just in the NT nor just in the OT…

 

[Nyarlathotep]

What I would like for Catholicism is to look into the prayer for the departed that are even today in Orthodox Christian Holy Liturgy.Orthodox Church uses Holy Liturgy from around year 380 . In this Holy Liturgy there are prayers for the dead and living that are read in front of GOD and angels. They are very powerful and there are miracles saying 40 such prayers for a dead person can take his soul from Hell. If I would have a wish for Catholic Church would be to re-instantiate prayers for the departed . Obviously Apostle Mark the Evangelist and Apostle James believed these prayers are useful since both their Liturgies contained prayers for the departed. My 2 cents.

Obviously, the Byzantines, who use the St. John Chrysostom / St. Basil the Great Liturgies, do the prayers for the dead (“vichnaya pamyat,” etc), but I’m pretty sure the Romans do too. At funerals we pray for the dead, and we are urged to pray for the poor souls in Purgatory and we can certainly pray for the intercession of those in Heaven, but I don’t know whether or not there is a formal “prayer for the dead” in the Latin Mass or New Order Mass; interesting question – anybody know?

 

[Lapell]

The Jews can be vehemently opposed to Christianity, and have concocted various explanations countering Christ as the Messiah.

I find it very possible. In the Jewish leaders’ mind, there seemed to have been a need to discourage any Jew to become disciples of that Jesus, since they had considered him a blasphemer…