Dare to consider Judaism

[kalt]

Scapular,

The only reason why I asked what faith that evil lil monster was is because when I was more combative as a younger Christian all ever heard was…Catholic this and Catholic that!

We are Catholics Gods only Church!
We are Catholics Keepers of the Faith
We are Catholics We made the bible!
and so on…

So when PJPII went to the Holocaust memorial in 00 the Jewish religious leaders were actually waiting for some type of official apology from Rome in which he said…

“As bishop of Rome and successor of the Apostle Peter, I assure the Jewish people that the Catholic Church, motivated by the Gospel law of truth and love, and by no political considerations, is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any place.”

My first thought was Ok now its ok to use the term Christian. I mean look at the top right hand of everybody’s profile it says “Catholic” Yes and I do know you guys are Christian.

But the Jewish community was looking for an apology from the RCC because of the supposed blind eye they turned on the whole holocaust. I wasn’t there so I don’t know if there was wrong doing.

I just thought that was a nice play on words to Canopy the whole ordeal on us other Christians.

Actually, I think using the word Christian was correct. All Christians follow the Gospel, and so all should have done more.

I find it interesting that non-Catholic Christians jump all over the Catholic Church for not doing more, but say nothing about their own denominations’ failure.

Why do you think that it’s the the Catholic Church that should have done more, but not the Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, and so on to to include every denomination that existed during WWII?

FWIW, the Vatican didn’t turn a blind eye. The public does, though. Did you see the email about Al Gore getting the Nobel prize over the Catholic woman who saved many Jewish children during WWII? The story checked out on Snopes. If Snopes got it right, the world has decided that the contribution of Catholics to save Jews is less Nobel-worthy than making a movie. The rest of the world turned a blind eye to the Jewish suffering then, and they are doing the same thing now. Apparently, making a movie is more peace prize-worthy than saving Jewish children from the gas chambers.

I think people need to look more closely at them and theirs before they jump all over the CC and Catholics.

 

[4EverHis]

Hi all!

I really don’t know where to start, so I’m just going to dive in.
I’m 20 years old, born and raised Catholic in a strong Catholic house that
practices.

My whole life I have followed my beliefs without much question, but until
recently.

I have been blessed to encounter Jews in my life recently over the course of attending college. After talking with one friend
in particular (Benjamin), I got curious/serious about what they actually believe
regarding God and Jesus, and I’ve been researching for a couple months now.

I have to say, from what I have seen so far, the cards are not stacked in Jesus’
favor that he was the Messiah by jewish definition (from what I’ve found).
Doubts are also beginning to surface for me on why/how God would become a man,
why a follower of this man (Paul) would say Gentiles don’t have to follow the
Torah, and why the concept of a Trinity could ever exist (“Hear, Israel…The
Lord is One”).

Things I find attractive about Judaism are many:
I’ve always been pulled toward the sense of family that they seem to share, even
among the less religious or even secular jews. I don’t see that among Christians
which is sad. I love the idea that the Torah was revealed to all of them/their
ancestors in front of their faces (as opposed to an upper room, a temple
corridor, a mountain cave [Muhammed/Islam, Joseph Smith/LDS]).
I love the view that sin is a very personal matter between God and the sinner to
be worked out between just these two entities. I love the respect they have for
God’s Word and Presence, all among other things.

Well, I don’t know what type of response I’m even expecting, so just reply as
you want and we can discuss from there. I’m just curious what a former Jew would
say to a Catholic looking seriously at Judaism. Or if there are any Jews or former Jews here I could talk with? thanks

To be honest, i think it is sad that you are considering leaving Christ
I’ve talked to a Jewish person who became a Catholic. He became a Catholic simply because he discovered Jesus and because he realized how much Jesus loves us. He says he didn’t really feel close to God before, but now it’s much different. Stories like taht show that it’s only through Christ that we can come to the Father…only through Christ can we have a relationship with God, because He bridged the gap between our sinful humanity and His divinity. How else can we, mortal sinful humans, know God, unless He Himself takes on human nature?

the reason the Trinity exists is because God is love. The Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, the Holy Spirit, …that is how God COULD be love even before He made the world. If God was only one person, He could not be love, because He would have no one else to love and to give Himself to (love is self gift) before Creation.

another thing… Jesus fulfilled so many prophesies for the Messiah. THe odds of him fulfilling even a few of them are almost impossible. He is either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord… but He doesn’t speak like a crazy person… He definitely isn’t a liar… that leaves only one option…

God bless

 

[4EverHis]

Also, in the OT, they needed to make sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin… but Jews no longer make sacrifices. Christ fulfilled the Law by being the one perfect sacrifice…the OT was just a symbol of what was to come.

 

[beautiful304]

Hi scapularkid8,

Have you received Confirmation yet? If not, going through RCIA this year would be a great thing to do to get clarity on your doubts and possibly get confirmed .

God bless
beautiful304

 

[AJTheMan]

Please provide a source for this remark. What prominent Catholic argues this?

No problem.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=345705

 

[AJTheMan]

If I may be so blunt, you completely misread history. Judaism is completely remarkable not unremarkable as you aver. Unlike the other religions you allude to, the Jewish people were the first on all of God’s green earth to link monotheism with morality. They invented (or God gave to them) Ethical Monotheism. Neither the Greeks, Egyptians, Hindus, Chinese, Romans ever had something like this. The Egyptians may have founded briefly monotheism during the cult of Akhenaten in 1350 B.C., but the belief of the Egyptians was in a god, Aten, without any moral code which the Jews accepted with their monotheism. I repeat, in history, the Jews are unique in that they are the founders of Ethical Monotheism, and hence their religion is of a different kind not degree from the ancients that surrounded them.

As a Catholic, I believe that Jesus Christ is unique, in that into this Jewish world, God did send, when the time in history was right, his only begotten Son, Jesus, to redeem all of mankind. Christianity brings into the world the message of a God so full of love for all of us that He willed that His Son suffer and be crucified for our sins and, consequently, offer the Gift of Eternal Life and Hope to all who follow Him in word and deed, and that each and every human life, from the poorest and weakest to the strong is loved by God and has a purpose. This is where Christianity is unique.

Unlike Hinduism and Buddhism we believe in a Personal God, and not an impersonal force, god, gods as practiced by the Eastern religions. Unlike Islam, Christianity has a theology of Redemption which Islam does not.

If you would like to learn more of the history of the Jews I suggest you read a work completed by a prominent Roman Catholic historian Paul Johnson, very carefully researched and thought out amazon.com/History-Jews-Paul-M-Johnson/dp/0060915331

It is no use for you to go throwing all religions together without at least noting some of the root differences. God Bless.

I did not intend to offend you or attack your faith. Someone asked me a question, I responded.

Interesting. I never knew that. Maybe I can learn something new today. Would you provide some evidence for the above statement or is it just something you “heard”?

No problem.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=345705

 

[AJTheMan]

The gods of ancient Egypt or Rome didn’t even claim to be the ultimate causes of everything, so it’s a bad analogy.

This is a rather trivial remark. You apparently can’t be bothered actually to examine the different creation stories on their merits. At least you give us no reason to think that you have done so. You simply remark that by virtue of existing all creation stories are equal. Why?

As far as I’m concerned, anyone who says that “Judaism is completely unremarkable” is simply a bad observer/reader of the evidence. I don’t know what else to say, since you provide no arguments for your claim beyond the obvious and trivial fact that all societies have creation stories.

We would also need to look at the different ANE creation stories. All creation stories are not created equal–even all polytheistic ones.

Again, you take refute in speculative and thus irrefutable claims. We simply don’t know what could have happened. But there were reasons why Constantine chose to favor Christianity in the first place. You have to look at what Christianity accomplished in its first three hundred years–and for that matter what it has accomplished since.

Islam is an even worse example, because the Arabs were not a powerful empire until Islam came long.

Do you find Islam’s claims convincing? If you don’t, how is this relevant to whether you find Christianity’s claims convincing? If you don’t find Christian claims convincing in their own right, why is the existence of a rival even relevant?

The existence of rival claims is only relevant if you see significant strengths to both. (For instance, I see strengths to both Catholic and Orthodox claims, and this is a significant reason why I have not embraced either alternative even though I find both of them far more convincing than Protestantism.) But you haven’t articulated what these are. In fact you haven’t articulated much of anything.

A remarkably silly form of speech. The “Christian Right” is a part of American culture, whether you like it or not.

That makes no sense. Gay people still have the free will to sin whether we call their unions marriage or not. No one is taking their free will away. Why stop with gays? Why not call any sexual union anyone chooses to engage in “marriage”? I’m not claiming that gay unions are just the same as some of the really horrid examples we could think of. I’m saying that precisely because they aren’t, you are demeaning gays *and *behaving irrationally by defending gay marriage as the “free will to sin.”

The reason to defend gay marriage is that you believe gay marriage is good. If you don’t, there’s no reason why you should want society to go out of its way to recognize it. (We are not talking about the government preventing gays from forming unions, or even giving them some kind of civil recognition–though your argument is still a bad one in that context, since if taken consistently it would prevent the government from banning anything at all.)

Again, you seem to find the existence of a claim impressive in and of itself. Why?

Edwin

I was merely responding to a question asked of me. I would not like to derail the thread.

To briefly summarize, from my point of view, every creation story is equal in the fact that is has no tangible evidence to back it up. Jews just did what other societies did.

 

[scapularkid8]

I was merely responding to a question asked of me. I would not like to derail the thread.

To briefly summarize, from my point of view, every creation story is equal in the fact that is has no tangible evidence to back it up. Jews just did what other societies did.

Actually one of the reasons that made me even consider Judaism is because it’s clear that these were the first people to connect/respond/interact with a God that existed outside of time/reality and was not subject to human thoughts and desires and wasn’t petty and jealous like the other pagan gods of the time. Even modern scholarship admits that, regardless of Jewish mythology etc., their God was uniquely different from any other idea of gods at the time and continued to be that way even after the Romans had kicked out the Greeks when the Jews had rebuilt their Temple after the exile. This is thousands of years of the Jews worshiping and interacting with a single, unconstrained, all powerful God.

 

[scapularkid8]

Hi scapularkid8,

Have you received Confirmation yet? If not, going through RCIA this year would be a great thing to do to get clarity on your doubts and possibly get confirmed .

God bless
beautiful304

I have. I’m 20 so I’ve been Confirmed now for…about six years.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I did not intend to offend you or attack your faith. Someone asked me a question, I responded.

AJ, you didn’t attack my faith. I can defend it. I was just pointing out that your claims were historically inaccurate as to Judaism being essentially the same as all other surrounding ancient religions, such as the Greek gods or Roman mythology. I pointed out you are wrong. That’s all, and I provided a link to a prominent historian among many who shows so. I am not sure what historical or religious works you are relying upon. I don’t mind posting, because the argument you provided was the standard: “Oh, well, all the same to me” that one often encounters. That’s all. Again, read Paul Johnson, History of the Jews, in my opinion.

AJ, what have you read about Ancient Judaism, books or just blogs?

 

[KyivAndrew]

No problem.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=345705

AJ, I asked for a link to any prominent modern Catholic writer or apologist who has argued that Jews changed their perception of messiah in response to Jesus Christ. All you pointed me to was another thread on this Forum, not an authoritative Catholic work. These threads are an internet forum. Again, please provide a link to A Catholic book or text which argues this, not another thread on this forum Or have you no source. I hope not to upset you but if you make a blanket statement you should have legitimate sources to back it up.

As for Jews changing their perceptions of Messiah, this had more to do with the destruction of the 2nd Temple by the Romans and the Jewish exile than it had anything to do with Jesus Christ. Ghosty already on the other thread explained to you your questions with respect to quotes from Isaiah (written after the destruction of the First Temple, and in Babylonian exile) and your other quotes.

All I wish you to understand is when someone asks for a source, they don’t mean another thread, unless there is actually a link to a source in that thread. You didn’t provide one, so I just assume you don’t have one, that’s all. I’ve pointed you to N.T. Wright’s webpage full of essays on early Christianity and Judaism; you haven’t linked to anything apart from your thoughts with respect to you claiming Jews changed their views on messiah because of Christ according to Catholics. I simply asked for a Catholic book or text that argues this. Standard procedure.

 

[AJTheMan]

AJ, you didn’t attack my faith. I can defend it. I was just pointing out that your claims were historically inaccurate as to Judaism being essentially the same as all other surrounding ancient religions, such as the Greek gods or Roman mythology. I pointed out you are wrong. That’s all, and I provided a link to a prominent historian among many who shows so. I am not sure what historical or religious works you are relying upon. I don’t mind posting, because the argument you provided was the standard: “Oh, well, all the same to me” that one often encounters. That’s all. Again, read Paul Johnson, History of the Jews, in my opinion.

AJ, what have you read about Ancient Judaism, books or just blogs?

Mostly stuff online. I don’t read blogs because they are biased. I know a bit, here and there.

I just haven’t seen a compelling reason as to why I should agree with Jewish mythology.

 

[AJTheMan]

AJ, I asked for a link to any prominent modern Catholic writer or apologist who has argued that Jews changed their perception of messiah in response to Jesus Christ. All you pointed me to was another thread on this Forum, not an authoritative Catholic work. These threads are an internet forum. Again, please provide a link to A Catholic book or text which argues this, not another thread on this forum Or have you no source. I hope not to upset you but if you make a blanket statement you should have legitimate sources to back it up.

As for Jews changing their perceptions of Messiah, this had more to do with the destruction of the 2nd Temple by the Romans and the Jewish exile than it had anything to do with Jesus Christ. Ghosty already on the other thread explained to you on the other thread your questions with respect to quotes from Isaiah (written after the destruction of the First Temple, and in Babylonian exile) and your other quotes.

All I wish you to understand is when someone asks for a source, they don’t mean another thread, unless there is actually a link to a source in that thread. You didn’t provide one, so I just assume you don’t have one, that’s all. I’ve pointed you to N.T. Wright’s webpage full of essays on early Christianity and Judaism; you haven’t linked to anything apart from your thoughts.

I never said that a prominent Catholic said it. Just that a Catholic on these forums had.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I never said that a prominent Catholic said it. Just that a Catholic on these forums had.

O.K.

And please any other posters, O.P., how did this thread suddenly turn into Hitler and being Jewish from the original question. It makes no sense.

 

[scapularkid8]

O.K.

And please any other posters, O.P., how did this thread suddenly turn into Hitler and being Jewish from the original question. It makes no sense.

Hahaha I was about to say something but I didn’t want to be a thread nazi (all puns made by myself are, indeed, on purpose )

 

[KindredSoul]

O.K.

And please any other posters, O.P., how did this thread suddenly turn into Hitler and being Jewish from the original question. It makes no sense.

I too realized this…I took part in that derailment, myself. I do that a lot. I never start the derailing, so far as I know, but I often get drawn in because I hate to leave a misconception or misunderstanding untouched if the error is so glaring as many derailing comments tend to be.

Ahem…let’s get the train back on the tracks.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[josie_L]

Why not consider polytheism ? I think it makes far more sense than the monotheistic religions. Where was this ever-so-wonderful One God when his People were in trouble ? He deserted them - that is the kind of god he is: useless, unreliable, deceitful.​

Gottle of Geer do you have split personalities? You call JPII an anti-Christ though your Catholic, you tell this kid he should consider polytheism when you’re a monotheist, you insult the Judeo-Christian God but claim you’re Christian, am I missing someting here?

 

[FCEGM]

Actually one of the reasons that made me even consider Judaism is because it’s clear that these were the first people to connect/respond/interact with a God that existed outside of time/reality and was not subject to human thoughts and desires and wasn’t petty and jealous like the other pagan gods of the time. Even modern scholarship admits that, regardless of Jewish mythology etc., their God was uniquely different from any other idea of gods at the time and continued to be that way even after the Romans had kicked out the Greeks when the Jews had rebuilt their Temple after the exile. This is thousands of years of the Jews worshiping and interacting with a single, unconstrained, all powerful God.

Yes. And all in preparation for the Incarnation of the Son of God in their midst.

 

[AdrianP]

Look here:
New Law is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Old Law and Christianity is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Judaism and is not supposed to follow JUDAISM

amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdThread=Tx3SL6ITIY9PDCW&displayType=tagsDetail

Matthew 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

This is from a Protestant web site. I don’t have the capacity to take one by one and analyse this but however, as an information it gives you an idea about differences between OLD LAW and NEW LAW.

Mosaic Covenant New Covenant
Came by Moses John 1:17 Came by Christ Heb. 8:6, 9:15
Law of Moses Acts 13:38-39 Law of Christ Gal. 6:2
Law of sin Rom. 7:5-6 Law of righteousness Rom. 9:30-31
Law of the flesh Rom. 7:5-6 Law of the Spirit Rom. 8:2
Not of faith Gal. 3:2 Law of faith Rom. 3:27
Yoke of bondage Gal. 5:1 Law of liberty Jam. 1:25
Ended by Christ Rom. 10:4 Established by Christ Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Law of death II Cor. 3:7 Law of life Gal. 3:11, 6:8
Entangles Gal. 5:1 Makes free John 8:32, 36
A shadow Col. 2:14-17 The reality Heb. 10:1-18
Fulfilled Mat. 5:17-18 Now in force Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Leaves imperfect Heb. 7:19 Makes perfect Heb. 7:19
Glorious II Cor. 3:7 More glorious II Cor. 3:8-10
Powerless to save Heb. 9:9, 10:4 Saves to uttermost Heb. 7:25
Many sacrifices Heb. 9:12-13 One sacrifice for sin Heb. 10:12
Temporary priest Heb. 7:23 Eternal priest Heb. 7:17
Remembers sins Heb. 10:3 Forgets sins Heb. 8:12, 10:17
Yearly atonement Heb. 10:3 Eternal atonement Heb. 10:14
Priests have sin Heb. 5:1-4 Sinless priest Heb. 7:26
Aaronic priesthood >Heb. 7:11 Melchisedec priesthood Heb. 5:5-10, 7:21
Out of Levi Heb 7:11 Out of Judah Heb. 7:14
Animal sacrifices Heb. 9:12 Human sacrifice Heb. 9:14-28
Earthly tabernacle Heb. 9:2 Heavenly tabernacle Heb. 8:2
Imperfect mediator Gal. 3:19 Sinless mediator I Tim. 2:5
No inheritance Rom. 4:13 Eternal inheritance Heb. 9:15
Instituted upon animal blood Heb. 9:16-22 Instituted upon blood of Christ Mat. 26-28
Works wrath Rom. 4:15 Saves from wrath Rom. 5:9
Non-redeeming Heb. 10:4 Redeems Gal. 3:13, Heb. 9:12-15
Non-pleasing Ps. 40:6 Pleasing to God Heb 10:5-18
Abolishment predicted Is. 51:6 Establishment predicted Heb. 8:7
Circumcision Ex. 12:48 No circumcision Rom. 4:9-12
Made to change Heb. 7:12, Gal. 3:25 Made eternal Heb. 13:20
Faulty Heb. 8:7 Perfect James 1:25
Weak Heb. 7:18 Strong Heb. 7:25
Unprofitable Heb. 7:18 Profitable Heb. 7:19,25
Natural program Heb. 9:10-14 Spiritual program II Cor. 3:6, 18
Daily program Heb. 7:27 Finished program Heb. 10:10-18
Infirm high priests Heb. 5:2, 7:28 Perfect high priest Heb. 7:26
Made priests by law Heb. 7:12, 28 Made priests by an oath Heb. 7:21, 28
No salvation Heb. 10:2-4 Eternal salvation Heb. 5:9, 10:10
Perfected nothing Heb. 7:19 Perfects believers Heb. 7:19, 10:14
Earthly priests Heb. 5:1-4 Heavenly priest Heb. 9:24, 10:12
Repeated inability Heb. 10:11 Glorious success Heb. 10:10-18
Many offerings Heb. 9:7 One offering Heb. 10:10-14
Good promises Dt. 28:1-14 Better promises Heb. 8:6
A good covenant Rom 7:12 A better covenant Heb. 7:22, 8:6
Many high priests Heb. 7:23 One high priest Heb. 7:24-28
Typical tabernacle Heb. 9 True tabernacle Heb. 8:2, 9:11
No mercy Heb. 10:28 Complete mercy Heb. 8:12
Handmade things Heb. 9:1-5, 24 Not handmade Heb. 9:23-24
An old way Heb. 8:13 New and living way Heb. 10:19-20
Unavailing ministers Heb. 7:18 Able ministers II Cor. 3:6
Carnal ministry Heb. 9:9-10 Spiritual ministry II Cor. 3:6
Ministration of condemnation II Cor. 3:9 Ministration of righteousness II Cor. 3:9
Glory covered II Cor. 3:13 Glory uncovered II Cor. 3:18
Brings bondage Gal. 4:24-25 Brings liberty II Cor. 3:17
Cannot justify Gal. 2:16 Does justify Acts 13:38-39
Brings a curse Gal. 3:10 Redeems from the curse Gal. 3:13
Live by works Gal 3:10 Live by faith Gal. 3:11
Cannot give life Gal. 3:21 Does give life John 6:63-68
Exposes sin Gal 3:19 Covers sin Rom. 4:1-8
Under law Rom 6:14-15 Under grace Gal. 3:22-25
Done away II Cor. 3:7-14 Not done away II Cor. 3:11
Abolished II Cor. 3:13 Continues glorious II Cor. 3:11
Ministry of death II Cor. 3:7 Reconciliation ministry II Cor. 5:18
For Israel only Dt. 4:7-8, 5:3 For all men Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24

If you want to be part of NEW LAW you can come to Catholic or ORTHODOX CHURCH I think Judaism is following the OLD LAW. I think that Islam and Protestantism may be in between.

What come from new LAW:
HOLY COMMUNION for eternal life.
John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
BAPTISM and the 7 MYSTERIES.

Orthodox Christianity beside most religious doesn’t stop to this life an through the 7 Mysteries can work in the other life.
At Pentecost Apostles received Holy Spirit and gave it to Bishops and to priests to ordination. Bishops could give Holy Spirit to other priests in ordination. By receiving Holy Spirit through ordination the Priests are TRUE priests and they can FORGIVE SINS, they can give Holy Communion for eternal life and such.
Now Luther not being a bishop could not ordain priests so I don’t know what protestants priests can do, Hopefull they can do everything but I don’t know and there si a RISK being protestant .

 

[Contarini]

I was merely responding to a question asked of me. I would not like to derail the thread.

To briefly summarize, from my point of view, every creation story is equal in the fact that is has no tangible evidence to back it up. Jews just did what other societies did.

But they didn’t. They altered the creation story in ways that have had a profound effect on our civilization.

I’m not sure what “evidence” you expect for a creation story other than the fact that there is a universe lying about.

Edwin