dark ages

[Atreyu]

And this is exactly human nature to dismiss the truth when confronted with the truth…the papacy did kill millions during the its reign when the inquisition was still in place (before it was forcibly removed by Napoleon Bonaparte). I being a former catholic was outraged when I heard these things,but when I looked more I found that there was consistency to what you brand as “anti-catholic” to history…on the other hand,the pope plays with words as if it has deep remorse for what it has done and yet the canon laws that are used to kill christians not conforming to catholic practices are in place to punish the if necessary kill them if it has the power

So lets get this straight,by not conforming to the pope,by being a man of another religion and for worshipping God which you think is the right way deserve being burned to the stake and suffer execution or torture for life?It is this kind of thinking that people of other religions shy away from christianity…even ancient Rome was much more lenient compared to the actions of the papacy when it was in power…it isn’t even any wonder why people from europe moved to america to escape the inquisitions done at home,heck I’d rather kill myself than to be forcibly converted to what I don’t believe in…as the saying goes “kill a man you destroy his body,forcibly convert a man and you kill his soul”

And yet the result was the dark ages,people did not regard private property and there was such unhygienic conditions that it is a wonder how people survived during those days,even the empire of Rome during its glory days far surpassed even that of the dark ages…

Sniper your accusations are too numerous and fantastical to respond to. How about taking one issue at a time, and then backing up your accusations with some historical evidence?

 

[PaulDupre]

Three points:

1. According to historian Will Durant, the entire population of Europe during the period between 450 AD and 1250 AD rarely exceeded 12 million people. So logically there could not have been 50,000,000 executions.
2. The Office of the Inquisition never executed anyone. In the very rare cases where punishment, not remedial catechesis, was the result of the inquisition, the offender was handed over to the civil government for sentence. The idea that the papacy or the inquisition or the Church killed millions of people is an anti-Catholic fantasy. Protestants executed more Catholics and people accused of witchcraft during the reformation than were ever executed during the Inquisitions.
3. The doctrine of papal infallibility does not claim that the pope can never make mistakes, or manage the affairs of the Church badly, or commit personal sin. The doctrine of papal infallibility states that the Holy Spirit will prevent the pope from teaching error in matters of faith and morals.

Papal infallibility is like a guardrail on a winding mountain road. The guardrail does not guarantee that you will be a great driver. It does not even guarantee that you will not bang up the car a bit. It only guarantees that you will not drive off the cliff.

God love you,
Paul

 

[Atreyu]

I have never encountered anyone who has actually tried to twist what the papacy did during the dark ages,not only was the bible banned but anyone caught with it without permission from local bishops immediately risked being tortured or burned at the stake by the inquisition

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur. Only bad translations of Bibles were banned. If a person were to be caught in possession of a Bible was at risk of punishment, well that was likely because he stole it considering how valuable Bibles were! Do you have any idea of the amount of effort that went in to produce a copy of the Bible before the printing press? How about backing up your accusations?

Lie,the catholic church burned anyone who tried to translate the bible into the local languages,case in point William Tyndale and the waldensians who translated the bible into he local tongues

It was the Church of England who tried Tyndale, not the Catholic Church. The Waldensians were not persecuted for translating the Bible into vernacular tongues. If that were true, then why did the Catholic Church not persecute the many others that did the same thing? The Venerable Bede, for example?

These are just simple estimates as to how many people were killed by the papacy and not just through the inquisition…one statistician estimated that 50 million people were killed by the papacy starting from the dark ages to the last documented execution of the inquisition in 1859 when a spanish schoolmaster was hanged when he replaced the words “ave maria” to “in Jesus Christ’s name”,also we must not forget that millions died during the wars that the papacy has fought including the st.bartholomews massacre,the crusades both local and outside and the 40 years war…if you add them all up it may reach 50 million,simple math people

Simple math… I think you’re multiplying when you should be adding. How about showing us some evidence of this accusation?

Me being a former catholic absolutely knows what it means-that the pope being a sovereign of God here on earth is absolutely NOT capable of making an error concerning faith and morals and yet if we look at the past popes many sired bastards,some were atheists,even one was satanist and assured people of false salavation by fighting the muslims during the crusades and giving money to the church through the indulgences…hardly the action of a “man of God”

Clearly being an ex-Catholic is not of itself a sufficient criterion for one being a good source of Catholic teaching. You have demonstrated this to be true, making a blunder as big as you did in this paragraph. Explain exactly when a Pope erred on an issue of faith or morals? Just one example will do, don’t just throw out a whole laundry list of half-truths again.

 

[Atreyu]

And this is exactly human nature to dismiss the truth when confronted with the truth…

So we’re supposed to believe your baseless rantings? I want evidence of something before I believe it!

the papacy did kill millions during the its reign when the inquisition was still in place

No, it didn’t.

I being a former catholic was outraged when I heard these things,

Well then you shouldn’t believe everything you hear.

but when I looked more I found that there was consistency to what you brand as “anti-catholic” to history…

Well then show it to us!

it isn’t even any wonder why people from europe moved to america to escape the inquisitions done at home,

That’s a new one.

heck I’d rather kill myself than to be forcibly converted to what I don’t believe in…as the saying goes “kill a man you destroy his body,forcibly convert a man and you kill his soul”

Well clearly you have a poor sense of morality. If you kill yourself, then you would be killing your own soul; the ends never ever ever justify the means! Did the apostles kill themselves rather than be captured, tortured and brutally murdered at the hands of the Romans? No, they held onto their faith; they were great witnesses and became glorious martyrs! And you would have had them kill themselves!

And yet the result was the dark ages,people did not regard private property and there was such unhygienic conditions that it is a wonder how people survived during those days,even the empire of Rome during its glory days far surpassed even that of the dark ages…

No kidding. The dark ages came as a result of numerous barbarian invasions of the civilisation that was Rome. It’s a miracle the Church survived such a horrendous and turbulent period in time in the history of the World.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Oh, phppbbt! I feel cheated. Please. I am a calligrapher and illuminator. I love answering these types of folks. Of course we kept the Bible chained - it was worth big bucks! Does anyone who is SDA have the least idea of how long it took to write out the Old and New Testament by hand (answer: big surprise here - well over a year)? Much less add all those nice decorations (add another year)? Not to mention that it was only the clergy and some of the nobility who could read. But we Catholics kept the Word of God away from the people…right.

Come back Kandy, come back! There is so much you need to know! History, dear, history. Not Catholic propaganda. Nope. History as taught at secular institutions.

 

[Victorious]

Papal infallibility is like a guardrail on a winding mountain road. The guardrail does not guarantee that you will be a great driver. It does not even guarantee that you will not bang up the car a bit. It only guarantees that you will not drive off the cliff.

That’s a great analogy. I’ll have to remember and plagiarize it often.

Incidentally, there were at least partial translations of the Bible in English for centuries before the Reformation, such as the Venerable Bede’s translation of the Gospel of John in the 8th century, and King Alfred the Great’s translations of various Bible passages from the 10th century. And the Catholic Church came out with the Douai version of the Bible in English before King James got his version out.

So there.

 

[PaulDupre]

That’s a great analogy. I’ll have to remember and plagiarize it often.

You’re welcome to it. I have found it very useful

Incidentally, there were at least partial translations of the Bible in English for centuries before the Reformation, such as the Venerable Bede’s translation of the Gospel of John in the 8th century, and King Alfred the Great’s translations of various Bible passages from the 10th century. And the Catholic Church came out with the Douai version of the Bible in English before King James got his version out.

So there.

Yeah, that’s a word we need to get out. The Protestant lies have become de facto truth from so much repeating. People really believe that the Catholic Church was going around ripping bibles from the hands of the faithful. How can people be so stupid?

Sheesh.
Paul

 

[Steadfast_love]

Paul, be nice. Kandy’s not trying to start a fight, she just wants some answers. Not everyone has the benefit of a great education.

Kandy is absolutely right by the way, the goodness of the Catholic Church is at odds with her portrayal in mass media. I just wish that more people would question authority.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Oh, phppbbt! I feel cheated. Please. I am a calligrapher and illuminator. I love answering these types of folks. Of course we kept the Bible chained - it was worth big bucks! Does anyone who is SDA have the least idea of how long it took to write out the Old and New Testament by hand (answer: big surprise here - well over a year)? Much less add all those nice decorations (add another year)? Not to mention that it was only the clergy and some of the nobility who could read. But we Catholics kept the Word of God away from the people…right.

Come back Kandy, come back! There is so much you need to know! History, dear, history. Not Catholic propaganda. Nope. History as taught at secular institutions.

I figured (from Rev. Henry Graham’s 1911 estimate) that in current US dollars, a basic, NON illuminated bible would be worth $16,000–yep, I’d keep it on a chain if I was leaving it out FOR PUBLIC ACCESS!

–Sorry I thought Kandy was JTC influenced. But, BTW, in The Death Cookie, Chick shows the 11th century “bible christian” reading from one of these public access–and there’s the chain, yep the CC was trying to keep Scripture out of the hands of believers…

 

[PaulDupre]

When Protestants talk about bibles chained to pulpits, I like to remind them that in a phone booth, the phone book is chained to the booth. Is that because the evil phone company is trying to keep people from using the phone book?

 

[Sixtus]

killing of 50,000,000 to 100,000,000 "heretics

WOW that is a very high number. I was not aware that anyone was ‘put to death by the Catholic Church’ who actually is committed to the preservation of human life to the extent that any catholic who intentionally procures a murder is automatically excommunicated.

So, tell me when this happened so that I may also ask the Church why?

PS A lot of Governments often in catholic countries claim to be Catholic, but then tend to do their OWN thing.

 

[PaulDupre]

Kandy,
Now that it is firmly established that the SDA church has taught you a large pack of untruths, you must now begin to ask yourself “What other falsehoods have they taught me?”.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[Fidelis]

Paul, be nice. Kandy’s not trying to start a fight, she just wants some answers. Not everyone has the benefit of a great education.

Ahem. I hate to point out the obvious, but it appears kandy, our OP, has left the building.

Sincere question, or another hit and run?

 

[Sixtus]

Ah Paul Dupre, you answer my question. I did not know there source of the info was the SDA.

They are so bent on spreading mistruths about the RCC that anything they say is so far removed from the truth, that just does not warrant a coherent defence.

They like to play ‘the numbers’ game. That the numbers of recent popes add up to the number 666. But their critics have also played the numbers game on them and they too can be made to produce the number 666!

So what are we to believe that they like us, are also the anti-Christ?

No, it is a simple equation that any rudimentary mathematician can play. Any group or community or organisation can [with a little number play] be made to fit the number 666.

I read a very interesting article recently by a non-catholic writer who suggested that any group who claims that another Church [Catholic, Protestant, Authodox] is anti-Christ, are themselves Anti-Christ. Only the anti-Christ, would call someone else anti-Christ as the devil is the father of rumours and lies.

Now that is an interesting theory

 

[Atreyu]

Ahem. I hate to point out the obvious, but it appears kandy, our OP, has left the building.

Sincere question, or another hit and run?

Oh I can’t stand this kind of speculation! It’s barely been 24 hours since her first post. Just because we spend 8 hours a day on this forum doesn’t mean that everyone does!!! Frankly who cares one iota if she was a hit and run? It just doesn’t matter! If she was, then the thread will die and no one loses. Otherwise, she’ll come back to find she’s been accused of dishonesty. That would be a nice welcoming present to the forums, don’t you think?!

 

[Steadfast_love]

12:30 Kandy asks a question.
12:33 Jonfan answers and bids"God bless"
12:34 Kandy thanks him for an prompt explaination that doesn’t contradict doctrine.
[SIGN]So why all the name calling?![/SIGN]

 

[Loginus]

mmmm the golden age for Christianity!

A great time indeed when herectics were killed, jews oppressed and women kept at home!

Damn this secular society forcing us to embrace those of religious difference w/o the greet of violence and making it unacceptable to say women are inferior

Someday us christians will rule the world again and have another golden age in the name of Christ

 

[Kandy]

Sorry that it took so long to reply. I can’t get to the internet very often.

I will admit that I was ignorant. I had the dates of the dark ages wrong. I thought it included the whole period of the reformation.

I know that the Catholic church did not herself kill all of the people, but condoned it. Some of the “heresies” I was thinking of were the ever evil “saved by faith not works” doctrine .

50 million to 100 million was an estimate that I read. I apologize if I got my numbers wrong.

I have never heard of the Jack Chick website.

I know that a lot of SDA’s put a lot of weight on the 666 on the pope’s head (by adding the numbers). I also know that you can do that with many things, and it is not SDA doctrine that that is what marks the Pope as an antichrist. Also, we do not believe that the Catholic church is the antichrist. I would gladly give anyone more info on our beliefs in that area if they ask, but I’m not here to pick a fight, so I won’t get into it.

Thank you all very much for the kind replies and even the not so kind ones. Remember, you are all a reflection of the organization you are representing (i.e. the Catholic Church). Thank you to those of you who stuck up for me when I couldn’t defend myself.

God bless you and have a nice day.

Kandy

 

[Della]

mmmm the golden age for Christianity!

A great time indeed when herectics were killed, jews oppressed and women kept at home!

Damn this secular society forcing us to embrace those of religious difference w/o the greet of violence and making it unacceptable to say women are inferior

Someday us christians will rule the world again and have another golden age in the name of Christ

The only thing inferior I can see here is your grasp of history.

 

[Kandy]

Loginus, What is a Nihilis?