dark ages

[mercygate]

That man has been the source for many a laughs for me and my friends. How I love his ‘creative’ truths

I believe that exposure to Jack Chick has brought as many people into the Catholic Church as it has turned away. Anybody with half a brain cell recognizes that his diatribes are delirious, and I have known Catholic converts who have been prompted to look into the Church more seriously in order to explore what Chick is so ludicrous in attacking.

 

[Kandy]

SDA website that I saw [while innocently visiting ‘catholic’ and ‘Vatican’ stated that ‘the Roman Catholic Church claims the pope IS God on earth’!

It further went on to claim that the pope said that if he was in error then he was still right because he is God and God cannot make a mistake’’!

I wish to go on record as saying THE POPE HAS NEVER CLAIMED TO BE GOD. That is a cruel and slanderous thing to say.

“The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God…

“The Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power, to whom has been intrusted by the omnipotent God direction not only of the earthly but also of the heavenly kingdom…

“The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws…

“The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing sheep.” (Translated from Lucius Ferraris, “Papa II,” Prompta Bibliotheca, Vol. VI, pp. 25- 29).

Please let me know if that is misquoted.
By the way, one of my favorite quotes comes from the Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinal, Vol. 50, Number 22, May 21, 1995. You may have read it.

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The Day of the Lord’ (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.”

I especially love the last sentence.

Thanks all.

Kandy
[/quote]

 

[amills]

]“The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God…

“The Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power, to whom has been intrusted by the omnipotent God direction not only of the earthly but also of the heavenly kingdom…

“The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws…

“The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing sheep.” (Translated from Lucius Ferraris, “Papa II,” Prompta Bibliotheca, Vol. VI, pp. 25- 29).

Kandy - who is Lucius Ferraris and how does he have the authority to determine Catholic Doctrine? What is Prompta Bibliotheca and how did you conclude that it was an official Catholic document? I would suggest that if you want to quote Catholic belief to us that you should get official documents and quote from them. Otherwise, your quotes mean nothing.

Please let me know if that is misquoted.
By the way, one of my favorite quotes comes from the Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinal, Vol. 50, Number 22, May 21, 1995. You may have read it.

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The Day of the Lord’ (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.”

Are you aware that the Apostles are considered by the Catholics to be the first Catholics? Why would SDA not want to follow the Apostles? The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible. Why would the SDA not want to follow Jesus Christ?

Kandy - thanks for posting. I hope you can learn from us and we can learn from you. Again let me emphasis that if you want to know what Catholics believe you should use official documents. Sometimes you can draw incorrect conclusions from other souces.

 

[Kandy]

envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.5/goingthedistance.html

newadvent.org/cathen/06048a.htm

tarlton.law.utexas.edu/rare/dictsweb/r_Ferraris.html

pathlights.com/theselastdays/tracts/tract_22h.htm

The last site will answer both questions
I hope this helps.

 

[Victorious]

I especially love the last sentence.

Thanks all.

Kandy

Not half as much as I love people who spit on me and the things I hold dear with great big smiles on their faces.

So who is “Lucius Ferraris,” and what is “Papa II,” Prompta Bibliotheca, Vol. VI, pp. 25- 29?

 

[Kandy]

quote=Kandy;1653420

The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible.

I have read the Bible and if you don’t mind I would appreciate it if you could reference for me just where (I quote from you) “The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible.” I haven’t seen this myself and if I am to believe this I would like to have to Biblical documentation shown to me please.

Thank you kindly with much appreciation.

P.S. this question is from Jason. I am Kandy’s husband.

 

[Kandy]

I have read the Bible and if you don’t mind I would appreciate it if you could reference for me just where (I quote from you) “The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible.” I haven’t seen this myself and if I am to believe this I would like to have to Biblical documentation shown to me please.

Thank you kindly with much appreciation.

P.S. this question is from Jason. I am Kandy’s husband.

 

[Kandy]

The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible. Why would the SDA not want to follow Jesus Christ?

I have read the Bible and if you don’t mind I would appreciate it if you could reference for me just where (I quote from you) “The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible.” I haven’t seen this myself and if I am to believe this I would like to have to Biblical documentation shown to me please.

Thank you kindly with much appreciation.

P.S. this question is from Jason. I am Kandy’s husband.

 

[Kandy]

The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible. Why would the SDA not want to follow Jesus Christ?

I have read the Bible and if you don’t mind I would appreciate it if you could reference for me just where (I quote from you) “The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible.” I haven’t seen this myself and if I am to believe this I would like to have to Biblical documentation shown to me please.

Thank you kindly with much appreciation.

P.S. this question is from Jason. I am Kandy’s husband.

 

[dosdog]

I have read the Bible and if you don’t mind I would appreciate it if you could reference for me just where (I quote from you) “The first day of the week is the New Sabbath as established by Jesus Christ himself and documented in the bible.” I haven’t seen this myself and if I am to believe this I would like to have to Biblical documentation shown to me please.

Thank you kindly with much appreciation.

P.S. this question is from Jason. I am Kandy’s husband.

Scripture
Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus’ resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday
scripturecatholic.com/sunday_worship.html

 

[Sixtus]

“The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God…

He is not exalted. He is loved for the papa he is.

‘Not mere man’. So what else is he? I am lost on this one!

Nowhere does the Catholic Church claim the Pope to be ‘the vicar of God’. Why has the SDA come up with this title? Is this what the SDA wants to believe?

“The Pope is as it were God on earth. That I must object to, as that is blasphemy!

sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power, to whom has been intrusted by the omnipotent God direction not only of the earthly but also of the heavenly kingdom… The Pope is not a king, he does not have a sovereignty or a kingdom, so he cannot possibly be a King. Actually, he is the servant of the servants of God. Vrey rarely does the Pope speak ‘ex cathedra’. Leaders of some cults allege ‘ex-cathredra’ every week and some every day’!

“The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws… Jn 20: 22 [on a sunday] ‘If you forgive any man’s sins they stand forgiven and if you pronounce them unforgiven, unforgiven they remain’! Some say ‘only God can forgive sins’. Jesus clearly gives this authority to His disciples See also Mat 15:19 ‘I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: what you forbid on earth shall be forbidden in heaven, and what you allow on earth shall be allowed in heaven’. I offer no further proof!

‘Go ye and make disciples of all the nations,baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teach them to observe all that I have commanded you’. What else but infallible could the Church be, that is commissioned by Christ to do this. He qualifies this by adding ‘low I am with you always, to the end of time’ Mat 28:20. Also Jn 2021 ‘as the Father sent me, so am I sending you’. What else could that be but divine authority given to His Church? Divine authority IS infallible.

“The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent [Viceroi] Mat15:18 of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing sheep.” Sounds like Jn 21:16-17(Translated from Lucius Ferraris, “Papa II,” Prompta Bibliotheca, Vol. VI, pp. 25- 29). See reference above. It is YOUR OWN LIPS WHICH PROFESS IT. I do however question your use of the word ‘Vicegerent’ and reference to ‘binding and loosing sheep’ that is not biblical or accurate translation/quotation

Please let me know if that is misquoted.
By the way, one of my favorite quotes comes from the Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinal, Vol. 50, Number 22, May 21, 1995. You may have read it. Never heard of it. Tell me more
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The Day of the Lord’ (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.”

Saturday-Sabbath was of the Old Covenant. Jesus established a ‘New Covenant’. No where in the New Testament does the Lord say that Saturday- Sabbath is binding on Christians. On the contrary, He most often appeared to His apostles on the first day of the week instead of the Sabbath. Jn 20:19

It was actually the Blessed Apostles of the Lord who changed the Saturday-sabbath to observance of Sunday-sabbath. The Church merely followed their lead. Jn 16:13 ‘the Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth’!

The Saturday-Sabbath professes Christ as the anti-christ! Christ claimed to be with His Church until the end of time. He further claimed that death [evil, satan] would never prevail against His Church. Now if what the SDA is saying is true, then the Apostles erred in the first 100 years! That is: during the life time of the Blessed Apostle John and the Disciples of Peter and Paul Clement and Linus [mentioned in the Bible[/COLOR].

I especially love the last sentence. Do not know to what this refers!

All bible quotations from the Protestant Bible ‘New English’, Oxford University Press, representing the Baptist Union, Methodist, Presbyterian, Congregationsal, Society of Friends, National Bible Society.

Pax Christi

«

 

[patrick457]

That’s a great analogy. I’ll have to remember and plagiarize it often.

Incidentally, there were at least partial translations of the Bible in English for centuries before the Reformation, such as the Venerable Bede’s translation of the Gospel of John in the 8th century, and King Alfred the Great’s translations of various Bible passages from the 10th century. And the Catholic Church came out with the Douai version of the Bible in English before King James got his version out.

So there.

Yep. The Rheims NT even influenced the KJV NT.

As for the Bibles being chained,
I’ve heard once that the Vatican Library usually chains its collection of books on benches to prevent them from being stolen.
That doesn’t mean that the Library keeps those books away from people, otherwise they wouldn’t be a library. The same might be true for those Medieval Bibles.

 

[patrick457]

Oh Kandy,
The SDAs made that whole thing up. The SDA story goes something like this:

“The pope wears a tiara that has his title written across the front. That title is “The Vicar of the Son of God”. If you use Hebrew gematria to decode the title, the result is the number 666.”

The facts are this:

“The pope has many titles. “The Vicar of the Son of God” is not one of them. The closest real title of the pope is “The Vicar of Christ”. But that doesn’t add up to 666, so the SDAs changed it to “The Vicar of the Son of God”. It is true that the pope has a tiara, but there is nothing written on it.”

Kandy, I ask you again: If the SDA church has lied to you about this, then what else have they lied to you about? And why do they need to lie in order to hang on to their members? Doesn’t it make you feel bad that they lie to you?

God bless you,
Paul

That’s correct Paul!
Kandy,
In fact, there is not one Papal Tiara, but loads of them. Unfortunately, many of the older ones were looted by Napoleon and his soldiers, thus the oldest surviving one was from the 16th Century.

None of them contains the words ‘Vicarius Filii Dei’ which adds to 666. The one and only time the words were applied to the Pope is not in a tiara but in the spurious document, ‘The Donation of Constantine’.

One of the Papal Tiaras dating from 1877 actually contain writing but the writing was, ‘Christi Vicario-in Terra-Regum’.

Just look at this Wikipedia Articles:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarius_Filii_Dei
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Tiara

 

[juno24]

“The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God…

“The Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power, to whom has been intrusted by the omnipotent God direction not only of the earthly but also of the heavenly kingdom…

“The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws…

“The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing sheep.” (Translated from Lucius Ferraris, “Papa II,” Prompta Bibliotheca, Vol. VI, pp. 25- 29).

Please let me know if that is misquoted.
By the way, one of my favorite quotes comes from the Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinal, Vol. 50, Number 22, May 21, 1995. You may have read it.

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The Day of the Lord’ (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.”

I especially love the last sentence.

Thanks all.

Kandy

If you are going to cut and paste your rhetoric from another website, at least have the courtesy of citing where you copied it from.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God…

Kandy gives us this quote which is purportedly from someone named “John Ferrar”'s “ecclesiastical dictionary.”

So I googled this.

The only John Ferrar that I found was the brother of a Nicholas Ferrar, and John wrote about Nicholas’s life. But both John and Nicholas were Protestants. . .

Further, in all the hits I found (30). . .and I not only used Google but Answer.com, found the same sites. . .

There was never anything actual factual, so to speak, about this ‘dictionary.’ No links to the actual dictionary or anything like that, but plenty of links to SDA sites or to Nicholas Ferrar.

So what gives? If this is a “Catholic” dictionary as is claimed, where is it in the Catholic records? Or is it one of those ‘secret’ books that we have along, kept in those ‘secret’ tunnels between the monasteries and convents, where we stock up on papal tiaras . . .

Now I’m not saying that there haven’t been questionable comments by Catholics about Catholics (heck, look at Father Feeney for example). . .and plenty of non Catholics get their knickers in a twist because of the flowerly language of earlier centuries and because they themselves have ‘narrowed’ definitions of certain words. . .

But for somebody to make such a big deal out of a phrase, and to act as though because it came in a purported ‘dictionary’ that it amounted to dogma and proved that Catholics believed the Pope is divine. . .

well, I’m sorry to say it, but that smacks of malicious deception.

If a group is so desperate to ‘prove’ something that they will deliberately deceive like that. . .well, that just says something doesn’t it?

 

[dosdog]

Kandy gives us this quote which is purportedly from someone named “John Ferrar”'s “ecclesiastical dictionary.”

So I googled this.

The only John Ferrar that I found was the brother of a Nicholas Ferrar, and John wrote about Nicholas’s life. But both John and Nicholas were Protestants. . .

Further, in all the hits I found (30). . .and I not only used Google but Answer.com, found the same sites. . .

There was never anything actual factual, so to speak, about this ‘dictionary.’ No links to the actual dictionary or anything like that, but plenty of links to SDA sites or to Nicholas Ferrar.

So what gives? If this is a “Catholic” dictionary as is claimed, where is it in the Catholic records? Or is it one of those ‘secret’ books that we have along, kept in those ‘secret’ tunnels between the monasteries and convents, where we stock up on papal tiaras . . .

Now I’m not saying that there haven’t been questionable comments by Catholics about Catholics (heck, look at Father Feeney for example). . .and plenty of non Catholics get their knickers in a twist because of the flowerly language of earlier centuries and because they themselves have ‘narrowed’ definitions of certain words. . .

But for somebody to make such a big deal out of a phrase, and to act as though because it came in a purported ‘dictionary’ that it amounted to dogma and proved that Catholics believed the Pope is divine. . .

well, I’m sorry to say it, but that smacks of malicious deception.

If a group is so desperate to ‘prove’ something that they will deliberately deceive like that. . .well, that just says something doesn’t it?

Never heard of this John F guy - but this is what cannon law says

if he is morally bound to take advice and to follow the dictates of prudence, he is not legally obliged to obtain the consent of any other person or persons, or to observe any particular form; his power is limited only by Divine law, natural and positive, dogmatic and moral. Furthermore, he is, so to say, the living law, for he is considered as having all law in the treasury of his heart (“in scrinio pectoris”; Boniface VIII. c. i, “De Constit.” in VI). From the earliest ages the letters of the Roman pontiffs constitute, with the canons of the councils, the principal element of canon law, not only of the Roman Church and its immediate dependencies. but of all Christendom; they are everywhere relied upon and collected, and the ancient canonical compilations contain a large number of these precious “decretals” (decreta, statuta, epistolae decretales, and epistolae synodicae). Later, the pontifical laws are promulgated more usually as constitutions, Apostolic Letters, the latter being classified as Bulls or Briefs, according to their external form, or even as spontaneous acts, “Motu proprio”. Moreover, the legislative and disciplinary power of the pope not being an in communicable privilege, the laws and regulations made in his name and with his approbation possess his authority: in fact, though most of the regulations made by the Congregations of the cardinals and other organs of the Curia are incorporated in the Apostolic Letters, yet the custom exists and is becoming more general for legislation to be made by mere decrees of the Congregations, with the papal approval. These are the “Acts of the Holy See” (Acta Sancte Sedis), and their object or purpose permitting, are real laws (see ROMAN CURIA).
newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm

 

[juno24]

By the way, one of my favorite quotes comes from the Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinal, Vol. 50, Number 22, May 21, 1995. You may have read it.

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The Day of the Lord’ (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.”

I especially love the last sentence.

Thanks all.

Kandy

And of course when searching for the source of this quote, all I could find were more SDA websites, which (by sheer coincidence, I am sure) all have EXACTLY the same quote with the exact same reference, which does not seem to exist anywhere else.

Kandy, since this is such a favorite quote of yours, could you do us the favor of providing the entire text of the article it supposedly came from so we can read it in context?

Thanks.

 

[Zooey]

Thank you. that was a very quick response, and helpful. I read somewhere that catholics and the church leaders were ashamed of that, and that doesn’t work with the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope. I wanted an answer that didn’t contradict doctrines, and I got that

Kandy, I think you really don’t understand what Catholics mean by papal infallibility.
That is a whole other issue, & not related to the question you are asking here…

 

[corvidae]

Kandy,

I am very interested in what you would have to say to my previous post #53.

I just want to know what you would do in the situation.

A lone Raven