Dark Energy

  • Thread starter Thread starter juancpath
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
CoG, you are alien in your strange exaltation! Your inconceivable and unimaginable ideas about cosmology is a disapointment to any rational and sensible minded person like myself and scientists. If your ideas on cosmology are so grand as you claim, please direct me to a peer-reviewed journal where they exist. 🙂
 
As I also pointed out there is a great need for Catholics to be educated in true science. I think you and hecd2 are perfect examples of that need. Stop accepting theories without questioning and don’t let pride or emotion run you life.
I certainly agree that Catholics should be educated in true science, but I don’t agree with your claim about the Big Bang, relativity or quantum mechanics. I don’t disagree from a scientific standpoint because I don’t understand physics beyond the basics (I am a geologist), but because your tone is eerily reminiscent of someone I have debated here and on other threads. That person claims that the principles of stratigraphy (a subset of geology) had been disproven by someone doing a bench-scale flume test. He used a lot of impressive sounding terms and came off as someone with authority. Problem is, he was blowing smoke. It was obvious to me, but it wasn’t to people who had no geology background.

One of the things he liked to do was to question my understanding of geology. I suppose he did that because it helped cast doubt on my attacks on his dubious claims. All part of the smoke screen.

I see you doing that with Alec. Alec does understand this stuff. He has responded (although it was way, way over my head) to your claims and you did just exactly what my former opponent did - claim that he didn’t.

My stance on science topics that I don’t understand is that I go with the mainstream thought. I do that because I understand how hard it is for something to become mainstream, what with every scientist dreaming that one day he/she will be the one to discover that the mainstream explanation is wrong and that they have discovered the true answer. That’s not to say that I think that every mainstream explanation is correct, just that it is the best that we have at this time.

If you have the evidence to disprove dark matter or aspects of the big bang, publish it and convince the scientific community that you are right. Otherwise, you are no different from me in these cases - you have your opinion and I have mine. And that isn’t science.

Peace

Tim
 
Wildleafblower;
CoG, you are alien in your strange exaltation! Your inconceivable and unimaginable ideas about cosmology is a disapointment to any rational and sensible minded person like myself and scientists. If your ideas on cosmology are so grand as you claim, please direct me to a peer-reviewed journal where they exist.
You are not making any sense. How can you be disappointed? What were you expecting that you are disappointed? I do not and have never claimed that the ideas I have are grand. All I have done is state what I see. I am sorry you don’t like what I see. Why are you taking these ideas with so much emotion?

I have stated obvious problems with current theories. I would like nothing better then for someone to explain why space is able to expand on a selected basis without any reason or cause. The answers that say that I am just wrong is no answer. If you have found my ideas wrong just state the error and why it is wrong. I have been willing to discuss with an open mind.

If you need a peer-review to tell you if my ideas are correct then why are you taking it on yourself to decide that my ideas are wrong? Your negative view without knowledge of the subject is far from rational or sensible. Try considering having an open mind.
 
Orogeny;
He used a lot of impressive sounding terms and came off as someone with authority. Problem is, he was blowing smoke.
As you have seen I do not use impressive sounding terms. Everything I state can be understood by an eight-grade education. I also do not claim any authority other then what I have been able to see from the facts. I have tried to give the observations and the reasons for the conclusions based on the observations. I have tried to tie in where any of the ideas connect with other observations and have looked for conflicts with any know observations.

The recognition of conflicts with accepted theories is the reason I even started looking into this area. There was no attempt to create any theories, just a quest for answers. I can not believe the negative response to just a quest for answers.
One of the things he liked to do was to question my understanding of geology. I suppose he did that because it helped cast doubt on my attacks on his dubious claims. All part of the smoke screen.
I did not question anyone’s understanding of their topic. They know their topic very well, it is just that what they know has many problems. I did not and do not question the observations. I have pointed out the obvious problems with dark matter that can not be detected at a local level. I have given other mechanisms for the same observations. All I got back was insults.
I see you doing that with Alec. Alec does understand this stuff. He has responded (although it was way, way over my head) to your claims and you did just exactly what my former opponent did - claim that he didn’t.
Alec has made no response other then insults to any of the ideas presented. I did not say that he did not understand what he has accepted as reality but that he refuses to take the time or effort to understand the basis of his understanding and refuses to discuss the ideas I have presented.

He also has no real understanding of the basics that he has accepted as fact. This is true of all of science. Do you know anyone that understands the basis of time or gravity. Everyone uses what they think they know. This is accepted as fact without considering the conflicts of the understand that they have.
If you have the evidence to disprove dark matter or aspects of the big bang, publish it and convince the scientific community that you are right. Otherwise, you are no different from me in these cases - you have your opinion and I have mine. And that isn’t science.
There is a great deal of difference between you and me. I have an open mind and seek out answers to questions I do no know. I do no let others think for me. There is no question that is beyond the ability of anyone to discover or understand. The discovery takes effort the understanding of all things comes from God. I believe God will give understanding to all that ask. The only limit is if that understanding is of harm to us. This can be seen throughout history. The power of the atom was not given to us until it was needed and we had the ability to use it for more good then evil.
 
What is meant by the phrase “the basis of time or gravity”?
The basis is the mechanism of time. We know that time is dynamic, ever changing. Is the transitory nature of time a movement of time going by us or are we in motion that we recognize as time.

We see time as past, present and future. All things in the universe only exist in the present. Is the present the same over the whole universe? Is there only one now?

Special Relativity makes the mistake of treating time as relative, when in fact the relationships about time in Relativity are about physical limitations. Time does not change with velocity, only all clocking functions change with velocity.

No matter how your clock may change with velocity, you never leave the present. If velocity changed time then whenever you moved, your time would slow down and you would disappear from the present. Since nothing ever leaves the present velocity has no effect on real time.

This is the type of consideration that should be given to the basic concepts. The same type of examination can be made for gravity. This is the type of misunderstanding that is throughout science. None of this is taught in the schools. When the topics are present in school, they are stated as having no questions and presented as unquestioned fact.
 
The recognition of conflicts with accepted theories is the reason I even started looking into this area. There was no attempt to create any theories, just a quest for answers. I can not believe the negative response to just a quest for answers.
Well, you have repeatedly claimed that the current mainstream is wrong. It may be, but if you really think it is, you should make an attempt to correct it in the scientific realm, not just a Catholic forum.
I did not question anyone’s understanding of their topic. They know their topic very well, it is just that what they know has many problems. I did not and do not question the observations. I have pointed out the obvious problems with dark matter that can not be detected at a local level. I have given other mechanisms for the same observations. All I got back was insults.
You need to re-read some of your previous posts. You have made several comments about Alec needing to learn the basics of the subject. That is questioning his understanding, is it not?
Alec has made no response other then insults to any of the ideas presented. I did not say that he did not understand what he has accepted as reality but that he refuses to take the time or effort to understand the basis of his understanding and refuses to discuss the ideas I have presented.
Alec can be quite short with posters, no doubt. He obviously sees flaws in your opinion and, based on your responses, he probably doesn’t see your ideas as worth correcting. I wouldn’t count on Alec not coming back. He doesn’t post on these forums on any regular basis.
He also has no real understanding of the basics that he has accepted as fact. This is true of all of science. Do you know anyone that understands the basis of time or gravity. Everyone uses what they think they know. This is accepted as fact without considering the conflicts of the understand that they have.
Do you have a real understanding of the basics of science? Pray tell, how did you come to this knowledge? If you don’t, it is a bogus argument against Alec.
There is a great deal of difference between you and me. I have an open mind and seek out answers to questions I do no know.
Well, I am sorry you think I am close minded because I don’t agree with you.
I do no let others think for me.
Amazing that you think you are qualified to even make those two statements. Is that part of your true understanding of science that no one else has?

Peace

Tim
 
Some day the Hubble telescope is going to look way out into space and see these two great big eyes looking back at it.😃 😃
 
The basis is the mechanism of time. We know that time is dynamic, ever changing. Is the transitory nature of time a movement of time going by us or are we in motion that we recognize as time.

We see time as past, present and future. All things in the universe only exist in the present. Is the present the same over the whole universe? Is there only one now?

Special Relativity makes the mistake of treating time as relative, when in fact the relationships about time in Relativity are about physical limitations. Time does not change with velocity, only all clocking functions change with velocity.

No matter how your clock may change with velocity, you never leave the present. If velocity changed time then whenever you moved, your time would slow down and you would disappear from the present. Since nothing ever leaves the present velocity has no effect on real time.

This is the type of consideration that should be given to the basic concepts. The same type of examination can be made for gravity. This is the type of misunderstanding that is throughout science. None of this is taught in the schools. When the topics are present in school, they are stated as having no questions and presented as unquestioned fact.
I do not know whether your background includes any ‘science’ CoG, but I like your use of simple language. I used to argue with scientists about the basics of science and pointed out some ‘errors’ (unproven theories) that were included in the basis of their arguments and why the foundation of their stances were faulty but they insist on citing unproven theory upon unproven theories, as though they were facts, in support of their arguments. It always ended with;
  1. write peer reviewed journals
  2. state your qualifications
  3. state the scientifically accepted support for your arguments
    etc…
None of these 3 - things have anything to do with the ‘truth’ of a presented view, but such is the state of affairs today that if you “fulfill” all three, somehow a presented view is ‘acceptable’ due to some invisible weight of authenticity accorded to it by passing the criterias of ‘science knowhow.’

Seems a long time ago now that I wrote an argument that the propagating speed of gravity had greater velocity than lightspeed, using observed data at the time, accepted theories and common sense! The simple conclusion was either it was true, or lightspeed was not constant at its known speed. Basically suggesting that lightspeed was much faster than we think!

Now I see that some theories incorporate a lightspeed of a 200 - 300% increase value than it used to be! I don’t even want to ask how that happened, because all sorts of ‘findings’ and ‘theorized experiments’ will be cited to suggest that “…therefore it is now proven fact!”

Science is shrouded in complex equations and elaborate terminology, but it actually is simple to understand, once you understand it.

Sometimes I just want to scream at these 'know-alls" to stand up and look around once in a while. That humming buzzing noise aren’t microwaves, noises of the universe or dark energy. It’s the flies around the bullkaka you’re lying in!

:cool:
 
I do not know whether your background includes any ‘science’ CoG, but I like your use of simple language. I used to argue with scientists about the basics of science and pointed out some ‘errors’ (unproven theories) that were included in the basis of their arguments and why the foundation of their stances were faulty but they insist on citing unproven theory upon unproven theories, as though they were facts, in support of their arguments.
As opposed to “proven theories”?
It always ended with;
  1. write peer reviewed journals
  2. state your qualifications
  3. state the scientifically accepted support for your arguments
    etc…
Perhaps that is because that is how scientists operate. Anyone can come up with a “theory”. If you want credibility with scientists, you have to show why your “theory” is better than the accepted theory. YOU don’t have to accept that, but that is the case. Open your “theory” to scientific scrutiny and, if it is supportable, you may win some converts. Otherwise, it is only your unsupported opinion.
None of these 3 - things have anything to do with the ‘truth’ of a presented view, but such is the state of affairs today that if you “fulfill” all three, somehow a presented view is ‘acceptable’ due to some invisible weight of authenticity accorded to it by passing the criterias of ‘science knowhow.’
Nope. You miss the reason for those three things. Seems like not too long ago, there was a gentleman who espoused the “theory” that extraterrestrials were responsible for the pyramids and, in fact, were illustrated in early art. Guess how many peer-reviewed publications his “theory” was published in? Want to guess why?
Seems a long time ago now that I wrote an argument that the propagating speed of gravity had greater velocity than lightspeed, using observed data at the time, accepted theories and common sense! The simple conclusion was either it was true, or lightspeed was not constant at its known speed. Basically suggesting that lightspeed was much faster than we think!
So why didn’t you make your argument in the way a scientist would make it? Did you have any data to support this argument? How did the math work out?
Now I see that some theories incorporate a lightspeed of a 200 - 300% increase value than it used to be! I don’t even want to ask how that happened, because all sorts of ‘findings’ and ‘theorized experiments’ will be cited to suggest that “…therefore it is now proven fact!”
You don’t want to see any sources? Why?
Science is shrouded in complex equations and elaborate terminology, but it actually is simple to understand, once you understand it.
Wow, now that is a truly deep statement.:rolleyes: You’re not really Yogi Berra, are you?

Peace

Tim
 
The basis is the mechanism of time. We know that time is dynamic, ever changing. Is the transitory nature of time a movement of time going by us or are we in motion that we recognize as time.

We see time as past, present and future. All things in the universe only exist in the present. Is the present the same over the whole universe? Is there only one now?

Special Relativity makes the mistake of treating time as relative, when in fact the relationships about time in Relativity are about physical limitations. Time does not change with velocity, only all clocking functions change with velocity.

No matter how your clock may change with velocity, you never leave the present. If velocity changed time then whenever you moved, your time would slow down and you would disappear from the present. Since nothing ever leaves the present velocity has no effect on real time.

This is the type of consideration that should be given to the basic concepts. The same type of examination can be made for gravity. This is the type of misunderstanding that is throughout science. None of this is taught in the schools. When the topics are present in school, they are stated as having no questions and presented as unquestioned fact.
I’m trying to understnd, is it science you want to abandon our coherent knowledge in general?

Seriously, you’ve now declared perhaps the most “successful” (in secular scientific terms) idea in ON THE ELECTRODYNAMICS OF MOVING BODIES (Einstein’s paper first intorducing the concepts we now refer to as ‘Special Relativity’ (it is ‘special’, because it only concerns an inertial frame of reference)) a mistake.

Why? Because you seemingly want to reassert a hypothesis of absolute time. Fine, introduce it, apply it to predict experimental outcome or use it to explain previously accumulated experimental data.

In other words, show, in secular scientific terms why your theory serves any purpose other than your vanity.

We need a reasonable criteria as to what should and should not be taught as science in schools, and rather or not you had an epiphany after, say, a late night in the bathroom battling a gnarly 7/11 burrito is not a good one.

I understand fear of science. It often requires us to expand our understanding of God, while there is a natural tendancy to try to keep one’s concept of God very small and managable.

But to try to talk about existing scientific theories in the context of, say, dope usage and Pink Floid albums is just a waste of time. It may sound infinitely insightful, but the only meaningful context for discussion is the framework in which the theories were developed.

Even if you wish to disprove that framework you have to learn the language and the means. Waving arms and talking about lack of spiritual satisfaction (or whatever) just demonstrates fundemental ignorance of the subject at hand.

On the original subject, it seems worth reiterating some clear points that have already been made. Despite the intriguing name, “Dark Matter” is not an inherently complicated theory. It just means that we observe a lot of gravitational effects with no obvious source. This led to speculation that there is matter out in the universe that we cannot, for some reason, ‘see’ - hence the name “dark”. Since it was first proposed, our ‘vision’ has improved and we are starting to get glimpse of the various forms matter takes to account for the observed effects.

Dark Energy is quite different. In simplest terms I would say it is an attempt to explain the observed accellerations in the universe. More technically, it is probably reasonable to describe it as an attempt to explain the Lambda-CDM model of cosmology. The model is very successful in predicting experimental outcomes and measurements, but we are still working on ‘why’ it works.
 
I’m trying to understand, is it science you want to abandon or coherent knowledge in general?
Since CoG said this: “Knowledge is a danger to all of us.”, it could very well be the latter.

For anyone who thinks that I “have no answers and have chosen to disappear”: there comes a point in certain exchanges when it becomes apparent that further dialogue is pointless.

There are tens of thousands of physical scientists throughout the world who work within the scientific method to answer questions about the universe and increase our knowledge. There are thousands of individuals, who think that the professional scientists are incredibly stupid for not having spotted some fundamental flaw that they have spotted, and who peddle their personal hypothesis that is radically different from the mainstream theories.

The difference between these groups is that the professionals root all their hypotheses in what has already been demonstrated, and they speak the same language (rather arcane perhaps to outsiders, but very meaningful and precise to them). In short, all professional scienitists share a common foundation from which they work. On the other hand, the individuals’ hypotheses, which to them is so obvious, is generally shared by few others or none - what is more, every renegade individual has a hypothesis that is totally different and incompatible with all the others.

I have learned over the years that it is impossible to have meaningful dialogue with these people, whose ideas are neither grounded in known physics nor supported empirically. Quite a while ago I wrote this in response to CoG and I meant it:

“Thank you for your answers. Since you speak a different scientific, logical and grammatical language from trained scientists like me, I fear that our dialogue is doomed to mutual incomprehension. We are wasting our time trying to connect… You think that you have much more insight into physics than I do, to the extent that you despair of teaching me fundamental principles of physics as you understand them, which I am, as you think, too dumb to absorb, so I wish you every success in getting your fantastical hypotheses absorbed into the mainstream of physics. We should urgently cancel every research program in every prestigious research institution, because my PhD has, as you think, done me no good. You think I understand nothing, not even college freshman physics, at least as understood by you. Can I suggest that you submit papers to Nature, or Science, or Phys Rev Lett, or App Phys Lett, or J App Phys, or Phys Rev D or Phys Rev E, or some other prestigious physics journal in support of your wonderful incoherent hypothesis. I am sure they would love to hear from you”.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
I have learned over the years that it is impossible to have meaningful dialogue with these people, whose ideas are neither grounded in known physics nor supported empirically. Quite a while ago I wrote this in response to CoG and I meant it:
FWIW, I think that dialog can occur, just not meaningful dialog about science. And, given very fundementally different ways of viewing and thinking about the world, communication is always difficult.

In rereading my post it is harsher than I intended. The burrito epiphany is actually self biographical, I actually selected a thesis topic that way. But the spark did not give the idea legitimacy, subjecting it to scientific norms did.

Similiarly, I was using the analogy of “Dark Side of the Moon” playing in a smokey room to show that we have no criteria to seperate spiritual musings, rather the inspiration is theological or drugs and music.

The point is not that musings do not have value. The point is that you cannot present musing as science if you are unwilling to subject them to the same rigors as what you are dismissing.

Frankly, I can’t make heads or tails of his theories. The complete lack of technical precision, either in the form of terms or math, renders them wholly inaccessible to me. That does not make them ‘wrong’, but it does render them scientifically useless, at least to me.
 
Time does not change with velocity, only all clocking functions change with velocity.

No matter how your clock may change with velocity, you never leave the present.
Why does a clock change with velocity?
 
FWIW, I think that dialog can occur, just not meaningful dialog about science.
Oh - I agree. That is what I meant. He and I could very well have a very meaningful discussion on the importance of flaws in the characters of Shakespeare’s tragic heroes, or the importance of musical themes in the works of Thomas Mann.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Oh - I agree. That is what I meant. He and I could very well have a very meaningful discussion on the importance of flaws in the characters of Shakespeare’s tragic heroes, or the importance of musical themes in the works of Thomas Mann.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Wow. A man of such talents. And such pride.
 
Proud to be proud 🙂

Alec
“To myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on a seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.” - Isaac Newton

Even Newton had some humility. Of course, he wasn’t up to your level of intellect.
 
Even Newton had some humility. Of course, he wasn’t up to your level of intellect.
Newton had false humility, and a streak of dishonesty where intellecual credit was concerned. But his brilliance is still accepted.

But I think you are attacking the wrong party. The last time I checked, hecd wasn’t dismissing the collective work of countless scientists working for generations with big hand gestures and broad claims.

If you truly condemn arrogance and pridefullness, then the same principle applies rather you find the person more distasteful or not.
 
Why does a clock change with velocity?
That is actually a complex question, but you can get a glimpse with a simple answer. Imagine a different kind of clock.

Two mirrors, a fixed distance apart - picture them vertically, not horizontally.

Now, imagine that the clock measures time by bouncing a photon back and forth, like a ping pong ball. Down to the bottom mirror, back up to the top mirror. Each time the photon strikes the top mirror we count one tick.

Now imagine that we are with our clock, hurtling through space at a higher and higher speed. The mirrors are now moving horizontally, farther and farther in relationship to each ‘tick’ on our clock. But the speed of the photon is limited, so as the ship goes faster, the distance (from the perspective of a stationary object in the same frame of reference) that the photon has to travel for each ‘tick’ increases.

Think of it this way. From a side view, the photon appeared to be moving in a line, back and forth. But if we move the ship while we stay stationary, the path the photon takes looks like a series of triangles to us.

Since the photon’s speed is constrained, the clock runs slower at velocity. What Cog appears to be asserting is that time itself is unchanged, only the clock runs slower. But that is not what relativity tells us, and our experimental data appears to support relativity, not a Newtonian concept of absolute time and space.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top