Dark night, a few thoughts

[JRKH]

Secular yes, and preferably having obtained approved by the magisterium. I will definitely research Martin’s book.

Thanks James.

Andy

I might add that this book was recommended to me by our Deacon who has also used to deepen his spiritual life.
The thing it helped me the most on was “cutting to the chase” of living a good life and staying focused on the goal which is to Love Gos with all my heart and to Love neighbor as myself.
I battle a truly evil combination of scrupulosity and sloth alternating between one and the other which can distract me in all sorts of little ways.

Anyway I hope the book helps you as much as it has me.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

puzzleannie:

This was the sense I was getting from the posters here. Now I see clearly that I need to step back and start from square one. Thanks for explaining the problem to me.

All:

I mentioned in my opening post the paragraph of the Human Christ to see if anyone would catch a problem. I thought it profound even.

How do we reconcile Christ’s struggles with the Dark Night of Sense, since we know through NT that he was not immune to passion(ie: fear and anger), when we are told he IS the epitome of attained Spirituality.?

It reconciles if the attainment was temporarily to the Father only prior to Christ rising, otherwise if we say he had always qualified has the model, then his sensual human nature would need to have been perfect also. For everyone else and not Christ, then we need to work on our passions of fear and anger and they set us back on the previous rungs.

I’m not even sure if anger and fear are relevant regardless of legitimacy, but they being passions are. It is the passions that John says need to be purged.

See the problem.?

(Of a sudden there comes a collective shout…“Read the first book, clutz!!!”)

OK,OK I’ll do more reading.

Thanks all for the help.

Andy

It is difficult for us who are still on the “starting block” of our spiritual journey to fully understand what and how the Great saints understand and apply the idea of purging and precisely what needs purged.
For instance, take fear. Fear can be a good and wholesome thing that prevents one from getting killed. However, if that fear is not properly understood and controlled, we may fear bodily death more than eternal death. This could lead to a denial of God in order to save our body. Properly ordered fear, that is Fear of God, teaches us that our corporeal life is nothing compared to that which God has prepared for those who Love Him.

You will begin to see this as you read more.

My reading of the book fulfillment of all Desire, led me to reading St Catherine of Sienna’s dialogues. Boy Those take some time. But I am learning so much.

Peace
James

 

[TOP]

I think Inlight answered this very nicely.

The one thing I would add is this: St. John purposely didn’t set out to analyze Christ by any sort of spiritual definitions or criteria for He is obviously beyond all that. No, St. John wrote from the point of view of a profound seeker of Christ speaking, literally, from his personal experience. He speaks as the bride in “Song of Songs” in perpetual longing for the bridegroom (Christ). In fact “Song of Songs” is the model he used for one of his other masterpieces . . . “Spiritual Canticle.” And all his trials and tribulations as bride seeking the bridegroom are now what we know of as the nights. The majesty of his works being that his personal experience has application to all . . . hence the reason he is a Doctor of the Church.

Secondly, St. John does speak of Christ in his formulations in a couple of key areas. The sense of abandonment on the Cross as the epitome of the passive night of spirit experience being one. I can’t recall where at the moment he has this discussion . . . somewhere in Book 2 of “The Ascent,” though.

Additionally, the centrality of Christ is the topic for an entire chapter on the reasons why extraordinary communications (visions, locutions etc) were licit and necessary in Old Testament times . . . but are not now. While this discussion is a bit of topic, you can read about it here if you like:

www.catholictreasury.info/books/ascent/asc38.php

Dave

Hi Dave. As you know, I’m a pretty simple person and don’t like to get to involved in the mystical languages surrounding the dark night. What little I have read by St. John OTC doesn’t seem as complex as some make it. Maybe I’m a shallow thinker, but I’m content with that at times. I have this picture framed on my wall and it is enough for me to just glance at it and see what the dark night is. Maybe I’m off, but I no longer feel alone as I have in my darkest hours. I don’t think, in faith, that it could ever be like that again. I can’t stage myself, but after experiencing a consolation beyond words, how is it possible to feel abandoned? All these stages and the order of them just seem to confuse me and makes relating difficult. I very much feel that I am on a walk with the Lord in a way He has custom tailored to save my soul. It seems at times He has checked “other” on my spiritual path. Here’s the picture.

 

[DBT]

Hi Dave. As you know, I’m a pretty simple person and don’t like to get to involved in the mystical languages surrounding the dark night. What little I have read by St. John OTC doesn’t seem as complex as some make it. Maybe I’m a shallow thinker, but I’m content with that at times . . .

. . . All these stages and the order of them just seem to confuse me and makes relating difficult. I very much feel that I am on a walk with the Lord in a way He has custom tailored to save my soul. It seems at times He has checked “other” on my spiritual path.

Hi Tim -

You’re not a shallow thinker and, yes, all this isn’t as complex as it’s sometimes made out to be. The reality is the more mystical our outlook becomes - the more simple everything gets. And really it can all be reduced down to a single word . . . Love . . . in all it’s infinite colors and hues. That’s all the mystical writers are doing anyway . . . just expressing the depth of love in their hearts that comes from a place beyond what human language can even attempt to describe. But they do it anyway . . . compelled by the Holy Spirit . . . in the hopes of *bringing even just one soul *to an understanding and participation in this indescribable love that is the basis and foundation of everything.

And, to your point, experience is what makes it simple . . . and you’ve got plenty of that! Even if it doesn’t necessarily fit the “playbook.”

Regarding the “playbook” I think Bailey2 said it quite well . . .

Bailey2:

We do not need to know where we are along the path. We only need to live according to the gospel message of love as best we can and pray as best we can (our part). God does the rest. Descriptive words are interesting but they are just maps, not the territory lived.

So these spiritual stages and prayer states that are so much a part of St. John’s and St. Teresa’s teachings are just that . . . road maps to show us to the “territory” in which we are meant to live . . . union with God in likeness through love.

As such, we should view these teachings as valuable guide posts along the way. They reveal what might lie in store for us down the road (God willing) . . . and they show us how to avoid the numerous pot holes lying in wait to give us a flat tire. So we should never underestimate their usefulness. St. Teresa herself said, in defense of this very issue, something along these lines: “who in their right mind would embark upon a journey without a map?”

That having been said, though, we should never fall into the trap of using these maps for indepth self analysis . . . for theological speculation and introspection is perhaps the most sinister and seductive trap the evil one has for pulling us out of recollection . . . our ongoing, interior conversation with the Indwelling Trinity.

To show what I mean, there comes a point in time when it becomes pretty simple to spot the obvious mental thoughts that enter our mind, demand our attention and pull us away from His presence: snipets of conversations we had with people, the incessent “to-do lists” that pop into our minds, silly daydreams, harmful fantasies, old grudges, memories of all kinds and so on. There comes a time in this that we can simply laugh at ourselves and swat these unwanted intruders away like the little flies they are and return to our conversation with God.

But self-analysis is another thing entirely and it can become a real prayer killer. Soon we might find ourselves no longer “talking to God” but “talking to ourselves about God.” Dialogue with God becomes monologue with self . . . and we don’t even feel guilty because it all sounds so good. And the evil one has gained his victory.

So we should be onguard not to spend to much time (a little is OK) on things like “what mansion am I in?” Otherwise, we’ll find ourselves becoming like our own Joe Buck calling play-by-play in the mystical football game of our mind . . . “ah, prayer of recollection . . . great! ooh, look out now, here comes the prayer of quiet . . . no field goals for me baby; it’s touchdown or nothing! And heeerrrreeee it comes . . . the prayer of union! Touchdown with Father, Son and Holy Spirit!!”

Bad analogy, I know, but hopefully it gets the point across how stupid we can become while thinking we’re so smart.

I have this picture framed on my wall and it is enough for me to just glance at it and see what the dark night is.

Wonderful picture and thanks for sharing!

St. Teresa was a great believer in visual aids like this and I need do no more than quote Bailey2 again on what to do with it:

“The important thing is not to think much but to love much and so do that which best stirs you to love.” Teresa Avila

My best to you as always,
Dave

 

[TOP]

Hey Dave and everyone, That is an interesting explanation of one of the traps the enemy use’s. There is no limit to the depth and effort the enemy takes to twist a good thing. Even distractions with things of this world. After the Lord saved my life and chastised me in His loving mercy, I tried to rid my life of all distractions. I threw away my cd collection, bad books, anything that was questionable in intention. I withdrawed to a life close to being a hermit and read, trying to figure out how was it I experienced God when I believed in the Son. Why couldn’t I recognize the members of the Holy Trinity individualy and how was it made possible the Lord could effect me so. St. Paul helped as I read the letters to the Romans and Hebrews concerning our adoption to the Father through the Son and that is when I first felt the communion of the Saints. The great teacher, the Paraclete who inspired Paul and works through the Saints is still alive now as back then. It seems the Holy Spirit reveals as needed and there is no limit to the infinite Word. I have noticed this with the writings of the Saints as well. I’m not saying anything you all don’t already know, but it took me along time to learn this on my own. I think these conversations in the spiritual subforum are very helpful in finding answers and at times members are inspired by the Spirit through their good intentions. It’s a wonderful thing to witness and is one of the things that brought me out of my self made seclusion. I know I’m rambling and writing as it comes to mind, but now I just want to say thanks to you folks with good intentions who through the Holy Spirit teaches us. Tim

 

[InLight247]

Originally by TOP
I very much feel that I am on a walk with the Lord in a way He has custom tailored to save my soul. It seems at times He has checked “other” on my spiritual path.

Tim, thanks for sharing. It is good to know you are doing well.

God created each of us uniquely. He also leads each of us on in a special way. St. John’s teaching was based on his own experiences. While the road map laid by the Saints may be the path for many, God certainly modifies the path and checks the category of “other” as he will.

Originally by BT
we should view these teachings as valuable guide posts along the way.

It is definitely necessary to know what may be expected down the road as well as to confirm our own directions. Before reading St. Teresa and St. John, I had no clue about contemplation or dark night. When I first read Teresa’s mansions, I could identify with many of her descriptions. The Saint’s teaching immediately lifted up my spirit and took away my uncertainty. I used to wonder if the way I attached to Jesus day and night was abnormal. It was thrilling to find out that not only I was not abnormal, but I was on the right track. I was so excited and had hard time to fall into sleep.

Dark night was a little harder to relate. St. John takes time to digest. Even with many highlights on my book, comments on the margins, and with various discussions on the spirituality forum, I was still puzzled. But Dave’s recent post cleared thing up for me.

Originally by DBT
The Purgative Way
Active Night of Sense: Book 1 of “The Ascent” which describes all our sensory appetities and how they become inordinate and how we choose to enter this night through self-denial and mortification. I think this book would be most helpful for addressing the issues in your OP.

Passive Night of Sense: Book 1 of “Dark Night” which describes the various imperfections of beginners (note how lust is treated in a spiritual manner rather than sensual), the three signs depicting the onset of contemplation (which is the most important aspect of this night) and how we are to cooperate with His contemplative work and so on. This night marks the passage to the illuminative way.

The Illuminative Way
Active Night of Spirit: Book 2 of “The Ascent” describes how our intellect is purified of imperfections through OUR response to HIS contemplative gifts . . . both natural and supernatural. This book is marked by St. John’s treatment of extraordinary gifts such as visions, locutions, revelations and so on. Book 3 of “The Ascent” shows how our memory and will are purified through OUR response to HIS contemplative gifts through control of the hold our thoughts, opinions, imagination, feelings and emotions have over us. The practical aspect of this is praying without ceasing . . . sometimes called the Practice of the Presence of God.

Passive Night of Spirit: Book 2 of “The Dark Night” . . . this is St. John’s masterpiece, aka the Dark Night of the Soul when the soul brought to contemplative life is tried in very profound ways by the removal of all consolation and/or sense of God’s presence and tormented by the “gift” of self-knowledge . . . our wrechedness (even when profoundly holy) in relationship to God. This book also wonderfully describes the degrees of love; growth in which is the entire work and purpose of contemplation. This night marks the transition from the illuminative way to the unitive way.

I no longer feel puzzled, at least for a while.

What I want to say is there is definite value of discussion. It is especially helpful when someone knows the material and shares the insight in a well organized way. Thanks.

 

[JRKH]

Just a quick comment on DBT point in post #24:

DBT said:
The reality is the more mystical our outlook becomes - the more simple everything gets. And really it can all be reduced down to a single word . . . Love . . . in all it’s infinite colors and hues. That’s all the mystical writers are doing anyway . . . just expressing the depth of love in their hearts that comes from a place beyond what human language can even attempt to describe.

This is so right, but the problem for most people, myself included, is universally Human propensity for “What-iffing”. What-iffing takes many forms. But boils down to people always looking for an out or some sort of limit.
Jesus says Forgive your enemies and someone says - “Yea but what if…”
The Church says do not abort - and someone says - “yea but what if…”
Jesus says to Love your neighbor, and right away someone says - Who is my neighbor? This too is a form of what-iffing.

Jesus gave us one command - That we Love one another.
He told us what commands the entire Law was based on. The two great commands of Love. The whole thing is so simple and yet so difficult.

As for human language describing these things, you are absolutely right. I have been reading the “Dialogues of St Catherine” and the shear amount of words needed to try and clearly explain something simple, is tremendous. It does make for slow going, but also for great clarity. Of course then I stillhave a heck of a time explaining it to anyone else.

By the way to everyone - Good Thread.

Peace
James

 

[AndyF]

Properly ordered fear, that is Fear of God, teaches us that our corporeal life is nothing compared to that which God has prepared for those who Love Him.

And what does he say about the vast number who strive to be within the law through fear of God, and through imperfect confessions are able to obtain absolution, and are therefore through later purgation hopeful in becoming members of the elect.? It is important to remember that this state is divinely approved for salvation, albeit not the ideal, and some may never go beyond this stage. The point is all this plays out during this exile or time segment, and so does spiritual exercises.

There would seem to be some discriminating reasoning involved if these exercises don’t involve them, a catch 22 of sorts, or are they discreet candidates in one of his phases that I miss in my reading. Just wondering if there is any mention of these cases in any of his books implied or otherwise.

Andy

 

[baltobetsy]

To Dave (DBT) -

Would you do us all a favor and start a discussion of the basics of prayer for beginners and also perhaps to discuss, “What is Love?”

There must be others who find themselves standing beside the path through the purgative, illuminative and unitive ways, unsure of how to step onto it, hesitating as one does before boarding an escalator.

Since Love is the be-all and end-all, it would be helpful to see how this plays out in one’s secular life, as well as in prayer.

Thank you so much for your wonderfully clear explanations in this thread and others.

Betsy

 

[JRKH]

And what does he say about the vast number who strive to be within the law through fear of God, and through imperfect confessions are able to obtain absolution, and are therefore through later purgation hopeful in becoming members of the elect.? It is important to remember that this state is divinely approved for salvation, albeit not the ideal, and some may never go beyond this stage. The point is all this plays out during this exile or time segment, and so does spiritual exercises.

There would seem to be some discriminating reasoning involved if these exercises don’t involve them, a catch 22 of sorts, or are they discreet candidates in one of his phases that I miss in my reading. Just wondering if there is any mention of these cases in any of his books implied or otherwise.

Andy

I am not sure the “he” you are refering to, but to your question about imperfection, so long as one remains on the correct road with thier eye upon the goal of unitive Love with Our Savior, then one can have assurance of salvation.
Yes many will strive and never fully conquer their natural appitites, others may overcome the Dark night of the senses, but stall in opening themselves to God for full illumination.
In any of these things the crucual piece is to remain focused on the goal and to continue striving, even during the dry periods, in prayer and works of charity.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[DBT]

To Dave (DBT) -

Would you do us all a favor and start a discussion of the basics of prayer for beginners and also perhaps to discuss, “What is Love?”

There must be others who find themselves standing beside the path through the purgative, illuminative and unitive ways, unsure of how to step onto it, hesitating as one does before boarding an escalator.

Since Love is the be-all and end-all, it would be helpful to see how this plays out in one’s secular life, as well as in prayer.

Thank you so much for your wonderfully clear explanations in this thread and others.

Betsy

Hi Betsy -

Well that’s quite a tall order What is love? To me it’s to live perpetually in His presence.

With that in mind, I think the best thing I could do is point readers to my namesake in Carmel . . . Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection. If ever there was a “shortcut” in the spiritual life . . . his way is it. In fact, he said so himself . . . referring time and time again to the Practice of the Presence of God as the shortest, truest and safest path to union with God in love.

For those not familiar, Brother Lawrence is sometimes described as St. Therese of Liseaux’s “spiritual big brother.” He lived and worked in a Carmel in France roughly 100 years or so after the time of St. Teresa of Jesus (Avila) and St. John of the Cross. He was familiar with their teachings and knew it intimately in his heart (through experience) . . . if not so much in his mind. In fact he proclaimed the theology of it all to be rather confusing which no doubt will be a source of consolation to readers following along.

Rather than trying to “figure it all out,” he resolved another path for himself: to spend his entire life in God’s presence, speaking to Him in his heart in all he did and recalling his mind at the first moment he noticed he strayed. Though Brother Lawrence lived in a monastery . . . his “way” is applicable to everyone no matter what one’s state in life.

Now, here’s what I mean by “shortcut.”

When we resolve to Practice the Presence of God the way Brother Lawrence encouraged all to do we will find ourselves immediately thrust into all the deep theology of St. John of the Cross . . . but we’ll find we’ll never have to think about it that much. It all just sort of “happens.”

Through the simple act of striving to Practice the Presence of God we will find ourselves placed in the midst of the active night of sense (Purgative Way). We will find that by being ever mindful of God we will almost naturally become conscious of doing our best not to offend Him. Through simple shame (at first) and love (as we mature) we will moderate our excesses of sense (seeing, hearing, tasting etc) and begin to practice “detachment” from those things we now see as harmful attachments. We practice self-denial of that which we cling to. This is the whole point of the active night of sense.

And through the simple act of striving to Practice the Presence of God we do the most important thing we can to find ourselves placed by God in the midst of the passive night of sense (entrance to Illuminative Way). The more we speak to God in the silence of our heart the more our hearts will become inflamed with love . . . whether we “feel” it in a joyful/consoling way or dry and arid. Prayer of the Heart in this matter, by definition, “fills” us with his very presence so that our cup is continually full, in a manner of speaking. And when we are full in this way, we “might” find that when we sit down for our formal times of prayer we really don’t have to do much. After all what more really needs to be said if we’re always talking to Him?

So a quiet stillness comes over us very naturally . . . the Prayer of Heart throughout our daily activity gives way to the Prayer of Simplicity at our formal prayer when He begins to speak (in silence) and where additional words from our end have little or no value. We find ourselves full, peaceful and satisfied . . . content to simply “be” in His presence. These are the “I look at Him and He looks at me times” that lie just this side of infused contemplation.

Here St. John’s “three signs” will be most useful as are St. Teresa wonderful descriptions of the onset of recollection in “The Way of Perfection” (Chapters 28-31) . . . must reading for those wanting to know “how” contemplation comes upon us, how to “feel it” when it happens – and how to not stifle His action in an attempt to “do” something with our prayer.

Note: I firmly believe that the major reason souls aren’t brought to infused contemplation is because they scarcely think of Him throughout the day let alone talk to Him continuously . . . even though they might otherwise be leading very holy and pious lives. Those, on the other hand, who are faithful to the Practice of the Presence of God will no doubt - at some point and time - come to know this stillness I talk about. God is faithful and very giving to those who seek Him in this way.

Lastly, through the simple act of striving to Practice the Presence of God we WILL find ourselves firmly placed in the active night of spirit. We will become profoundly aware of all the thoughts, feelings and emotions that continually enter our mind and pull us away from His presence. This constant intrusion makes this work very hard . . . a true night. So determination and perseverance is very much needed. We might spend years in the hard work of this night striving to overcome the seductive pull of thoughts before it becomes second nature. And when that happens, imo, it’s one of the sure signs the soul can begin to consider it might now be in the Unitive Way.

And it’s from here (the Unitive Way) that we find Brother Lawrence speaking to us. For those interested in getting to know him . . . please go here:
www.catholictreasury.info/books/presence_of_God/

Hope this helps and all my best,
Dave (aka Lawrence of the Blessed Sacrament)

 

[DBT]

In hindsight, I don’t know if this last post was helpful or not . . . but it’s the best I can do to show how one can plunge head first into the teachings of the Saints. One of the key points for me . . . an epiphany really . . . was when I decided it was no longer good enough to be a silent observer simply reading about the experiences of the Saints . . . I wanted to live it as they did. And why not? What they show is a path open for all of us . . . if we simply put the effort in to try.

And for me Brother Lawrence showed the quickest and easiest way through all the deep teachings of the Carmelite saints . . . he’s like a knife that easily cuts through a melting stick of butter . . . if you know what I mean.

So while I might not be able to explain the “how-to’s” very well . . . he obviously can. So I hope some readers take the time to get to know him. Open and committed hearts won’t be disappointed

What I can say is this: perseverence in the Practice of the Presence of God as Brother Lawrence shows opens up the pathway to the mystical understanding of the Indwelling Trinity that St. John of the Cross so wonderfully describes. For it is due to Brother Lawrence that I can say . . . just as St. John of the Cross does:
Living Flame of Love:

O living flame of love
that tenderly wounds my soul
in its deepest center!
Since now you are not oppressive,
now consummate! if it be your will:
tear through the veil of this sweet encounter!

How gently and lovingly
you wake in my heart,
where in secret you dwell alone;
and in your sweet breathing,
filled with good and glory,
how tenderly you swell my heart with love

Dave

 

[baltobetsy]

Thank you, Dave, so very much. Your posts are always insightful, useful and inspiring.

Betsy

 

[DBT]

One other thing that came to mind that might help some in figuring out how all the “puzzle pieces” of prayer stages and states might come together in our lives.

When we Practice the Presence of God we are making a way prayer theologians call active recollection . . . because “we” (aided by God’s grace) are making the conscious effort to do so. Through perseverence in thick or thin we will, without a doubt, come face to face with the active night of sense and active night of spirit. As such, we will be brought to those elements of the Purgative Way and Illuminative Way that are necessary for us ultimately to be brought to the Unitive Way. This is the hope Brother Lawrence’s way puts before us. For ALL can be brought to transforming union with God . . . regardless of whether the passive aspects ever come our way. Thus I call the Practice of the Presence of God an “everyman’s mysticism.”

Now, some souls who Practice the Presence of God might be brought to those “I look at Him and He looks at me moments” of silence and stillness I previously described. When this happens we are just “this side” of what St. Teresa wonderfully describes as passive recollection. When we learn to recognize the signs of it’s onset and how to cooperate with His gift, this prayer might deepen into partial infused contemplation called the prayer of quiet or even the “pure contemplation” of the prayer of union. The trials and tribulations of learning to “go with the flow” in all of this is what St. John of the Cross refers to the passive night of sense. And lets say the soul is fortunate enough to learn to be docile to the Holy Spirit, recognize His coming and yield to His initiative . . . then a “habit” of contemplation might form in the soul where this way of prayer becomes fairly common, even regular . . . until, as St. John says, some souls might even come to possess it “at will.” In my opinion, then, those souls brought to *at least some measure *of “habit” of contemplaton will, without a doubt, be brought to the trials of the passive night of spirit. From here, the Unitive Way beckons.

I guess the point I’m trying to make is this: both ways I describe are equally valid and equally capable of leading souls to the objective . . . union with God in love. One way is not better than the other . . . but the Practice of the Presence of God lies at the heart of both.

Hope that helps,
Dave

 

[DBT]

Ok, seems I can’t leave well enough alone

Since it was (rightly) said earlier in this thread that all this terminology makes things harder than it really is, I thought I’d take a stab at describing in a (hopefully) more common sense way what types of things are going on in these active nights that the Practice of the Presence of God thrusts us into:

Active Night of Sense
First and foremost this has to do with absolutely avoiding mortal sin, guarding ourselves against even the opportunity for venial sin and beginning to learn how to stamp out/supress imperfections when we come to notice them. All of this is closely wrapped up in the seven capital sins: pride, greed, lust, anger, gluttony, envy and sloth . . . and how we are to combat these vices with the corresponding virtue. In this night, imperfection in our application of virtue is common; namely being “transactional” in our approach: doing something good in hopes of getting something in return. Additional key learning is to discover the “appetites” we’re most prone to (our predominant fault) and how we use it to excess . . . as a want rather than a need.

We learn to guard the “exterior” entranceway to our soul of all that is immorderate: what we see, hear, feel, taste, touch and so on.

Active Night of Spirit
This pertains to guarding against all that is immoderate in the “interior” entranceways to our soul:

Memory - This is the “art” of learning to live entirely in the present moment. It is turning off the background noise that seems to continually run through the back of our minds (day dreams, snippets of conversations, fantasies, to-do lists, what-if’ing etc) and curbing the harmful effects of an over active imagination (distorting reality, making mountains out of a mole hill, leaping to rash judgements). The profound harm these “movies in our mind” cause us is a forgetfulness of God. . . whom we must learn to ceaselessly remember. In short, we do this by stopping the incessent talking to ourselves in our mind (monologue) by turning over our cares and concerns to God through the simple act of talking to Him interiorly (dialogue).

Intellect - The big killer here is idle curiosity in all manner of natural knowledge (people, places, things etc) that draws us back to ourselves and away from God. All the “useless knowledge” we constantly come into contact with leads to vanity, wasting time, idle chit-chat and stubbornly clinging to our own opinions. The result is a profound forgetfulness of God.

Will - Here the big culprit is self-love . . .egoism. Whereas purification of the memory is mostly concerned with the thoughts that enter our mind; the will is concerned with regulating our “passions” . . . namely feelings: our joys, our hopes, our fears, our sorrows. The key thing to learn to bring our will into the present moment is to continually raise our mind and heart to God at the “first movement” of an emotion. In other words, don’t dwell on a particular joy, hope, fear or sorrow and just leave it there.

I hope this helps demonstrate that these concepts aren’t as foreign as we sometimes make them out to be.

Dave

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Well done Dave. Your posts are very insightful…

 

[InLight247]

Dave, since you are mentioning the active night of spirit, and the purification of will, allow me to bring back our conversation in another thread that has very good explanation of yours in this area. It may help those who did not read it before.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=151279&page=5

Originally by InLight247
Desires of one’s own heart vs. purification of will…

While the purification of will is necessary for a closer union, the desires of our own hearts can never be eliminated as long as we remain human beings.

God did not create anyone to be a dummy or a robot. Actually God gives us free will and He likes our individuality. Any normal human being will have his own desires. The Bible says to delight ourselves in the Lord and He will give us the desires of our heart.

Then is there a contradiction or not? I have to think not; Our desires are 100% legitimate. The purification of will means to put His will before ours. It does not mean to quench our own desires and become a person of no will.

Your thoughts?

Originally by DBT
Inlight, you raise some very good issues here. One of the things we often talk about in Carmelite community is how easy it can be to take St. John of the Cross to extremes. Balance is everything . . . like riding a bike. Lean to far to the left . . . you fall down. Lean to far to the right . . . you also fall down.

St. John himself recognizes this and adds all sorts of qualifiers to his statements to make sure readers understand his intent. For example, through purification we do not “un-be” or become a “no-man” but, in the tradition of St. Paul, we become a “new-man.” St. John even goes so far to teach how we become divinized . . . “God by participation.”

So, as you say, we do not quench our desires . . . we simply turn them over to Him by allowing Him to participate in them. Union is where this all leads . . . His will is ours . . . our will is His. And, as mentioned in an earlier post, the will relates to the theological virtue of Love. So union in this faculty will center around the purity of the desires of our Heart.

And what are the hindrances to that union? When St. John talks about the purification of the will, he’s talking about the things God does (passive) and what we in turn do (active) to remove all that is “disordered” in the feelings and emotions upon which our desires and loves are based . . . disordered simply meaning the absence of God in what we are thinking, feeling and experiencing.

So to bring this all back home, I think St. John is really saying something like this: It OK and normal to experience all the ups and downs of emotion - specifically joy, hope, fear, sorrow in his teaching - but don’t just leave it there! Our hearts should always be raised to God from the emotion itself . . . to elevate the lesser to the greater. If we’re experiencing something joyful, then great! . . . praise Him! If something sorrowful is weighing us down don’t just wallow in it . . . ask Him for help! He wants relationship – to be invited to participate in everything . . . all the minutia of our very lives

The sooner we learn to take the focus off the emotion we’re thinking about and raise it to God and the more habitually we do it - over and over each and everyday - is the degree to which we can consider our will having been purified. Until the day comes (hopefully here on earth) when all is in complete conformity and He is litterally acting in and through us at all times.

So hopefully now we can see the real folly of monologue . . . and that dialogue is key to everything! Or as Br. Lawrence says, continual heart-felt conversation with God is the surest, simpliest and easiest path to holiness . . . something all of us must learn to do as our principal devotion.

Make sense??
Dave

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Face

 

[DBT]

Active Night of Sense
First and foremost this has to do with absolutely avoiding mortal sin, guarding ourselves against even the opportunity for venial sin and beginning to learn how to stamp out/supress imperfections when we come to notice them. All of this is closely wrapped up in the seven capital sins: pride, greed, lust, anger, gluttony, envy and sloth . . . and how we are to combat these vices with the corresponding virtue. In this night, imperfection in our application of virtue is common; namely being “transactional” in our approach: doing something good in hopes of getting something in return. Additional key learning is to discover the “appetites” we’re most prone to (our predominant fault) and how we use it to excess . . . as a want rather than a need.

We learn to guard the “exterior” entranceway to our soul of all that is immorderate: what we see, hear, feel, taste, touch and so on.

Active Night of Spirit
This pertains to guarding against all that is immoderate in the “interior” entranceways to our soul:

Memory - This is the “art” of learning to live entirely in the present moment. It is turning off the background noise that seems to continually run through the back of our minds (day dreams, snippets of conversations, fantasies, to-do lists, what-if’ing etc) and curbing the harmful effects of an over active imagination (distorting reality, making mountains out of a mole hill, leaping to rash judgements). The profound harm these “movies in our mind” cause us is a forgetfulness of God. . . whom we must learn to ceaselessly remember. In short, we do this by stopping the incessent talking to ourselves in our mind (monologue) by turning over our cares and concerns to God through the simple act of talking to Him interiorly (dialogue).

Intellect - The big killer here is idle curiosity in all manner of natural knowledge (people, places, things etc) that draws us back to ourselves and away from God. All the “useless knowledge” we constantly come into contact with leads to vanity, wasting time, idle chit-chat and stubbornly clinging to our own opinions. The result is a profound forgetfulness of God.

Will - Here the big culprit is self-love . . .egoism. Whereas purification of the memory is mostly concerned with the thoughts that enter our mind; the will is concerned with regulating our “passions” . . . namely feelings: our joys, our hopes, our fears, our sorrows. The key thing to learn to bring our will into the present moment is to continually raise our mind and heart to God at the “first movement” of an emotion. In other words, don’t dwell on a particular joy, hope, fear or sorrow and just leave it there.

Now, let’s see if we can bring all this home and provide at least 1 real world example that will show how all this works by taking a quick tour through these nights.

First, St. John of the Cross is either wonderful or confusing (depending on your outlook) because he is a systematic thinker: segmenting, sorting, categorizing, compartmentalizing and so on. While this might be helpful and necessary to explain the goings-on of the soul . . . that’s not how our souls really work. For example, can we really seperate the exterior senses (seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, touching) from the effect they have on our interior faculties (intellect, will, memory)? The answer, of course, is no . . . and St. John doesn’t mean to give that impression. So the nights I’m talking about have a tendency to flow together in actual, real world experience.

Second, we must always keep in mind that in these active nights St. John is not talking about sin (mortal or venial) . . . for it is presumed the soul is largely beyond that. What he’s concerned with are habitual imperfections that make us forgetful of God.

At the risk of getting personal, let me give 1 real life example. I have a particular weakness for talk radio. It’s an appetite I know I need to control. But sometimes I’m not very vigilant in what I allow myself to hear and I thus take a small fall in the active night of sense. Through the simple act of listening (which I state again is not a sin and entirely licit) I “allow” and “choose” to let the barbarians who I “know” are camping just outside the gate to enter my soul . . . a small fall in the active night of spirit.

Meet the barbarians now firmly entrenched: my intellect is filled with useless and trivial knowledge . . . opinion I seek out simply because it conforms to mine. My will becomes inflamed by enciting all my passions to things of this world and my memory becomes preoccupied with all sorts of thoughts that are not germaine to 1) the duties of my state in life or 2) the love of God.

The result of all this is precisely what St. John warns against . . . a profound forgetfulness of God . . . at least for the duration of the act. Longer if it takes particular hold of me and I find myself recalling to memory things I heard at other times in the day.

I say this again lest anyone get the wrong idea or see this as scrupleous. This is not a sin . . . but it’s precisely the type of habitual imperfection St. John has in mind in “The Ascent of Mount Carmel.” And why he comes across to some as harsh and forbidding.

As Inlight wisely brought up in the preceeding post, balance is critically important in all of this. All of this will be played out differently in each of us . . . the self-knowledge given in prayer (echos of the passive night of spirit) will show us the line in the sand between what is, on the one hand, a simple self-indulgence and, on the other, an “imperfection that renders union with God” impossible."

All of this works like peeling back the layers of an onion. What we see today as no big deal will down the road take on new found importance as God’s light slowly works on us over time . . . particularily when contemplation is involved. And when this light becomes a spiritual torment . . . then we will have at least some taste of the passive night of spirit and will experience, at least in a small way, the mystery of the Saints.

Now take this one small example I cite and multiple it by the millions of things lying in wait to trip us up in the form of habitual imperfectons and we will see the reason St. John calls all of this a Night.

Not sure if that helps . . . but it’s all I got

Dave

 

[glenaitken]

dave, I think I get it, but tell me what your thoughts are on the passive night of the spirit. Particularly obligations and responsibilities toward God, and what signs accompany the onset of it. Please too, if you get a second, the higher forms of prayer as ST. therese decribes- beyond the presence of God and into the "Pyrayers of Union " (I think I just made that word up). what are they, how do you klnow they’re real, how should a person pray?
thanks, Glen