Dark Night of the Soul... a couple of questions specifically aimed at Carmelites

[Online_Knight]

I am finishing up a study of Saint John of the Cross’s Dark Night of the Soul. This work is absolutely wonderful but it has left me with a lot of questions.

I can’t keep the thought out of my head that the ultimate goal of union with God, according to Saint John of the Cross, cannot be achieved if one is married and raising a family. Obviously everyone knows that parenthood is an important vocation, but is it possible to be a good parent in today’s world and undergo the purifications necessary to achieve that ultimate union with God?

There seem to be a lot of warnings about not allowing money to become a “god” in your life. Would having a job, supporting your family, saving for retirement, vacationing, etc be a block to purification and union with God?

Should we strive for the “Dark Night”… at the risk of hurting others (family)?

I guess my main question… especially for our Third Order Carmelites who have studied this… is how do they recommend balancing family obligations / vocations and the desire for perfect union with God.

I know this post doesn’t seem to make much sense, but I am having trouble putting my questions and thoughts about this into words. Help!

 

[Joysong]

What St. Teresa of Avila’s caution regarding financial matters concerned the ‘attachment’ and constant striving for more and more money. Usually at the root of this is some form of selfishness or dependence upon worldly opinion that causes a person to strive. Miserliness would possibly be an outcome that prevents one from seeing the needs of others and hearing that still small voice expanding the heart to relieve them.

Be at peace, a family man is not prevented from union with God when he prudently cares for his family as his lawful vocation would require of him.

 

[JimO]

I am finishing up a study of Saint John of the Cross’s Dark Night of the Soul. This work is absolutely wonderful but it has left me with a lot of questions.
… Help!

I can recommend a fantastic book entitled, “The Fulfillment of All Desire” by Ralph Martin. He deals in detail with the stages of the spiritual journey, culminating in union with God, using the writings of seven doctors of the Church, most notably St. John of the Cross, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Francis de Sales, and St. Teresa of Avila.

Most of the saints were addressing their writings to priests and religious, therefore, one can come away with a sense that lay persons cannot achieve the higher levels of spiritual growth and union with God. This is not true. St. Francis de Sales’ book “The Devout Life” is a compilation of his writings to lay persons under his spiritual direction. He gives very practical advise to lay persons for growing in holiness. Ralph Martin does a great job of putting all the mystical writings of the saints into everyday language.

I don’t often recommend books, but this book will give you hope that one can achieve union with God in this life while becoming a better husband, wife, parent, child, worker, etc. You need not neglect any of your life duties to grow in holiness. On the contrary, as Ralph Martin demonstrates in his book, that we are all called to holiness and union with God through our vocation (religious or lay), not apart from it. This is the cornerstone of the writings of St. Jose Marie Escriva (not in Martin’s book) - holiness through our life vocation.

May God richly bless you for having the desire.

 

[Joysong]

I can’t keep the thought out of my head that the ultimate goal of union with God, according to Saint John of the Cross, cannot be achieved if one is married and raising a family.

It occurred to me that many people read the words of these saints and do not fully understand the terminology they use. The Dark Night is speaking of passive purifications in one’s spirit that have little to do with our vocation, but much to do with our prayer life and growth in virtue. I seem to remember that St. Teresa’s brother was married, but had attained a very advanced degree of contemplative prayer. That is true of many married people, but I couldn’t say for sure they are canonized saints.

In the first ‘night’ of sense, there is a purifying element that detaches us from our dependence upon spiritual feelings and consolations, and we learn to love God with purity of heart for Himself alone, with or without any ability to sense His presence.

I remember Jesus’s words, “first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear.” God gradually accomodates us in the manner which we are able to receive His grace and gifts, all in accordance with our personal fidelity to that which we perceive He is asking of us.

In the second night, there begins a purification of the spirit in a much deeper level, one that man is unable to accomplish on his own by willing it or even by his own strong fidelity. One might call this the radical pruning of the vine to bear more fruit, always measured with God’s infinite love for us.

 

[DBT]

I can’t keep the thought out of my head that the ultimate goal of union with God, according to Saint John of the Cross, cannot be achieved if one is married and raising a family. Obviously everyone knows that parenthood is an important vocation, but is it possible to be a good parent in today’s world and undergo the purifications necessary to achieve that ultimate union with God?

There seem to be a lot of warnings about not allowing money to become a “god” in your life. Would having a job, supporting your family, saving for retirement, vacationing, etc be a block to purification and union with God?

Should we strive for the “Dark Night”… at the risk of hurting others (family)?

Hi Online Knight -

Here’s some thoughts to those already added . . .

Sometimes when we read St. John it’s easy to get the impression his teaching on the Dark Nights is something of his own creation. But nothing could be further from the truth. Everything he says about the Dark Nights is pure Gospel . . . it’s just that his experience of it was so exalted we loose sight of it.

In this light, I think it’s helpful to think of the Dark Nights in the context of the “narrow gate” and the call we are all expected by Christ to make . . . to embrace our own crosses. St. Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) had an interesting take on this. She equated the night of sense with the decision we make to pick up and carry our cross. This takes the form of self denial and detachment that individuals in all walks of life are expected to make. The night of spirit represents death on the cross where all vestiges of selfish clingings are passively purged by God from the soul. The transforming union, in turn, represents our resurrection in which we are born into the “new man” in which St. Paul speaks.

Or another way I’ve seen it expressed is through a simple word game that substitutes “painful suffering” for “dark night” — and we can see again that none are immune. Much of St. John’s discussion on the nights center precisely on the pain experienced in the soul from trials of both sense and spirit. And much of this pain can be traced to our lack of acceptance. In short, we resist and don’t embrace our crosses.

As laypersons the types of crosses we recieve might be different from those described by St. John . . . or experienced at a more moderate level of intensity. But crosses we do have. And while it might be a bit of an oversimplification, one aspect of the transforming union is when we’ve reached the point that we not only accept our trials . . . but the pain becomes the joy in suffering.

Both St. Teresa and St. John attest that many souls in all walks of life enter the night of sense while relatively few are brought to the night of spirit and final union. It’s not to hard to see why. Sadly, in large part, it’s a choice we make.

That’s the theory behind it (or at least an opinion). Here’s the practice:

As a married father of 4 and Secular Carmelite I can relate to everything you say in your post. Work, vacations, money and so on need not be an obstacle to the union we are all called. It’s not the “things” themselves that block us; rather it’s our “attitude” toward them. In a word . . . detachment; the essence of St. John’s night of sense.

I suppose the acid test would go something like this: When we find our thoughts drawn to these type of things does our heart immediately leap to prayer? If so, you’re probably on pretty firm footing. If our thoughts lead us to worry, anxiety, pride, self-satisfaction and so on . . . the worship of “self” . . . then we probably have some work to do.

Hope this helps . . .
Dave.

 

[InLight247]

I mail ordered “The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross” at year end of 2007. It’s my first time to read St. John. I didn’t think my prayer experience have anything to do with the night. However, after finishing Book One of Dark Night, reviewing all the highlighted symptoms, and my comments written on the margin, I know I must have been in the darkness without realizing it. Like Dave said, Dark Night was not St. John’s creative writing. Otherwise, the descriptions in the book would not be experienced by an ordinary person like me, four hundred some years later.

It is the same for St. Teresa’s Seven Mansions. I had no clue about contemplation until I read “Fire Within”. I was so excited to see my own experience vividly described in the book. The excitement gave me hard time to fall into sleep at night, so I put down the book for several weeks before re-picking it up.

I have to give thanks to this spirituality forum, especially to some Carmelites here, whose contributions to the discussion and recommendation of the classic readings have helped me tremendously. If it were not because of you, I may remain ignorant about the terminologies even familiar with the substances. The Saints’ writings are universal and valuable.

 

[Al_Masetti]

About 15 years ago, I spent a lot of time reading St. John of the Cross. Did a paper on him. The problem that I found was that I read (as I recall) five different translations of “Dark Night of the Soul” and each of the English versions was different.

My advice would be to visit a good college library and find several translations and lay them out one next to the other and compare them. And also get a copy of the “original” Spanish version. And compare it with the translations. You might be surprised. It’s not what it seems.

I would offer to key in the relevant parts of my old paper, but I can’t find it. All my stuff is in boxes as we are (still) in a never-ending house painting project.

 

[Nita]

…

I can’t keep the thought out of my head that the ultimate goal of union with God, according to Saint John of the Cross, cannot be achieved if one is married and raising a family. Obviously everyone knows that parenthood is an important vocation, but is it possible to be a good parent in today’s world and undergo the purifications necessary to achieve that ultimate union with God?

Please keep in mind that Mary and Joseph were married and raising Jesus.

Nita

 

[Al_Masetti]

Please keep in mind that Mary and Joseph were married and raising Jesus.

Nita

From the poster:

Originally Posted by Online Knight
…

I can’t keep the thought out of my head that the ultimate goal of union with God, according to Saint John of the Cross, cannot be achieved if one is married and raising a family. Obviously everyone knows that parenthood is an important vocation, but is it possible to be a good parent in today’s world and undergo the purifications necessary to achieve that ultimate union with God?

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There is no substitute for constant prayer … Continuously raising the heart and mind to God. Invoking the Holy Spirit daily or hourly. Daily Mass whenever possible. Daily visits to the Blessed Sacrament whenever possible. Pray while driving; pray while waiting somewhere … for a bus, in the supermarket checkout line; walking down the hallway; in the bathroom; in the library; while waiting for sleep to take over; in airports and bus terminals and train stations.

A prayer that I have evolved for myself over the years is:

“Dear Lord, please grant me direction, guidance, cash flow, and work. Hold me in Your Arms, forgive me my sins, and make me the way You want me to be. Holy Spirit, guide and enlighten us. Mary, Seat of Wisdom, pray for us.”

It borrows from a lot of friends and teachers.

But it covers the ground. And it just is on the lips all the time.

I encourage people to take prayer partners and I encourage my prayer partners to embrace prayers along those lines.

Prudence in decision-making is important but, for success, it must go hand-in-hand with Divine Intervention. And, while the Lord looks out for folks, it helps to be in the habit of asking for His Help.

I’m old. And I have the benefit of being able to look back and count up the hundreds of times that some amazing miracle of timing averted disaster or helped me study for an exam or some total stranger came along and provided vital assistance.

The only reason I got through college was, I am convinced, that I used to stop off at a Catholic church near school and pray every morning for myself and for “whoever needs it the most” … because right then at that moment there was someone somewhere whose back was against the wall.

It applied equally to sports, dating, issues at work, choosing a car, job search, hobbies, volunteer work, … and having a family. Whenever I failed, and I did fail, in retrospect it was either part of my learning process or it was because I failed to trust in God. His Grace is there, but sometimes we have to embrace it. To reach out for it. And sometimes I failed to do that.

So, pray also for the wisdom to reach out.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I am not a Carmelite but I think probably that if The Lord desires a person enter into The Dark Night then such will occur and no matter one’s vocation… and His Grace will sustain. The Dark Night is a work of The Lord alone.

Blessings … Barb

 

[elt1956]

What St. Teresa of Avila’s caution regarding financial matters concerned the ‘attachment’ and constant striving for more and more money. Usually at the root of this is some form of selfishness or dependence upon worldly opinion that causes a person to strive. Miserliness would possibly be an outcome that prevents one from seeing the needs of others and hearing that still small voice expanding the heart to relieve them.

Be at peace, a family man is not prevented from union with God when he prudently cares for his family as his lawful vocation would require of him.

I think this has been a struggle for all who have lived and will continue to be one for those who live after us. One way to decide if you are letting “earthly” things keep you from the heavenly is to ask each time one wants to acquire something, "Is this a “need”, or is this a “want”? Every human being has basic needs such as love, shelter, food, spirituality (this can also include things other than Religion, such as Art, Music etc.) clothing. Most of us also need some form of communication with others. Our “wants” are what get in our way, such as that new car which I can’t afford, such as that lavish dinner which I deserve four times a month etc. I think you get the picture. ANYTHING in excess is detrimental to our relationship with God. Whatever your vocation, unless you would be a cloistered, or contemplative religious, can be balanced. If one has a family, then that is your vocation. And hopefully, along with your faith, that will also get your attention… A balance among all the things that pull at you will lead to more peace than if you concentrate on one thing to the exclusion of others. Peace.

 

[DBT]

. . . and a clarification regarding what was previously said about trials.

The Dark Nights (sense and spirit) are spiritual crisis points that mark our transition into a deeper relationship with Christ. Trials may spark these interior conversions but they should not, in themselves, be considered a Dark Night. One can have a rough day at the office, be experiencing longterm setbacks in the workplace, enduring all sorts of family illnesses and so on and not be in a Dark Night. We see this all the time on these forums.

The key to understanding the Dark Nights is that, ultimately, they are experienced contemplatively. A trial may occur . . . and the key is how we see it and respond. Do we detach ourselves more and more from things of the world and self? Do we abandon ourselves lovingly to God’s will? Do we love in the face of endless contridiction? Do we practice all types of virtue when confronted with crushing adversity?

If this type of interior disposition is present, then it is certainly possible the trial may be part of a Dark Night experience because the soul is being transformed into Christ. This is especially true if we recoginize the virtue being practiced as being beyond our natural ability. The only explanation then in the infused presence of God acting in us and through us.

Dave.

 

[InLight247]

Indeed, too often people mix up anxieties and pains resulted from trails in life with dark night.
There is no equal sign between alienation of self from prayers /God due to life’s problems and dark night.

Actually, like St. John said, the first night could be a glad night. It appears that way to me.
Even with tears, the sweetness and joy is always there. Even with spiritual pains, the consolation is always present. I am talking about the night of sense.

Dark night can only be best understood by experiencing it personally and spiritually.
And one can not really understand dark night without the experience of contemplation.
Contemplation is also hard to understand unless one has experienced it.

I hope my opinion makes sense.

 

[Joysong]

InLight:

I mail ordered “The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross” at year end of 2007. It’s my first time to read St. John. I didn’t think my prayer experience have anything to do with the night. However, after finishing Book One of Dark Night, reviewing all the highlighted symptoms, and my comments written on the margin, I know I must have been in the darkness without realizing it. Like Dave said, Dark Night was not St. John’s creative writing. Otherwise, the descriptions in the book would not be experienced by an ordinary person like me, four hundred some years later.

When the pupil is ready, the Master will come.

Many things Jesus wanted to teach the apostles, but they weren’t ready to learn. He said when the Spirit comes, however, He will make known all that Jesus wanted to teach them, but couldn’t.

I just finished Fire Within, and had purchased it as-is from Amazon. I was amazed that not a page was marked, damaged, nor had any evidence whatsoever that it had ever been read by the first owner. All I could think was, s(he) wasn’t ready.

Isn’t it amazing, InLight, how God instructs us? You are blessed to understand your journey a little better, and I’m glad you persevered in your study of St. John’s wonderful book.

Carole

 

[InLight247]

When the pupil is ready, the Master will come.
Many things Jesus wanted to teach the apostles, but they weren’t ready to learn. He said when the Spirit comes, however, He will make known all that Jesus wanted to teach them, but couldn’t.

Carole, You are so right. God always meets us at where we are.

I just finished Fire Within, and had purchased it as-is from Amazon. I was amazed that not a page was marked, damaged, nor had any evidence whatsoever that it had ever been read by the first owner. All I could think was, s(he) wasn’t ready.

I know you will like “Fire Within”. What a good book!
No, not everyone can finish reading that book. I recommended it to a friend in church who is very pious. She purchased it but could not read it. Even for a much lighter book “The Practice of the Presence of God”, couple of my church friends bought it after hearing my repeated recommendations,but they both found it hard to read.
The previous owner of your copy of “Fire Within” probably did not finish reading it.

Each of us can only follow our own pace. The traveling speed on our spiritual journey is relative to the intensity of our longing.

Isn’t it amazing, InLight, how God instructs us? You are blessed to understand your journey a little better, and I’m glad you persevered in your study of St. John’s wonderful book.

Yes, God is always amazing. We have an amazing God. I did not know I would like St. John. It takes time to read Him. I am about getting into the Second Book of Dark Night. Due to the extreme business lately, it will be a slow progress for this reading.

 

[glenaitken]

I am finishing up a study of Saint John of the Cross’s Dark Night of the Soul. This work is absolutely wonderful but it has left me with a lot of questions.

I can’t keep the thought out of my head that the ultimate goal of union with God, according to Saint John of the Cross, cannot be achieved if one is married and raising a family. Obviously everyone knows that parenthood is an important vocation, but is it possible to be a good parent in today’s world and undergo the purifications necessary to achieve that ultimate union with God?

There seem to be a lot of warnings about not allowing money to become a “god” in your life. Would having a job, supporting your family, saving for retirement, vacationing, etc be a block to purification and union with God?

Should we strive for the “Dark Night”… at the risk of hurting others (family)?

I guess my main question… especially for our Third Order Carmelites who have studied this… is how do they recommend balancing family obligations / vocations and the desire for perfect union with God.

I know this post doesn’t seem to make much sense, but I am having trouble putting my questions and thoughts about this into words. Help!

I am not a Carmelite, but I think that it is possible to go through this with a family. Union with God would only enhance the love of neighbor- and this would play out more so in the family life than in any other. Just because you need money does not mean that you neccesarrlity want it. there is the grace of being poor in spirit that is independant of physical wealth. The only way that this “Balance” can occur is if one takes the little way of st therese. all of our obligations in the married life can be used as an opportunity to grow in holiness, and therefore union with God. It’s not so much about balance for me as it is about integration of the faith in daily life and the transcendance of the daily life through grace.