Dark Night of the Soul

[Ancient1]

The “Dark Night” as expounded by St. John of the Cross is described here with lots of very descriptive words, abandoned by God, desolate, lonely, no consolation, etc. Yet it’s clear this “Dark Night” is a profound spiritual experience only for those rather advanced in their relationship with God, and ultimately leads to deeper spirituality.

So what I wonder, and am curious what you all think, how is this different, or maybe the same, as profound depression, in the sense of mental illness or emotional melancholy? Some of the same feelings occur, especially feeling abandoned. Yet we know clinical depression is NOT a spiritual experience and usually does not lead to any better understanding of the Divine. It’s a terrible illness that can ruin or destroy a life.

How does one distinguish if there is any element of God in a depressive episode? Or should we put this all in the care of doctors first, and then pursue the Divine once we are under medical guidance? It’s confusing to me.

 

[mercytruth]

The “Dark Night” as expounded by St. John of the Cross is described here with lots of very descriptive words, abandoned by God, desolate, lonely, no consolation, etc. Yet it’s clear this “Dark Night” is a profound spiritual experience only for those rather advanced in their relationship with God, and ultimately leads to deeper spirituality.

So what I wonder, and am curious what you all think, how is this different, or maybe the same, as profound depression, in the sense of mental illness or emotional melancholy? Some of the same feelings occur, especially feeling abandoned. Yet we know clinical depression is NOT a spiritual experience and usually does not lead to any better understanding of the Divine. It’s a terrible illness that can ruin or destroy a life.

How does one distinguish if there is any element of God in a depressive episode? Or should we put this all in the care of doctors first, and then pursue the Divine once we are under medical guidance? It’s confusing to me.

The Exposition of the Dark Night by St. John of the Cross actually explains the similarity, but also the difference between ‘melancholy’ and the Dark Night. One would do well to read about it.

God’s peace.

 

[mercytruth]

What is the Dark Night of the spirit?

It is the complete abandonment of God. St.John of the Cross speaks of it as purgatory on earth. Very few ever enter into such abandonment while on this earth.

God’s peace.

 

[mercytruth]

The poem is the entire basis for the two works of John of the Cross. The Ascent of Mt. Carmel and The Dark Night of the Soul. John is considered one of the greatest of Spanish poets.He is also considered the Mystical Doctor of the Church.

You are correct Therese (for a short time) and Mother Theresa (for 50 years) experienced the Dark Night. I’m not sure about Faustina.

I pulled out my diary of St.Faustina and if you please, one quotation from it with special emphasis of mine underlined:

"**Thank you, Jesus, for interior sufferings, for dryness of spirit, for terrors, fears, and incertitudes, for the darkness and the deep interior night, for temptations and various ordeals, for torments too difficult to describe,especially for those which no one will understand, for the hour of death with its fierce struggle and all its bitterness.

I thank You, Jesus, You who first drank the cup of bitterness before You gave it to me, in a much milder form.**

St. John of the Cross quotes Ps.116 describing this anguish that David experienced, but it is apparently the same Psalm that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost (Shavout). On the day of Shavuot, Hallel (the Psalms of Ascent: Psalms 113-119 were recited). So Psalm 116 would have been fresh in the ears of the Jewish listeners.

First, Peter’s words on the day of Shavuot: “God raised him up, having loosed him from the sorrows of Sheol, for it was not possible to be held by them”.

Now, the quotation of St.John of the Cross from Psalm 116 describing the Dark Night:
"The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of Sheol got hold of me"

I don’t know if St. John of the Cross understood that those who experienced the Dark Night were experiencing something of the sufferings of Jesus Christ, but from the diary of St. Faustina, she understood it that way.

 

[Inquiringperson]

How does one know if they had the Dark Night?

 

[Gertabelle]

The “Dark Night” as expounded by St. John of the Cross is described here with lots of very descriptive words, abandoned by God, desolate, lonely, no consolation, etc. Yet it’s clear this “Dark Night” is a profound spiritual experience only for those rather advanced in their relationship with God, and ultimately leads to deeper spirituality.

So what I wonder, and am curious what you all think, how is this different, or maybe the same, as profound depression, in the sense of mental illness or emotional melancholy?

Consider as an example someone who experienced the dark night of the soul, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta. By her own words and the testimony of her spiritual directors, she experienced the dark night of the soul for decades. But she did not look or act as one who was suffering from depression. She had a purpose and a drive and a smile and a balance that was simply beautiful.

So although she felt that dryness, darkness, and abandonment for decades, she did not fall into despair, lethargy, apathy, dispondancy. I would think the difference, then, is not in the feelings, but in the actions of the person having those feelings. …but I’m neither a physcian nor a theologian.

Gertie

 

[Ancient1]

The Exposition of the Dark Night by St. John of the Cross actually explains the similarity, but also the difference between ‘melancholy’ and the Dark Night. One would do well to read about it.

Well, yes, naturally I have read about it, and I thought a forum called Catholic Answers might also be an OK place to ask about it as well. Some of us are not so scholarly, especially when it comes to the “Dark Night” which many intelligent people claim to have been unable to finish, or have read it and not comprehended. After all this is real mysticism.

But I guess I did not clarify my idea. If St. John walked into his doctor today, straight off he’d be put on Prozac. Is there a conflict here? Or maybe none of us should be going thru a “Dark Night” if we don’t need to? Someone mentions Mother Teresa: how would her work, life, etc, have been different with 50 mg of Trazadone at night? Might it have helped her and therefore helped others? I don’t know, just wondering…

 

[KateKimmer]

it feels like abandonment of God. it is like walking through the valley of the shadow of death. it is like a dry desert with no water in sight. it is despair without anger, without denying the justice of God, but not knowing his loving kindness. it is profound sadness that is without the joy of the Lord. it is a vale of tears that will not flow. it is a life where nothing in this world will satisfy.

I think Mother Theresa of Calcutta experienced this in her latter years.

I have already expereinced it, but probably not at the same level as Mother Teresa.

 

[mercytruth]

How does one know if they had the Dark Night?

depression, which he calls melancholy.

.** The first (sign) is whether, when a soul finds no pleasure or consolation in the things of God, it also fails to find it in any thing created; for, as God sets the soul in this dark night to the end that He may quench and purge its sensual desire, He allows it not to find attraction or sweetness in anything whatsoever. In such a case it may be considered very probable6363[Lit., ‘And in this it is known very probably.’] that this aridity and insipidity proceed not from recently committed sins or imperfections. For, if this were so, the soul would feel in its nature some inclination or desire to taste other things than those of God; since, whenever the desire is allowed indulgence in any imperfection, it immediately feels inclined thereto, whether little or much, in proportion to the pleasure and the love that it has put into it. Since, however, this lack of enjoyment in things above or below might proceed from some indisposition or melancholy humour, which oftentimes makes it impossible for the soul to take pleasure in anything, it becomes necessary to apply the second sign and condition. **.

**3. The second sign whereby a man may believe himself to be experiencing the said purgation is that the memory is ordinarily centred upon God, with painful care and solicitude, thinking that it is not serving God, but is backsliding, because it finds itself without sweetness in the things of God. And in such a case it is evident that this lack of sweetness and this aridity come not from weakness and lukewarmness; for it is the nature of lukewarmness not to care greatly or to have any inward solicitude for the things of God. There is thus a great difference between aridity and lukewarmness, for lukewarmness consists in great weakness and remissness in the will and in the spirit, without solicitude as to serving God; whereas purgative aridity is ordinarily accompanied by solicitude, with care and grief as I say, because the soul is not serving God. And, although this may sometimes be increased by melancholy or some other humour (as it frequently is), it fails not for that reason to produce a purgative effect upon the desire, since the desire is deprived of all pleasure and has its care centred upon God alone. For, when mere humour is the cause, it spends itself in displeasure and ruin of the physical nature, and there are none of those desires to sense God which belong to purgative aridity. When the cause is aridity, it is true that the sensual part of the soul has fallen low, and is weak and feeble in its actions, by reason of the little pleasure which it finds in them; but the spirit, on the other hand, is ready and strong. **

St.John of the Cross then goes on to explain in what manner the spirit is ready and strong.
One who is suffering from clinical depression does not have a spirit that is ready and strong.

 

[mercytruth]

Well, yes, naturally I have read about it, and I thought a forum called Catholic Answers might also be an OK place to ask about it as well. Some of us are not so scholarly, especially when it comes to the “Dark Night” which many intelligent people claim to have been unable to finish, or have read it and not comprehended. After all this is real mysticism.

But I guess I did not clarify my idea. If St. John walked into his doctor today, straight off he’d be put on Prozac. Is there a conflict here? Or maybe none of us should be going thru a “Dark Night” if we don’t need to? Someone mentions Mother Teresa: how would her work, life, etc, have been different with 50 mg of Trazadone at night? Might it have helped her and therefore helped others? I don’t know, just wondering…

I hope post #49 helps as I am quoting from St.John of the Cross in his explanation between the Dark Night of the senses and depression, or melancholy.

(this is taken from chapter IX)

God’s peace be with you.

 

[mercytruth]

Consider as an example someone who experienced the dark night of the soul, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta. By her own words and the testimony of her spiritual directors, she experienced the dark night of the soul for decades. But she did not look or act as one who was suffering from depression. She had a purpose and a drive and a smile and a balance that was simply beautiful.

So although she felt that dryness, darkness, and abandonment for decades, she did not fall into despair, lethargy, apathy, dispondancy. I would think the difference, then, is not in the feelings, but in the actions of the person having those feelings. …but I’m neither a physcian nor a theologian.

Gertie

You are describing the difference between depression and the Dark Night according to St.John of the Cross. Mother Theresa had a spirit that was willing and strong!

 

[mercytruth]

I have already expereinced it, but probably not at the same level as Mother Teresa.

It should be known that these were expressions of my own, and not that of St.John of the Cross who is more of an authority on this subject.

God’s peace be with you.

 

[Joannm]

I pulled out my diary of St.Faustina and if you please, one quotation from it with special emphasis of mine underlined:

"Thank you, Jesus, for interior sufferings, for dryness of spirit, for terrors, fears, and incertitudes, for the darkness and the deep interior night, for temptations and various ordeals, for torments too difficult to describe,especially for those which no one will understand, for the hour of death with its fierce struggle and all its bitterness.

I thank You, Jesus, You who first drank the cup of bitterness before You gave it to me, in a much milder form.

St. John of the Cross quotes Ps.116 describing this anguish that David experienced, but it is apparently the same Psalm that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost (Shavout). On the day of Shavuot, Hallel (the Psalms of Ascent: Psalms 113-119 were recited). So Psalm 116 would have been fresh in the ears of the Jewish listeners.

First, Peter’s words on the day of Shavuot: **“God raised him up, having loosed him from the sorrows of Sheol, **for it was not possible to be held by them”.

Now, the quotation of St.John of the Cross from Psalm 116 describing the Dark Night:
"The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of Sheol got hold of me"

I don’t know if St. John of the Cross understood that those who experienced the Dark Night were experiencing something of the sufferings of Jesus Christ, but from the diary of St. Faustina, she understood it that way.

Thank you for these references to Faustina’s diary. I read it a number of years ago but wan’t sure if she experienced the Dark Night.

 

[mercytruth]

Thank you for these references to Faustina’s diary. I read it a number of years ago but wan’t sure if she experienced the Dark Night.

You are welcome.

It is my humble opinion, that in order for St. Faustina to be chosen of God to be of the apostolate of Divine Mercy, St. Faustina had to experienced something of the **Divine Sufferings **of our Lord Jesus Christ ( of which Hans Baltashar in **Mysterium Pashale **writes).

God’s peace be with you.

 

[guanophore]

It really is not that simple.

Yes the spiritual disciplines (in my case the Divine Office and Sunday Mass) do help.

But that’s not the entire picture. It’s a survival mechanism until the light comes back in. It isn’t a simple matter of flipping on the light switch. The veil lifts in its own good time. In the interim there is much pain, much searching, and many issues one has to work out for one’s self.

You are right, of course, the spiritual disciplines are for our survival until the light comes back. I think we would agree that the Light is still present, it is only we who cannot 'see" it.

I was not saying it is the “entire picture”, since the spiritually disciplined life does not prevent us from suffering, only provides us with sustenence during the suffering.

There is much pain, much searching, and much working out of the inner angst that separates us from the character of Christ. In fact,I would venture that the more spiritually dedicated and disciplined one is, the more likely they are to encounter the Dark Night. By “simple” I do not mean “easy”.

 

[guanophore]

Well, yes, naturally I have read about it, and I thought a forum called Catholic Answers might also be an OK place to ask about it as well. Some of us are not so scholarly, especially when it comes to the “Dark Night” which many intelligent people claim to have been unable to finish, or have read it and not comprehended. After all this is real mysticism.

But I guess I did not clarify my idea. If St. John walked into his doctor today, straight off he’d be put on Prozac. Is there a conflict here? Or maybe none of us should be going thru a “Dark Night” if we don’t need to? Someone mentions Mother Teresa: how would her work, life, etc, have been different with 50 mg of Trazadone at night? Might it have helped her and therefore helped others? I don’t know, just wondering…

This is a very good point/question. I think you hit the nail on the head about existential angst being framed as pathological. Our culture has lost the understanding of the value of suffering because suffering has been dislodged from it’s spiritual purpose.

Behavioral medicine tries to medicate the symptoms, rather than look for meaning. But it is important, as mentioned above, not to confuse the Dark Night with meloncholy. Most of America suffers from depression. There are so many people on antidepressants it is getting into the water supply! A person who is in a Dark Night is in a state of growth, while a person who is meloncholic/depressed has often lost faith, hope, and love. They are not connected with any sense of meaning in their lives, or an insufficient sense of meaning that they can understand their suffering purposefully.

The saints who write about the Dark Night are all souls firmly connected to the root of Christ and HIs church. They know that, if nothing else, they can unite their sufferings to the sufferings of Christ for the salvation of the world. This is a concept that is totally foreign to modern medicine.

 

[anom001]

1. The breeze blew from the turret As I parted his locks;
   With his gentle hand he wounded my neck And caused all my
   senses to be suspended

He is present.

peace

hazcompat, or anyone who know, please explain this part of the poem for me. It seems that this part of the poem is not explained in the book unless I’m deeply mistaken. Why would “with his gentle hand he wounded my neck?” Is it a mystic experience of the destruction of the ego? What does the word “suspended” here mean? Does it mean “destroyed” or “held in place”? Actually, if it mean “held in place” then what does it actually mean in more literal term?
I’ve read several translation of this part and they seems to be conflicting.
In the website catholictreasury.info/books/dark_night/dn1.php

“7. When the breeze blew from the turret,
as I parted his hair,
it wounded my neck
with its gentle hand,
suspending all my senses”

Now, it is either the wind or the hair that would the neck, not God. Since the wind and the hair are soft material, the word “wounded” here may have a more artistic meaning than mystical. Loreena McKennitt also have a translation and a song that goes with it. This stanza read (at josvg.home.xs4all.nl/cits/lm/lorecd53.html)

“And by the fortress walls
the wind would brush his hair against his brow
And with its smoothest hand
caressed my every sense it would allow”

It seems that LM’s translation refer to the wind that do the action. There is no broken neck here, and the word “suspended” is translated as “caressed”. So I think she not only use the meaning “held in place” but “held in place for caressing”. Is this a correct translation or a complete romanticized version?

I’m trying to translate this poem to my native language. Unfortunately, I don’t know Spanish so I rely on the English versions for the meaning. Help is deeply appreciated.

Thanks in advance

 

[Evan]

I always thought the poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins (1844–89) described someone coming out of a Dark Night.

NOT, I’ll not, carrion comfort, Despair, not feast on thee;
Not untwist—slack they may be—these last strands of man
In me ór, most weary, cry I can no more. I can;
Can something, hope, wish day come, not choose not to be.

But ah, but O thou terrible, why wouldst thou rude on me
Thy wring-world right foot rock? lay a lion limb against me? scan
With darksome devouring eyes my bruisèd bones? and fan,
O in turns of tempest, me heaped there; me frantic to avoid thee and flee?

Why? That my chaff might fly; my grain lie, sheer and clear.
Nay in all that toil, that coil, since (seems) I kissed the rod,
Hand rather, my heart lo! lapped strength, stole joy, would laugh, chéer.
Cheer whom though? the hero whose heaven-handling flung me, fóot tród
Me? or me that fought him? O which one? is it each one? That night, that year
Of now done darkness I wretch lay wrestling with (my God!) my God.