Darkness

[Michael_Mayo]

Hi. My response is the same as to the other poster (posts 17 and 18).

But they dont really acknowledge the fact that belief in survival of death does not require belief in God. They are two distinct issues.

 

[ChineseCatholic]

But they dont really acknowledge the fact that belief in survival of death does not require belief in God. They are two distinct issues.

I think people are confusing the term “atheist” with “materialist”.

Its unsurprising because the terms go hand in hand in the modern world.

But as made evident by certain Hellenistic and Indian philosophical schools, one can be an atheist and still believe in existence(s) after death.

Furthermore, we have a representation of a materialist school of thought that was Theistic - The Stoics.

What needs to be acknowledged though that while these ancient belief systems didnt require an anthropomorphic god, they did usually ascribe some of those beings characteristics to an Impersonal Process or Force - usually devoid of anything resembling a Personality.

 

[fred_conty]

Hello, I’m a first timer here and have for a few days been trying to come a desicion on that great equalizer: death. Or, to be specific, whether to believe certain accounts regarding it.

Anyone who’s Googled “life after death” probably has happened upon this article one time or another:

express.co.uk/news/science/713799/life-after-death-afterlife-heaven-dead

This guy claims to have died twice (clinical death, I’m guessing) and both times awoke from complete nothingness with a memory lapse, having to be informed by doctors that he had ‘died.’ This is not an isolated case either, I’ve been finding accounts like these all over the Internet in an attempt to come to a conclusion that doesn’t weaken or otherwise eradicate my faith. Of course, this calls to mind the Near Death Experience phenomenon, with the general consensus from this crowd being that anyone who’s ever had one was simply hallucinating and these guys are true testaments to death’s finality. I’m finding it hard to come up with a decent rebuttable toward these atheistic claims of theirs.

At first I thought “Maybe they just saw an extension of Hell,” then I thought “These guys were probably never truly dead in the first place, clinical death is not the same as being 100% dead.” I’m just looking for some closure on this complicated matter, and was wondering as to the thoughts of my fellow Catholics.

And so I ask, what do you guys think of this?

It happened to Lazarus who was dead three days and the people could even smell his decaying.

I have wondered more than once just what he experienced during the time of his death which he never spoke about or described. So it can happen.

 

[Samwise21]

Without using NDEs or the Resurrection of Christ as examples, what would you guys consider to be proofs of the afterlife?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Without using NDEs or the Resurrection of Christ as examples, what would you guys consider to be proofs of the afterlife?

Contact from someone who died.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Contact from someone who died.

Straight to the point . - ,

It appears as if most of the accounts within the article linked in the OP involve people with user names . . . so we should be cautious about reading something which isn’t accompanied by any medical substantiation whatsoever. I’m not saying NDE’s don’t happen (I believe they do). And there are any number of mysterious things which can happen to people in a coma-like state as well . . .things we can’t totally explain.

Fred Conty mentioned our Lord’s dear friend Lazarus several posts ago. In the (OP’s) linked article, Reddit user name r00tdude , claims to have died twice. Now if he truly is alive today as the rest of us are , some time down the line he will necessarily have to die - as we all will. So that will make a total of 3 times ,according to his own accounts, that r00tdude will have died.

Usually we think in terms of outliving someone else , but r00tdude according to his claims, will have “outdied” Lazarus when his soul finally leaves his body . . .:doh2:

It happened to Lazarus who was dead three days and the people could even smell his decaying.

I have wondered more than once just what he experienced during the time of his death which he never spoke about or described. So it can happen.

That brings up yet another good point - that in these times we never hear these people claiming they died for three days . The interval is much more likely to be measured in minutes - represented by a single digit. Could it be possible that today, given enough room, atheists with no real moral reference point and no medical substantiation to boot, might even be able to blur the line between a NDE and an extreme bout of sleep apnea ?

As to precisely what Lazarus experienced I also wonder, but it would seem to have made sense not to speak about it since Lazarus was raised at a time when Christ had not yet undergone his Passion, Death and Resurrection.

In his compelling article Resurrection of Lazarus, Jews and Jewish Tradition ,Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyezenberg explains that Jesus raising Lazarus on the fourth day becomes even more significant because, it wasn’t only about decay setting in after three days, but

. . .according to popular Jewish belief, resurrection was no longer possible - on the fourth day.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Atheism in these days of ours is difficult to define, -even for atheists ; and equally difficult it would seem for the Second Vatican Council, and subsequently Father John Hardon, S.J.

Its definition seems to be in several regards, all over the place.

Here’s how Father Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary defines atheism:

ATHEISM.
Denial of a personal God who is totally distinct from the world he created. Modern atheism has become so varied and widespread that the Second Vatican council identified no less than eight forms of disbelief under the single term atheismus: “Some people expressly deny the existence of God. Others maintain that man cannot make any assertion whatsoever about Him. Still others admit only such methods of investigation as would make it seem quite meaningless to ask questions about God. Many, trespassing beyond the boundaries of the positive sciences, either contend that everything can be explained by the reasoning process used in such sciences, or, on the contrary, hold that there is no such thing as absolute truth. With others it is their exaggerated idea of man that causes their faith to languish; they are more prone, it would seem, to affirm man than to deny God. Yet others have such a faulty notion of God that when they disown this product of the imagination their denial has no reference to the God of the Gospels. There are also those who never enquire about God; religion never seems to trouble or interest them at all, nor do they try to see why they should bother about it” (Church in the Modern World, I, 19). In the light of this array of infidelity, it was only logical for the Council to declare that atheism is one of the greatest problems facing mankind in the world today. (Etym. Greek atheos, denying the gods, without a god.)

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Straight to the point . - ,

It appears as if most of the accounts within the article linked in the OP involve people with user names . . . so we should be cautious about reading something which isn’t accompanied by any medical substantiation whatsoever. I’m not saying NDE’s don’t happen (I believe they do). And there are any number of mysterious things which can happen to people in a coma-like state as well . . .things we can’t totally explain.

Fred Conty mentioned our Lord’s dear friend Lazarus several posts ago. In the (OP’s) linked article, Reddit user name r00tdude , claims to have died twice. Now if he truly is alive today as the rest of us are , some time down the line he will necessarily have to die - as we all will. So that will make a total of 3 times ,according to his own accounts, that r00tdude will have died.

Usually we think in terms of outliving someone else , but r00tdude according to his claims, will have “outdied” Lazarus when his soul finally leaves his body . . .:doh2:

Also, for the most skeptical, it would have to be a person known personally and seen dead and buried. No news accounts or second hand accounts would do. And this person would have to make while the skeptic is awake, alert and also has another witness. How much more convincing could it get?