Darwin and the case for 'militant atheism'

[StAnastasia]

A lot more than one. Glenn Morton has a list of the ones that we know about.

It is a major problem for YEC Flood Geology. If most of geology happened in a year then Noah was getting about two tsunamis a week as all those meteorites hit.

rossum

Rossum, if the flood waters were 29,053 feet deep (fifteen cubits above Mt. Everest), Noah’s Ark would not have been particularly rocked by tsunamis that were not in its immediate vicinity, right? I suppose the splash-back of lava and boiling water could extend several thousand kilometers, however.

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

It is the new circumcision, the requirement to be considered a follower of the new truth, revealed not by God but by the mind of man.

No skin off my nose.

 

[rossum]

Rossum, if the flood waters were 29,053 feet deep (fifteen cubits above Mt. Everest), Noah’s Ark would not have been particularly rocked by tsunamis that were not in its immediate vicinity, right? I suppose the splash-back of lava and boiling water could extend several thousand kilometers, however.

In shallow water tsunamis could have been a problem in a large wooden boat with no steerage - it would broach at the first large wave and be capsized by subsequent waves.

The heat problem you allude to is the real killer for YEC geology. There is enough heat in one year from meteorites, volcanoes and continental drift to boil the oceans and broil Noah, crew and cargo. A lot of heat generated in one year and not enough time for it to dissipate means steamed Noah on the menu.

rossum

 

[donsnow]

In shallow water tsunamis could have been a problem in a large wooden boat with no steerage - it would broach at the first large wave and be capsized by subsequent waves.

The heat problem you allude to is the real killer for YEC geology. There is enough heat in one year from meteorites, volcanoes and continental drift to boil the oceans and broil Noah, crew and cargo. A lot of heat generated in one year and not enough time for it to dissipate means steamed Noah on the menu.

rossum

Does your comment have documentation? Are the calculations demonstrating your observation the only calculations regarding the deluge, or are there contradictory calculations as well? Those concerning alleged heat during the deluge, those calculations.

 

[rossum]

Does your comment have documentation?

Yes.

Are the calculations demonstrating your observation the only calculations regarding the deluge, or are there contradictory calculations as well?

You would have to ask a YEC for the YEC calculations. I am not a YEC.

Those concerning alleged heat during the deluge, those calculations.

1 Known meteorites: home.entouch.net/dmd/meteors.htm. Think of every impact as a multi megaton nuclear explosion.

2 Known volcanic eruptions: I do not have a full list. Here are two very large ones* Deccan Traps - about 3 million cubic kilometres of lava.

• Siberian Traps - about 2.5 million cubic kilometres.

3 Plate Tectonics: Friction causes heat. The movement of continental crust involves friction. If you try to fit a few billion years of plate tectonics into a single flood year then you will get a lot of heat.

Heat is a very big problem for the YEC timescale:Where did all the heat go? If the geologic record was deposited in a year, then the events it records must also have occurred within a year. Some of these events release significant amounts of heat.

• Magma. The geologic record includes roughly 8 x 10[sup]24[/sup] grams of lava flows and igneous intrusions. Assuming (conservatively) a specific heat of 0.15, this magma would release 5.4 x 10[sup]27[/sup] joules while cooling 1100 degrees C. In addition, the heat of crystallization as the magma solidifies would release a great deal more heat.
• Limestone formation. There are roughly 5 x 10[sup]23[/sup] grams of limestone in the earth’s sediments [Poldervaart, 1955], and the formation of calcite releases about 11,290 joules/gram [Weast, 1974, p. D63]. If only 10% of the limestone were formed during the Flood, the 5.6 x 10[sup]26[/sup] joules of heat released would be enough to boil the flood waters.
• Meteorite impacts. Erosion and crustal movements have erased an unknown number of impact craters on earth, but Creationists Whitcomb and DeYoung suggest that cratering to the extent seen on the Moon and Mercury occurred on earth during the year of Noah’s Flood. The heat from just one of the largest lunar impacts released an estimated 3 x 10[sup]26[/sup] joules; the same sized object falling to earth would release even more energy. [Fezer, pp. 45-46]
• Other. Other possibly significant heat sources are radioactive decay (some Creationists claim that radioactive decay rates were much higher during the Flood to account for consistently old radiometric dates); biological decay (think of the heat released in compost piles); and compression of sediments.

5.6 x 10[sup]26[/sup] joules is enough to heat the oceans to boiling. 3.7 x 10[sup]27[/sup] joules will vaporize them completely. Since steam and air have a lower heat capacity than water, the steam released will quickly raise the temperature of the atmosphere over 1000 C. At these temperatures, much of the atmosphere would boil off the Earth.

• Source: Problems with a Global Flood.
  Spread out over billions of years this heat is not a problem, the earth has time to cool down after each addition of heat. Shorten the timescale to one year and there is not enough time for the heat to dissipate into space so it goes to boil the oceans instead.

rossum

 

[StAnastasia]

*]Meteorite impacts. Erosion and crustal movements have erased an unknown number of impact craters on earth, but Creationists Whitcomb and DeYoung suggest that cratering to the extent seen on the Moon and Mercury occurred on earth during the year of Noah’s Flood. The heat from just one of the largest lunar impacts released an estimated 3 x 10[sup]26[/sup] joules; the same sized object falling to earth would release even more energy. [Fezer, pp. 45-46

rossum, there is another problem concerning meteorite impacts: with the water fifteen cubits about the height of Mt. Everest (29,035 feet), the ocean depth a meteorite would have to penetrate to leave an impact crater in the oceanic crust would almost certainly have created numerous Ark-swamping waves.

StAnastasia
[/quote]

 

[donsnow]

Yes.

You would have to ask a YEC for the YEC calculations. I am not a YEC.

1 Known meteorites: home.entouch.net/dmd/meteors.htm. Think of every impact as a multi megaton nuclear explosion.

2 Known volcanic eruptions: I do not have a full list. Here are two very large ones* Deccan Traps - about 3 million cubic kilometres of lava.

• Siberian Traps - about 2.5 million cubic kilometres.

3 Plate Tectonics: Friction causes heat. The movement of continental crust involves friction. If you try to fit a few billion years of plate tectonics into a single flood year then you will get a lot of heat.

Heat is a very big problem for the YEC timescale:Where did all the heat go? If the geologic record was deposited in a year, then the events it records must also have occurred within a year. Some of these events release significant amounts of heat.

• Magma. The geologic record includes roughly 8 x 10[sup]24[/sup] grams of lava flows and igneous intrusions. Assuming (conservatively) a specific heat of 0.15, this magma would release 5.4 x 10[sup]27[/sup] joules while cooling 1100 degrees C. In addition, the heat of crystallization as the magma solidifies would release a great deal more heat.
• Limestone formation. There are roughly 5 x 10[sup]23[/sup] grams of limestone in the earth’s sediments [Poldervaart, 1955], and the formation of calcite releases about 11,290 joules/gram [Weast, 1974, p. D63]. If only 10% of the limestone were formed during the Flood, the 5.6 x 10[sup]26[/sup] joules of heat released would be enough to boil the flood waters.
• Meteorite impacts. Erosion and crustal movements have erased an unknown number of impact craters on earth, but Creationists Whitcomb and DeYoung suggest that cratering to the extent seen on the Moon and Mercury occurred on earth during the year of Noah’s Flood. The heat from just one of the largest lunar impacts released an estimated 3 x 10[sup]26[/sup] joules; the same sized object falling to earth would release even more energy. [Fezer, pp. 45-46]
• Other. Other possibly significant heat sources are radioactive decay (some Creationists claim that radioactive decay rates were much higher during the Flood to account for consistently old radiometric dates); biological decay (think of the heat released in compost piles); and compression of sediments.

5.6 x 10[sup]26[/sup] joules is enough to heat the oceans to boiling. 3.7 x 10[sup]27[/sup] joules will vaporize them completely. Since steam and air have a lower heat capacity than water, the steam released will quickly raise the temperature of the atmosphere over 1000 C. At these temperatures, much of the atmosphere would boil off the Earth.

• Source: Problems with a Global Flood.
  Spread out over billions of years this heat is not a problem, the earth has time to cool down after each addition of heat. Shorten the timescale to one year and there is not enough time for the heat to dissipate into space so it goes to boil the oceans instead.

rossum

First, although I believe God created it all, I’m not a YEC, so I don’t need all the information in your post.

Second, you might check out the text on the left, in this link, about six days of creation and estimated 15 1/2 billion year age of the universe:
aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

Third, the information in your link didn’t indicate to me, that there had to be meteor strikes during the Deluge. That keeps in mind, the information on the link which I offered to you, of course.

Third, I hold the view that either a comet or a cloud of water from interplanetary space was dumping water on the earth while the bowels of the earth were gushing water out and while it was raining. I hold that the comet went on by, while dumping oodles of water from its tail onto the earth, and that the nucleus did not impact our planet. Since I hold these views, and cannot give an estimate of the size of the interplanetary cloud of water vapor, I think there was enough water to:

1. Float the Ark as high as need be.
2. Cool the earth in case there was any tectonic movement (which movement is not necessary for the scenario I envision).
3. And that evaporation of water, and earth swallowing water back into itself, would allow all the waters from the above sources to recede in the time allowed.

These are my opinions, because I am free to choose to regard the Biblical account as either allegory or history.

Now, I haven’t made fun of your offered calculations et al, so please don’t make fun of my faith and envisioning how it could be so.

Thank you,
Don

 

[TheAtheist]

Well, it depends on what you mean by “liberal” reading. A person of the times would have taken it to mean pretty much what a Jew would , without necessarily subscribing to its truth. No way we can erase from our minds what we believe and see the world as they did. Even apart from religion, our common sense and their common sense are very different.

Not sure if this was addressed to my post, especially due to the fact that i didn’t even use the phrase “liberal reading.”

As for the comment though, i would deny that completely. At the start of the 2nd Temple period, the cultic practices of the Temple itself were the center stage of the Jewish religion. Judaism as we see now is a product of the Council at Yavneh when the Sanhedrin decided to turn an essentially localized religion into something “portable.” This is the first time in recorded history that we see the ascendancy of the written word as being central to the religion as opposed to the actions carried out in the temple. It also may be a first in the world history, as the “weight” of the religion shifts from ritualistic practices (common to many religions at the time) toward intellectual comprehension.

The role of Genesis before and after Yavneh changes completely. On the “before” side, it is a story of Creation, but its never touted as “the” story of Creation. Probably because large sections of it resemble the Enuma Elish which itself feeds into a number of “Flood” creation myths. It was not an uncommon opinion of those who bothered to even think about such matters as the creation of world to put a “?” - for to be absolutely certain about the origins of the universe would imply a kind of knowledge of the mind of God - which would also be borderline sacrilege for many Near eastern religions (unless the person claiming it is some sort of quasi-divinity to begin with). In any event, the story has no central place in the religious life of the Jewish people at that time.

Post-Yavneh is a different story altogether. Denied their temple, cultic practices get shifted out and the importance of the book dominates the religious mind - esp. because of the cultural threat posed by Hellenism. What once could have been considered one of many explanatory stories now becomes a direct article of faith.

And even then, even despite all of this, Genesis is still read as an allegorical and mystical text right down to the Enlightenment. Its always done in a Talmudic framework, which generally strays from the literally meaning of the text (a person of Jewish faith say explain, but to me it sounds more than just a simple elaboration).

I find that curiously at variance with the manner in which the text is deployed in modern times, were to some groups its taken Literal.

Historical Judaism seems quite allergic to rendering certain texts as literal in their tradition. The only ones that get the pass are the Law books, and even then they are appended by the Rabbis.

 

[rossum]

Third, the information in your link didn’t indicate to me, that there had to be meteor strikes during the Deluge.

That is a specific YEC problem. YECs say that the bulk of the geology we see today was formed during the flood year. Hence all the meteorite craters in that geology must also have happened in that single year.

Third, I hold the view that either a comet or a cloud of water from interplanetary space was dumping water on the earth while the bowels of the earth were gushing water out and while it was raining.

A thousand tons of water falling from space will generate the same amount of heat as a thousand tons of rock. Underground water is hot and will heat further as it is forced out at speed from under the earth.

Basically any attempt to compress a 4.5 billion year timescale into 6,000 years or so will run into problems with heat dissipation.

rossum

 

[Mystic_Banana]

I did said it? Really"

Oh dear - now you’re getting to snootily nitpicking grammatical errors… in fact, I think so far all I’ve had on this rather lame thread is ignorance, sneering and po-faced putdowns…

I suppose it’s what I’d expect from militant atheism, or militant evolutionism, for that matter

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Siddhartha:
Just to go back to the original point, if Science and religion undermine each other, I’m not sure if that’s an entirely bad thing. The undermining of the sort of deadly fanaticism which every religion, every ideology, and every pseudo-proven scientific theory (inc. Darwinism) can engender in the intolerantly dogmatic - I think that sounds good to me.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

That is a specific YEC problem. YECs say that the bulk of the geology we see today was formed during the flood year. Hence all the meteorite craters in that geology must also have happened in that single year.

A thousand tons of water falling from space will generate the same amount of heat as a thousand tons of rock. Underground water is hot and will heat further as it is forced out at speed from under the earth.

Basically any attempt to compress a 4.5 billion year timescale into 6,000 years or so will run into problems with heat dissipation.

rossum

And any attempt to scientifically determine ages with any genuine degree of honest conclusivity will collapse in the face of the dearth of anything like a fraction of the required evidence

The biggest problem with YEC is ultimately limiting the whole causal flow to nothing but what is in the Bible, and assuming that was all there is.

By doing so, I think the whole thing comes out as being about as dogmatic as Darwinism

They’d be better off ditching the YE bit, and applying a gap theory or two

And/or assuming rather less scientifically interpretable…

scientifically boggling…

Deus Ex-Machina

Because ultimately, calulating weights of water etc. mean nowt in the face of Almightly God, who could presumably drench away in whatever physics baffling fashions he felt most effective for his purposes

 

[donsnow]

That is a specific YEC problem. YECs say that the bulk of the geology we see today was formed during the flood year. Hence all the meteorite craters in that geology must also have happened in that single year.

A thousand tons of water falling from space will generate the same amount of heat as a thousand tons of rock. Underground water is hot and will heat further as it is forced out at speed from under the earth.

Basically any attempt to compress a 4.5 billion year timescale into 6,000 years or so will run into problems with heat dissipation.

rossum

Hi, rossum -

You write like you haven’t checked out the text on the link I provided. Also, I’m not YEC and have no idea what you’re talking about, in reference to them. OK?

Now, to synopsize the text on the link I offered you: the six days of creation our 15 1/2 billion years are the same amount of relative time.
Also, I remain incredulous about the heat you keep bringing up. I think that’s a theory, and it’s difficult to demonstrate. Oh, the math supports the theory, but the model is awry. I’m sorry, but I think there doesn’t have to be that much heat.

 

[StAnastasia]

Hi, rossum -Now, to synopsize the text on the link I offered you: the six days of creation our 15 1/2 billion years are the same amount of relative time.

Donsnow – 13.7 billion ±

 

[StAnastasia]

Just to go back to the original point, if Science and religion undermine each other, I’m not sure if that’s an entirely bad thing.

They only undermine each other if you subscribe to the conflict thesis popularized in the nineteenth century by Draper and White. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis

 

[StAnastasia]

Third, I hold the view that either a comet or a cloud of water from interplanetary space was dumping water on the earth while the bowels of the earth were gushing water out and while it was raining. I hold that the comet went on by, while dumping oodles of water from its tail onto the earth, and that the nucleus did not impact our planet.

Donsnow, is there such a thing as an interplanetary cloud of water? And is there a comet tail big enough to supply 29,053 feet of water? Is so, where did all the water go after the flood?

 

[Mystic_Banana]

They only undermine each other if you subscribe to the conflict thesis popularized in the nineteenth century by Draper and White. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis

When science is taken as the only method by which we should (be allowed to) interpret the world, all you end up with is dogmatic materialism - it’s what Scientism ultimately is

And Scientism is quite obviously looking to win the fight at the moment, so whether logically speaking science neccesarily conflicts with religion or not, the conflict is clearly being slapped onto the table by the Scientismic contingent like never before - I see it it as much as a power and authority thing as anything else. Isn’t it always?

In case you failed to notice, there are swarthes of people arguing this position diligently - in fact, it’s virtually given legal precendent, and certainly has academic precedent

Darwinism, when taken in it’s complete and utter entitity, is an argument of evolution by chance

One of the reasons I like creationists is that they rather entertainingly pick apart the ready mine of dodgy bits in evolutionism. That no-one within orthodox science appears to do this should tell you something - because those dodgy bits are certainly there

 

[donsnow]

Donsnow – 13.7 billion ±

Hi, StAnastasia -

Nag, nag, nag.

OK, then, the currently accepted consensus figure for the known age of the universe. Is that better?

 

[donsnow]

Donsnow, is there such a thing as an interplanetary cloud of water? And is there a comet tail big enough to supply 29,053 feet of water? Is so, where did all the water go after the flood?

Hi, StAnastasia -

That it would be one heckuva comet’s tail to provide all that water, was why I postulated an interplanetary cloud of water. There are chemicals in interplanetary space. I’ve never heard anybody else postulate there could be a water vapor or cloud of water out there, 'though. (I got that there interplanetary cloud of water out of my fertile imagination).

As far as where all that water went, like I wrote, evaporation and swallowed by the bowels of the earth. If and only if there were great heat but not too hot for Noah et al to survive, then that would have evaporated more than just wind action.
I really don’t want to postulate another planetoid coming by, to pull the water out of the atmosphere, even with my limited math, I know that just doesn’t work.

 

[StAnastasia]

Hi, StAnastasia - Nag, nag, nag. OK, then, the currently accepted consensus figure for the known age of the universe. Is that better?

Donsnow, I was mainly joking, although when I finished give a paper at a conference last year using “13.7 billion” Joel Primack (UC Santa Cruz) corrected me, saying it was 13.715 billion years. How that precision is obtained I have no idea!