Darwinism in schools?

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Kaninchen said:
Why would it not be possible to allow parents to opt their children out of learning about evolution and have somebody come in and teach them about creationism?
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It happens all the time in Sunday schools. As far as public schools, they can teach what they want regarding science, but should take philosophy, and references to religion/ supernatural creation out of the science completely.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
It happens all the time in Sunday schools. As far as public schools, they can teach what they want regarding science, but should take philosophy, and references to religion/ supernatural creation out of the science completely.
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So, what happens when parents don’t want their child to learn about evolution?
 
mytruepower2 said:
I don’t think it’s wrong to teach people a little bit about the theory of Darwinian evolution, provided that it’s taught as just that; a -theory.- I myself have no faith-based objections to the idea of evolution, but I do consider it to be scientifically-unprovable, to say nothing of being just so fantastically improbable as to make it scientifically irresponsible to take it for granted.

Until some final proof can be brought forth that evolution is really possible, we shouldn’t be teaching it as though it were fact, and even if we could prove that it was possible, that would do nothing to prove that it produced human beings. This is something else that would need to be proven. There are simply too many vast differences between man and chimpanzees (the highest primate,) to simply leave the theory as-is. Eight major evolutionary steps would be needed simultaneously to accomplish this “jump” from monkey to man, and each is so unbelievably improbable, that for even one of them to happen by chance would take so long, that by the time it was done, the Earth’s sun would have already expanded and consumed the planets surrounding it.

In other words, by all the laws of probability that we know of, evolution would be a miracle, even if we could prove it to be correct. Make of that what you will.
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Evolution is not empirically provable. By that alone evolution should not be taught in the science classroom. I have repeatedly put forward that a mandatory philosophy class should be part of school curriculum.

Essential reading…a trillion trillion years or more

http://assets.biologicinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/transitions.jpg
 
PumpkinSeed said:
Evolution is backed up by overwhelming evidence. It is taught in all major colleges around the world. Most people who say that evolution didn’t happen are the ones who have not studied it. (not all but some) To know so little about it and declare that its false is just sad. If i recall correctly, even the Pope said that it is scientific and the church accepts it. I think we can also accept that God’s time is much different from ours. Anybody who truly believes that the world was created in six 24 hour days (in our time) is using only faith. That’s not scientific and it should be kept out of science class. That can be taught in religious schools, but it is not scientific in anyway whatsoever.
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Being taught in colleges does not automatically “make it science” or qualify it. What do you know about it? Let me give you the math for evolution: Nobody x Nothing = Everything.

It is called the “theory” for a reason. It’s not the "fact of evolution. God made a man and woman. He has said so in his word. The church does not deny creation, it is open to the possibility of theistic evolution which is not a mandate from the Pope.
To create LIFE would require much more than raw energy and materials; it would require a huge amount of complex, organized INFORMATION.
 
To LeafByNiggle,

Here, on a regular basis, the phrase “evolution is a fact” appears. I’d be glad to PM you the next time another example appears 🙂

You don’t seem to understand that there are those, including scientists, who deny facts that occurred in history. Jesus Christ and His works being one. And it is very clear to me that in most cases, people are using the word theory and fact to mean the same thing. What concerns most Christians, and many non-theists, is that this theory becomes carved in stone in the minds of all. That is why there are constant statements - as opposed to honest questions - that wish to check on our compliance or conformity to the theory. Any idea why?

Peace,
Ed
 
johnnyjones said:
Being taught in colleges does not automatically “make it science” or qualify it. What do you know about it? Let me give you the math for evolution: Nobody x Nothing = Everything.

It is called the “theory” for a reason. It’s not the "fact of evolution. God made a man and woman. He has said so in his word. The church does not deny creation, it is open to the possibility of theistic evolution which is not a mandate from the Pope.
To create LIFE would require much more than raw energy and materials; it would require a huge amount of complex, organized INFORMATION.
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I sense some anger or frustration. First I want you to know, that just because I accept evolution does not mean I am throwing away God. It just means that this is the way he chose to make life. What is so wrong with that? It is backed up by plenty of evidence. The theory of evolution has passed the test time and time again.
 
edwest2 said:
On the contrary regarding your last statement, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences exists as such an authority. The Church regularly makes pronouncements for and against certain scientific technologies and it cannot make such pronouncements without authoritative research to back up its statements. I believe that the Pope, understanding his position, is not prone to making guesses when he speaks. This subject is a long-standing issue between the Church and others who have made it their business to make certain Catholics, and other Christians, accept this.

I think the Pope spoke correctly regarding this issue, and it is everybody’s business, especially for Catholics. The truth about human origins is not entirely contained within scientific explanations.

Regarding theories, allow me to respectfully point out gravity. We know precisely how it works, even if we don’t know if gravitons exist, for example. If I was an astronaut chosen to go to the moon in the 1960s, I would immediately quit if the project director told me, “Well, gravity is just a theory. We really can’t tell you what’ll happen once you get to the moon.”

Respectfully,
Ed
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Some call gravity a “theory” others do not. Gravity is law and has not been disproved. Evolution is not law.
 
PumpkinSeed said:
I sense some anger or frustration. First I want you to know, that just because I accept evolution does not mean I am throwing away God. It just means that this is the way he chose to make life. What is so wrong with that? It is backed up by plenty of evidence. The theory of evolution has passed the test time and time again.
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No hostility, just passion. Sometimes it is necessary to be stern. If you believe it (evolution) and God than you must do some reconciling. We know perfectly well that if you leave matter to itself, it does not organize itself, in spite of all the efforts in recent years to prove that it does. God made a man fully formed, this is the teachings of scripture. The chemical processes that govern our world are also God given. The key scripture is" let us make man in our image". Would God need some sub-species first, that is not his image. His image. We are body, soul, spirit. A half created or simian man would be missing two of those elements… Contemplate that.
 
Kaninchen said:
So, what happens when parents don’t want their child to learn about evolution?
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They can and do teach them that God created everything but they also teach them that the the theory assigns to God no causal agency in the development of life. The Catholic Church teaches that God created. That is of primary importance. The other thing the Church does is to preach the Gospel to all nations. This means that the fully man and fully God, Jesus Christ, intervened in history, and worked miracles without the use of science. And that he rose from the dead is a fact - an intersection between fact and faith, as clearly stated here:

bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-14.htm

Peace,
Ed
 
johnnyjones said:
No hostility, just passion. Sometimes it is necessary to be stern. If you believe it (evolution) and God than you must do some reconciling. We know perfectly well that if you leave matter to itself, it does not organize itself, in spite of all the efforts in recent years to prove that it does. God made a man fully formed, this is the teachings of scripture. The chemical processes that govern our world are also God given. The key scripture is" let us make man in our image". Would God need some sub-species first, that is not his image. His image. We are body, soul, spirit. A half created or simian man would be missing two of those elements… Contemplate that.
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Johnny, this is a belief you have. The topic of the thread was about putting this in schools. It should stay out of schools because it is not scientific. To say God made everything in 6 24 hour days is not scientific. There is no evidence to back it up, & it is not testable. It is not science, it is a belief, which is why it should stay out of public school science class. Now they can feel free to teach this in private schools, but that is where it should stay.
 
rossum said:
Is slavery allowed? What was the Christian answer in the New Testament during the Roman Empire? What is the Christian answer now? All sorts of things change, including our interpretation of Revelation. Consider the different Catholic attitudes to Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus over the years.

As our knowledge of the universe changes, so science changes its theories that describe the universe. Science changes as our knowledge grows. That is the strength of science, and why it has been so successful. It rejects what does not match reality.

rossum
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Totally flawed argument. Slavery was cultural as it refers to scripture. As well, we are talking core issues. The trinity, the nature of God, the crucifixion, the resurrection are all core teachings that have not wavered in the church. Although those opposed to the church may have bent the positions, they remain the same. This can not be said of evolution which keeps using the word" design" but has no designer.
 
Farsight001 said:
Yes, evolution is a fact. There is the theory of evolution and the fact of evolution. In science, a theory is a body of evidence that explains a fact. Without a fact of evolution there would be no theory of evolution. This kind of “knowledge” is exactly why we shouldn’t be teaching ID too - it just makes people more ignorant.
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I haven’t seen textbooks and other materials writing the "fact " of evolution… The only thing more often done is the word “theory” is omitted as to bolster matter organizing itself (from nothing I might add).
 
PumpkinSeed said:
Johnny, this is a belief you have. The topic of the thread was about putting this in schools. It should stay out of schools because it is not scientific. To say God made everything in 6 24 hour days is not scientific. There is no evidence to back it up, & it is not testable. It is not science, it is a belief, which is why it should stay out of public school science class. Now they can feel free to teach this in private schools, but that is where it should stay.
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There are two creation stories. One from Revelation the other from materialism. One from God, the other from the god of BUC.
 
edwest2 said:
They can and do teach them that God created everything but they also teach them that the the theory assigns to God no causal agency in the development of life. The Catholic Church teaches that God created. That is of primary importance. The other thing the Church does is to preach the Gospel to all nations. This means that the fully man and fully God, Jesus Christ, intervened in history, and worked miracles without the use of science. And that he rose from the dead is a fact - an intersection between fact and faith, as clearly stated here:Ed
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That’s all very nice, I’m sure, but my question was about what went on in schools, not at home or about what the Catholic Church does or believes.

So, it’s about what would be wrong with parents opting their children out of evolution in school. Remember I live in a country where there are publicly-funded schools of all sorts (including a very large number of Catholic schools) so my perspective is, of course, different from that of an American.
 
PumpkinSeed said:
Johnny, this is a belief you have. The topic of the thread was about putting this in schools. It should stay out of schools because it is not scientific. To say God made everything in 6 24 hour days is not scientific. There is no evidence to back it up, & it is not testable. It is not science, it is a belief, which is why it should stay out of public school science class. Now they can feel free to teach this in private schools, but that is where it should stay.
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Thats your argument? A God that can create a universe can’t put the properties of it together in 6 days? Ludicrous. Evolution is testable? The information, within the cell my man, it just isn’t there for no reason. It was DESIGNED, that’s a word those indoctrinated with evolutionary beliefs widely use with no knowledge of the source except matter and energy. You need a code installed. Where’s your installer?
 
Kaninchen said:
That’s all very nice, I’m sure, but my question was about what went on in schools, not at home or about what the Catholic Church does or believes.

So, it’s about what would be wrong with parents opting their children out of evolution in school. Remember I live in a country where there are publicly-funded schools of all sorts (including a very large number of Catholic schools) so my perspective is, of course, different from that of an American.
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Unless priests or nuns are protesting in front of the schools in your country, you have nothing to be concerned about. It’s not happening in the US either. Parents can certainly inquire at their school, in whatever country they live in, if it would be permissable to opt their children out of classes that specifically taught evolution.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Unless priests or nuns are protesting in front of the schools in your country,
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Quite why they’d be protesting outside Catholic schools, I can’t imagine.
Parents can certainly inquire at their school, in whatever country they live in, if it would be permissable to opt their children out of classes that specifically taught evolution.
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I’d have thought it a way forward for the US where evolution does seem to be such a problem for so many.
 
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