Darwinism in schools?

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Completely untrue. We are on average a foot taller. Our pinkies are shorter. We have less hair. The list goes on and on, and that’s just the last 2000 years, let alone another 250k.

Do you mind perhaps speaking the truth at least once? Thanks.
Did you notice I linked a source?

Here is the beginning:

NEW HAVEN, CT- A survey of genetic information contained in the Y chromosomes of modern day men suggests that Homo sapiens descended from a single group of male ancestors, and that this occurred more recently than previously believed.
Researchers at Yale University evaluated samples of DNA from 38 men from all over the world. Surprisingly. no sequence variations were found in a 729-base pair intron near a gene thought to be involved in sperm or testes development. In contrast, the corresponding sequence in gorillas, chimpanzees, and orangutans did show significant polymorphisms.
Based on the assumption that this lack of sequence variation is attributable to ancestry and not other causes, the researchers estimate the divergence occurred about 270,000 years ago. Previous estimates have put mankind’s origins much further back in time.

more…
 
Buffalo, the link isn’t opening on my computer (I don’t know about others).
 
I need some sources. ( I know Behe’s position so skip that one)
If you know Behe’s position, then why do you even bother with the IC argument? IC can evolve. The presence of an IC system is not a barrier to evolution.

You are just recycling a PRATT. It has already been refuted, and you are telling us that you know that it has been refuted, byits own originator no less. Why do you persist in repeating a point that is not correct.

I might as well harp on about Catholics all being cannibals. Your argument is of the same order, and just as ineffective.

rossum
 
No animal except a bird has ever been known to have feathers.
You really do have a problem here. Your lack of relevant knowledge is leading you into error. We have many fossils of feathered dinosaurs. Once again, your creationist sources are lying to you. I strongly suggest that you find better sources, that will not mislead you.

Here is an illustration:

http://blogs.discovery.com/.a/6a00d8341bf67c53ef014e8742250d970d-800wi

Sinornithosaurus

That is a non-avian dinosaur, with feathers.

rossum
 
Earlier, you stated that if God was recognized as being part of science then this issue would diminish in importance.
Is this what you mean? I said in post #110:
When people begin seeing evolution as a wondrous act of God then I think you will see this opposition to the theory of evolution begin to subside.”
If you are referring to some other quote of mine then please correct me. But assuming this is the quote you meant, then you misunderstood my point. I was not saying that the truth or falsity of evolution would diminish in importance. I was saying that opposition to evolution as a valid theory would diminish.

But your question, which I have been trying to understand better, was what is the harm in disbelieving evolution? Well, if you respect truth you would not ask that question. You would only ask “is it true?”. Creationists are all too happy to spend enormous amounts of time studying evidence that might support their view, and there is nothing wrong with that. But you should allow that same privilege to the other side - the freedom to pursue the truth.
 
If you know Behe’s position, then why do you even bother with the IC argument? IC can evolve. The presence of an IC system is not a barrier to evolution.

You are just recycling a PRATT. It has already been refuted, and you are telling us that you know that it has been refuted, byits own originator no less. Why do you persist in repeating a point that is not correct.

I might as well harp on about Catholics all being cannibals. Your argument is of the same order, and just as ineffective.

rossum
Take IC, specificity and couple it with necessity. Take protein and DNA, which came first?
 
Take IC, specificity and couple it with necessity. Take protein and DNA, which came first?
Do you even speak English, or are you pulling your words at random from a bingo ball machine? Seriously, you make no sense whatsoever half the time.

Take IC and specificity and couple them with necessity? Is that what you mean? And if so, perhaps you should elaborate on how that should be done and why it should be done. And why does it matter whether protein or DNA came first? You need to use your words, man.
 
I like how the argument for some people is god and no evo vs evo and no god, while for other perople its god and no evo and god and evo. we should all relize we all think god had a role, actuly most of it. also people are changing we are taller then we where 500
years ago.
 
Macro-evolution vs. micro-evolution/adaptations is not a real distinction. They are a difference of degree and not kind.
**
12] Macro-evolution **is** nothing but lots and lots of “micro-evolution”!** Such a point of view is simply untenable, and it denotes a complete misunderstanding of the nature of function. Macroevolution, in all its possible meanings, implies the emergence of new complex functions. A function is not the simplistic sum of a great number of “elementary” sub-functions: sub-functions have to be interfaced and coherently integrated to give a smoothly performing whole. In the same way, macroevolution is not the mere sum of elementary microevolutionary events.
A computer program, for instance, is not the sum of simple instructions. Even if it is composed ultimately of simple instructions, the information-processing capacity of the software depends on the special, complex order of those instructions. You will never obtain a complex computer program by randomly assembling elementary instructions or modules of such instructions.
In the same way, macroevolution cannot be a linear, simple or random accumulation of microevolutionary steps.
Microevolution, in all its known examples (antibiotic resistance, and similar) is made of simple variations, which are selectable for the immediate advantage connected to them. But a new functional protein cannot be built by simple selectable variations, no more than a poem can be created by random variations of single letters, or a software written by a sequence of elementary (bit-like) random variations, each of them improving the “function” of the software.
Function simply does not work that way. Function derives from higher levels of order and connection, which cannot emerge from a random accumulation of micro-variations. As the complexity (number of bits) of the functional sequence increases, the search space increases exponentially, rapidly denying any chance of random exploration of the space itself.
****13] Real Scientists Do Not Use Terms Like Microevolution or Macroevolution ****

The best answer to this claim, which is little more than an urban legend, is to cite relevant cases. First, textbooks:
(4th Ed.) *Biology *states: “macroevolution: Evolutionary change on a grand scale, encompassing the origin of novel designs, evolutionary trends, adaptive radiation, and mass extinction.” [By contrast, this book defines “microevolution as “a change in the gene pool of a population over a succession of generations”]
Futuyma’s Evolutionary Biology, in the edition used by a senior member at UD for an upper division College course, states, “In Chapters 23 through 25, we will analyze the principles of MACROEVOLUTION, that is, the origin and diversification of higher taxa.” (pg. 447, emphasis in original). [Futuyma contrasts “microevolution” – “slight, short-term evolutionary changes within species.”]
In his 1989 McGraw Hill textbook, Macroevolutionary Dynamics, Niles Eldredge admits that “[m]ost families, orders, classes, and phyla appear rather suddenly in the fossil record, often without anatomically intermediate forms smoothly interlinking evolutionarily derived descendant taxa with their presumed ancestors.” (pg. 22.) In Macroevolution: Pattern and Process (Steven M. Stanley, The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998 version), we read that, “[t]he known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphological transition and hence offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid.” (pg. 39)
The scientific journal literature also uses the terms “macroevolution” or “microevolution.”
In 1980, Roger Lewin reported in Science on a major meeting at the University of Chicago that sought to reconcile biologists’ understandings of evolution with the findings of paleontology:
“The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.” (Roger Lewin, “Evolutionary Theory Under Fire,” Science, Vol. 210:883-887, Nov. 1980.)
**Two years earlier, Robert E. Ricklefs had written in an article in Science entitled “Paleontologists confronting macroevolution,” contending: **
“The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. … apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground.” (Science, Vol. 199:58-60, Jan. 6, 1978.)
So, if such terms are currently in disfavor, that is clearly because they highlight problems with the Modern Evolutionary theory that it is currently impolitic to draw attention to. In the end, the terms are plainly legitimate and meaningful, as they speak to an obvious and real distinction between (a) the population changes that are directly observationally confirmed, “microevolution,” and (b) the major proposed body-plan transformation level changes that are not: “macroevolution.”
 
Is this what you mean? I said in post #110:
When people begin seeing evolution as a wondrous act of God then I think you will see this opposition to the theory of evolution begin to subside.”
If you are referring to some other quote of mine then please correct me. But assuming this is the quote you meant, then you misunderstood my point. I was not saying that the truth or falsity of evolution would diminish in importance. I was saying that opposition to evolution as a valid theory would diminish.

But your question, which I have been trying to understand better, was what is the harm in disbelieving evolution? Well, if you respect truth you would not ask that question. You would only ask “is it true?”. Creationists are all too happy to spend enormous amounts of time studying evidence that might support their view, and there is nothing wrong with that. But you should allow that same privilege to the other side - the freedom to pursue the truth.
“wondrous act of God” is not supported by any scientific document. Since I’m certain you’ve noticed the clear wall of separation created between belief and science, or to put it another way: science has tangible evidence, belief does not, then I doubt any progress will be made. Some are attempting to reconcile an interpretation of scientific information with the Bible. And some of the same people insist the Bible is not and should not be considered a scientific text. But, that does not prevent some from presenting a fantasy to believers. The following is a summary of one: “One day, a pair of hominids or nearly humans were endowed with souls by God (evidence ?).” And a variant: “One day, the neurological development of early hominids progressed to the point where they could detect god/gods (evidence ?).”

I once created a little joke among my friends about people suggesting that they needed my permission to allow them to do something. So, as a joke, I created my permission hotline. People could call me to get my permission to do whatever. I never got any calls. Not one. So, I guess people around the world are doing whatever they want right now, without my permission:)

My point is, the more I see the constant debate about this, and the more I see counter-arguments and research (thank you, buffalo), I’m more inclined to think that most of the ideas about how a proposed process worked did not happen as currently understood. That is, if such a process did occur.

Science is conducted by men and men have biases, which, if they are leading scientists, they pass along to their students. That was abundantly clear in the link I provided to the article that appeared in Nature. I believe I have found the truth and clear evidence of bias at least among leading scientists. I used to trust science and scientists more. I trust science less today, but not out of some Creationist statement but my own research.

hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674047143

And I still cannot understand why Catholics here are regularly quizzed about their compliance to this. It doesn’t make any sense.

Peace,
Ed
 
A computer program, for instance, is not the sum of simple instructions. Even if it is composed ultimately of simple instructions, the information-processing capacity of the software depends on the special, complex order of those instructions. You will never obtain a complex computer program by randomly assembling elementary instructions or modules of such instructions.
That is factually untrue. All computer programs can be simplified down to the Turing machine, which is almost mind-bogglingly simple.

You need to check your sources.
 
That is factually untrue. All computer programs can be simplified down to the Turing machine, which is almost mind-bogglingly simple.

You need to check your sources.
I am curious. Will you show me?
 
Take IC, specificity and couple it with necessity. Take protein and DNA, which came first?
Neither. RNA came first. RNA can store information, like DNA but it doesn’t do it as well as DNA. RNA can catalyse reaction like proteins, but not as well as proteins. Since RNA can perform both functions, neither DNA nor proteins are required.

It is not clear whether DNA or proteins were added first. Both are improvements on the RNA only system: DNA improves information storage, and proteins improve catalysis. Given that both are improvements, then natural selection can be expected to be involved.

rossum
 
rossum,
Study of ribosome evolution challenges ‘RNA World’ hypothesis

…“I’m convinced that the RNA world (hypothesis) is not correct,” Caetano-Anollés said. “That world of nucleic acids could not have existed if not tethered to proteins.”
Dr Caetano-Anollés has an interesting hypothesis. As I am sure you are aware, not all scientific hypotheses prove to be correct. I note that the source you are quoting does not mention Intelligent Design as an alternative; he is working within the standard framework on abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis is far less well established than evolution. We do not yet have a theory of abiogenesis, all we have are a number of likely looking hypotheses. I would point out that ID does not even have that much to explain the origin of life.

rossum
 
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